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Federal government and BC NDP signed an agreement handing over a large tract of land to FN Lake Babine Band


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We often hear Trudeau and Liberals toss around the word reconciliation and now we frequently hear politicians at all levels routinely make land acknowledgements at the beginning of a speech or meeting.  But how much have we heard about what this actually all means?  I recently discovered that the Federal and Provincial BC government signed a three way deal called the Lake Babine Foundation Agreement to begin the process of handing over about 22,000 hectares of land to the Lake Babine band.  This band comprises about 2,500 people in about five different FN communities around Babine Lake although some of the communities are only occupied seasonally by a small number of people.  Babine Lake is the longest lake in B.C. at about 110 km. and is situated in northwest B.C.  I have fished on Babine Lake many times over the years.  The people who live in a small community or have recreation cabins/homes on Babine Lake at a place called Smithers Landing were notified after the fact and invited to attend a public meeting in Smithers to hear about this agreement about six years later and make their own opinions known at the meeting.  You can watch them raise their questions and concerns on the video link below.  This was after the fact.  Apparently the fine points of the deal are still to be worked out. The main agreement had already been made between the federal government, the province of B.C. and the Lake Babine band in 2014 without consulting or including the non native people who live in the area and the town of Smithers which is about 90 km from the lake.  Of course the people who live or have cabins or homes at the lake are greatly concerned.   But it crossed my mind that this may be just the beginning.  This is being done under the claim of reconciliation.   There is talk by the government that the Lake Babine band will receive valuable timber lands that could be used for logging and hopefully they will get into the logging business.   But there are a lot of concerns of how this will affect non natives in that area who use the area for recreation, hunting, guiding outfitters, and other things.  Will the natives block access to the area or through the area for one thing?  The value of the land plus about 50 million in cash included in the agreement will come to a total value of about 200 million dollars.  For 2,500 people that works out to an equivalent value of $80,000 for each man, woman and child.  But the bigger question comes to mind.  Is this a sign of things to come in countless other communities across B.C. and Canada?  Is this part of what politicians mean by "reconciliation" without actually spelling it out.  We know the 94 calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission are mind boggling and completely beyond affordability or reason for Canadians.  Read a little of the 94 calls to action through Google and see the endless demands that are included.

It should also be noted that the politicians that make these decisions to hand over large tracts of land do not live in the area and are not personally effected themselves.  They have no skin in this issue.  It costs the politicians nothing, but could well have unknown impacts on local people, which we do not yet understand.

Babine Lake – Smithers Landing – Fishing Northwest British Columbia (fishingnbc.ca)

Edited by blackbird
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, herbie said:

Exactly. And who exactly are the "local people" you're concerned about?

 

The local people are the non-natives who live around Smithers Landing which is on Babine Lake and others who own cabins or vacation homes there.  Also, the people in the town of Smithers and surrounding areas.  Nobody knows how this large land grant in the Babine Lake area along with self-government for the Babine Lake band will effect everyone else.  I lived in the area for nearly 30 years and know the area fairly well.  Lots of non-native people hunt and fish in the whole area as well as guide outfitters work in the area.  Lots of Americans and Europeans travel into the area to fish and hunt and stay in one or more of the fishing / hunting lodges.  Not exactly sure how this self-government thing will work and whether non-natives will be prevented from using or entering certain areas.  Lots of people feel we are all Canadians and the distant governments in Ottawa and Victoria and their bureaucrats should not be dividing people up and creating certain privileges for certain people without consulting with and giving the local people any say.  The non-natives get along well with the natives.  But distant political outsiders are dictating or creating a new kind of order for political reasons.  There are thousands of non-natives who live in that part of the northwest who should have had a say in all this and know exactly what is being proposed.  This area is part of the provincial and federal riding area for NDP politicians who seem to have their own agenda and not interested in consulting the local non-natives in their riding.

Edited by blackbird
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Seeing as how there's only one mountain separating Babine Lake and I, I'm obligated to point out that 50% of the "local people" are native. Who can and do run fishing and hunting lodges and hire you and your next door neighbour's truck or dozer or snowplow.

And I'm unsure of exactly how things will work out, but they won't be any worse than the shitshow that's always been. No more 'centralizing' the MOF and pulling 75 jobs, no more closing the mill and shipping to a supermill somewhere else to cut 500 more, no more raw log exports.

Maybe better fire practices too and just perhaps we could see some local stuff in our stores. I'm sick of seeing nothing but frozen Vietnamese sewer fish, frozen New Zealand lamb and Alberta scab meat as our only choices when I can see sheep and cows from my window and the only road goes to Rupert.

Take a chance, who cares if your paycheque is issued by Borg Inc. or the Band Office.

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On 6/23/2022 at 2:01 PM, blackbird said:

Is this a sign of things to come in countless other communities

Yes.  I remember a conversation I had with a guy who's lake cabin (not on Babine Lake) is part of treaty negotiations.  He lamented the time and money he'd put into the Crown leased property.  Thirty years it had been in his family, and now he might lose it.  I couldn't help but think of the FN who'd been on the land for 1000's of years, and lost it through treachery by the Canadian Government.

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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Yes.  I remember a conversation I had with a guy who's lake cabin (not on Babine Lake) is part of treaty negotiations.  He lamented the time and money he'd put into the Crown leased property.  Thirty years it had been in his family, and now he might lose it.  I couldn't help but think of the FN who'd been on the land for 1000's of years, and lost it through treachery by the Canadian Government.

That's the problem with crown lease land you never own it out right, his family should have known that this could happen.

That being said do today's Canadians have to pay for something that happened more than 150 years ago. Maybe we could give back all the land, plus 10 white people as slaves to every first nation person in the name of reconciliation of course...divide the nation of Canada into the thousands of tribal areas that once existed. and we can all live off the land and live happily ever after... Just a question do other tribes have to give back land they took off from other tribes during raids or tribal wars and how far back in history do we go..

I don't think anyone is proud of all our past history, but where do you draw the line in reconciliation. and will it solve anything? 

Edited by Army Guy
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On 6/25/2022 at 4:08 PM, Army Guy said:

for something that happened more than 150 years ago

The last residential school closed in 1996.  Indigenous women were sterilized, without consent, until 1976.  Thousands of children were taken from their parents, families and communities in the 60s.  Native people were not even allowed to leave the reserve, unless they had a pass, until the 1950s.

Reconciliation isn't just about land taken through treachery, but for all the ways in which the Canadian government oppressed indigenous people for generations, up to the present.  

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11 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The last residential school closed in 1996.  Indigenous women were sterilized, without consent, until 1976.  Thousands of children were taken from their parents, families, and communities in the 60s.  Native people were not even allowed to leave the reserve, unless they had a pass, until the 1950s.

Reconciliation isn't just about land taken through treachery, but for all the ways in which the Canadian government oppressed indigenous people for generations, up to the present.  

And the solution is what exactly, pay them off, land claims alone reach over a trillion... do we break up Canada and give them back the land, ship every Canadian citizen to the US,? What happened is tragic, but nothing we do is going to undo any of it. the path forward is what?

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On 6/24/2022 at 8:47 PM, blackbird said:

The local people are the non-natives who live around Smithers Landing which is on Babine Lake and others who own cabins or vacation homes there.

I can tell you one thing - I would rather see the whole Smithers area off limits to non-natives and their businesses than  have it all destroyed by them in front of my eyes.

All activities you mentioned are aggressive activities with a big impact - hunting, fishing, forestry, taking over the land for "recreational cabins".

Why would I care what Americans and Europeans come here to play and hunt animals and catch fish? They come because they have already soiled their diapers - their forests are gone and nothing lives in them and their polluted rivers.

Stop the whining - you fished babine lake before , be happy with it.  If you created contacts among the natives maybe you will be allowed back again.

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10 hours ago, Army Guy said:

And the solution is what exactly, pay them off, land claims alone reach over a trillion... do we break up Canada and give them back the land, ship every Canadian citizen to the US,? What happened is tragic, but nothing we do is going to undo any of it. the path forward is what?

I'm ok with reconciliation and reparation. Good for us, as a country, making some effort to make things right.  

So what would you do?  Give them a few blankets?  Dismiss the past, and call them down because you don't understand what our 'intervention' into their lives has done to them?  Assume they drink and use drugs because they're just bad people?   Assume they stay on reserve because it's such easy living?  

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11 hours ago, dialamah said:

The last residential school closed in 1996.  Indigenous women were sterilized, without consent, until 1976.  Thousands of children were taken from their parents, families and communities in the 60s.  Native people were not even allowed to leave the reserve, unless they had a pass, until the 1950s.

Reconciliation isn't just about land taken through treachery, but for all the ways in which the Canadian government oppressed indigenous people for generations, up to the present.  

The long and the short of this silliness is...the natives got exactly what they wanted. Now they want more because...they segregated themselves and now find they are lacking in creature comforts...and necessities.

So here's my reconciliation proposal.

Native peoples...You've all done some self-destructive things to yourselves...and the evil white people did some destructive things to you. We've done our best to make life in our society comfortable for you, and a lot of you still refuse this open invitation to join society as equals.

Thus...I must assume you do not wish to join Canadian society. And I can accept that. I would ask that you accept that your segregation and isolation is now completely self-imposed. Thus...

Enjoy your isolation...and have a nice day.!

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40 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I don't need to read past this line; your ignorance shows clearly.

Really? And tell me...what do you know about the treaties?

Ya know...we waste more time and effort catering to the "feelings" of some people, than you can imagine. If it makes you "feel" better, give your home to a local native family.

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11 hours ago, cougar said:

I can tell you one thing - I would rather see the whole Smithers area off limits to non-natives and their businesses than  have it all destroyed by them in front of my eyes.

All activities you mentioned are aggressive activities with a big impact - hunting, fishing, forestry, taking over the land for "recreational cabins".

Why would I care what Americans and Europeans come here to play and hunt animals and catch fish? They come because they have already soiled their diapers - their forests are gone and nothing lives in them and their polluted rivers.

Stop the whining - you fished babine lake before , be happy with it.  If you created contacts among the natives maybe you will be allowed back again.

LOL...

Yes yes...kick all the evil white people out of the town they built.

Dear Gawd...why do you let people like this learn to type?

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6 hours ago, dialamah said:

I'm ok with reconciliation and reparation. Good for us, as a country, making some effort to make things right.  

So what would you do?  Give them a few blankets?  Dismiss the past, and call them down because you don't understand what our 'intervention' into their lives has done to them?  Assume they drink and use drugs because they're just bad people?   Assume they stay on reserve because it's such easy living?  

We are not making anything right, we have said sorry a million times, we have given away vast sums of money, we have agreed to give some land back...and yet what has changed Dialamah, nothing really...except make a good portion of FN people dependent on government.

Nothing this government or any government can do to reverse any of it...no amount of money, no amount of land, the government will continue to operate like it always has, with the entire land mass of Canada. If it wants it it will take it, we just delay action because there is nothing in it for the government. 

They are not bad people, they have been beaten like a dog, we force them to stay on reserves to get tax-free money and support bad fiscal policies that FN nations have. 

Here is an idea, we stop all that, no more special treatment, they receive what every other Canadian is entitled to. We could give them self-government, We could create their own schools, their own towns, and industry. we let them stand on their own 2 feet, we give them a purpose, we give them an opportunity, and we stop all these land treaties, and welfare-type payments to each FN person, we give them an opportunity to be independent. 

There are many FN people who are successful in our world, so it can be done, and who better to do that than them.  

 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, dialamah said:

The last residential school closed in 1996.  Indigenous women were sterilized, without consent, until 1976.  Thousands of children were taken from their parents, families and communities in the 60s.  Native people were not even allowed to leave the reserve, unless they had a pass, until the 1950s.

Reconciliation isn't just about land taken through treachery, but for all the ways in which the Canadian government oppressed indigenous people for generations, up to the present.  

Again, why should Canadians living today have to pay for mistakes made back in history?  I don't agree with a lot of the things that were done to FNs back generations ago, but I and my parents and grandparents had nothing to do with it.  How is giving chunks of crown land and millions of dollars to native bands going to be fair to generations of non-natives who live in the areas and work going to solve past mistakes?  I don't think it is solving anything.  Just creating a new set of problems.

We should not forget that reparations for specific harms done in residential schools have been paid and continue to be paid.  How far do you carry that?  If you go by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's recommendations, Canada must give the land back to the natives and pay billions of dollars for everything imaginable.  Hardly a realistic proposition.  People have always migrated from one part of the world to another.  That is the history of the world.  Endless generations should not burdened forever with paying compensation for what earlier settlers did.  Have you ever heard of the Norwegians, Scandinavians, paying Britain for the Vikings invading the UK and all the atrocities they committed?  I didn't think so.

Edited by blackbird
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17 hours ago, cougar said:

I can tell you one thing - I would rather see the whole Smithers area off limits to non-natives and their businesses than  have it all destroyed by them in front of my eyes.

All activities you mentioned are aggressive activities with a big impact - hunting, fishing, forestry, taking over the land for "recreational cabins".

Why would I care what Americans and Europeans come here to play and hunt animals and catch fish? They come because they have already soiled their diapers - their forests are gone and nothing lives in them and their polluted rivers.

Stop the whining - you fished babine lake before , be happy with it.  If you created contacts among the natives maybe you will be allowed back again.

 The Smithers area is a very advanced town of thousands of people and they produce a lot of lumber, mining  in northwest B.C.  and lots of dairy farming in the valley.  If you whine about them being there, you should prove your sincerity by stopping drinking of milk products and stop living in homes built with lumber from white man's sawmills.  Also stop reading and using paper that comes from pulp mills and stop using other products that were produced by white man in B.C. because it was all produced on what natives claim is their "traditional territory".  In fact what are you doing here living on their traditional territory?

 

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Some of those things happened in your lifetime.

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6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Some of those things happened in your lifetime.

Nothing happened that I was aware of or approved of or had any part of.  Lots of my tax dollars have gone to support FNs but I don't complain about that.  I just think there has to be a limit and your NDP, Liberal friends are not rational or reasonable about the subject.

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2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 In fact what are you doing here living on their traditional territory?

 

You see, this is the only really good question you posted.

And this one is not for me to answer but the f*ing Canadian government.     Same guys that bring millions of people from overseas to continue their Ponzi scheme games without giving a rat's ass what the FN's want to do with their land and if they agree or disagree.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, cougar said:

You see, this is the only really good question you posted.

And this one is not for me to answer but the f*ing Canadian government.     Same guys that bring millions of people from overseas to continue their Ponzi scheme games without giving a rat's ass what the FN's want to do with their land and if they agree or disagree.

Immigration is just life.  Nobody has sole claim to the land. God created it for everyone.  You just need to learn there are finer details of how everything must work.  Everyone has a right to life, and to the fruits of their labour.  Nobody has a right to expect some other demographic to support them forever and give everything to them on a gold platter simply because they had ancestors in a province or country before Europeans arrived.

FNs lost most the land long ago when Canada was formed and were given reservations.  Now since then there have been agreements to give them more land, but that is not an unlimited process.  There are limits how far that can or should be done.  

Edited by blackbird
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This happens around the table every time there's a discussion on the subject of natives in this neck of the woods.

They want a part of decision making on their traditional lands and that's translated as "they're going to kick you out of your house". You get asked by drunk panhandlers at the Post Office and you complain about 'those Indians' while the white guy next door stumbles about pissed in his apartment collecting a pension and you never see.

Obviously we can't keep clear cutting right to the edge of the marked reserves because "Canfor wants to make money". You'll need to get used to "them" hiring you to log sustainably. And 'them' being the shareholders, not some unknown old white farts from far away that people seem to defend as demi-Gods.

And where I live they're trucking in salmon because the traditional food source has been destroyed by "our" policies, and "they" rebuilt and re-opened the hatchery because the gov't of Canada won't.

Think about how here the forced the gov't under those obligations to clean up the old mercury mine, you know damn well all that land and the lake would still be poison if they didn't. Wouldn't have happened, you know it!

WTF are you afraid of, honestly, without making up doomsday scenarios?

Edited by herbie
Mom wore brown shoes today, same reason as to raise gas prices
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6 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Yes yes...kick all the evil white people out of the town they built.

 

You disapprove of receiving the invasive species treatment?

I feel for you.

In a sustainable environment you will have family houses that just get passed on from one generation to the next.  Same family living on the same space.  The land that my grand grand father had is still in our possession and has never been sold to anyone - for s profit or not.  My ancestors end up in the same graves by the same village.

Edited by cougar
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