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37 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

How many people do you know who have the blend of legal expertise, the aptitude for governing and the personal financial resourses to put their career and family life on hold for 4 - 8 years, supporting two residences and willing to put in the time.

I know a few, I also know plenty of people who'd be willing to give it a shot and, all things being equal again, I suspect many Canadians would jump at the opportunity because they'd likely see a raise in pay.  As for wealthy people who didn't want the opportunity...the fewer wealthy people involved in politics means there'll be more average people representing us.

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All that if you are drafted. If you are not selected, you are out thousand of dollars it cost you to go through the selection process. Also, who is going to be on the selection committee. How will you stop the lawmakers from increasing their salaries.

I don't see why being drafted and selected wouldn't be much the same thing.  The period of time wouldn't need to be more than a few weeks. The selection committee could be composed of volunteers. The lawmakers laws would be subject to public referendum.  I think there would have ro be a technocratic component to government that would be composed of constitutional and legal experts to help guide the assembly in its functions and duties much like a CAO does in a municipal government. These could also help guide the selection process. 

These sorts of questions don't prevent us from drafting jurists.

 

 
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51 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I know a few, I also know plenty of people who'd be willing to give it a shot and, all things being equal again, I suspect many Canadians would jump at the opportunity because they'd likely see a raise in pay.  As for wealthy people who didn't want the opportunity...the fewer wealthy people involved in politics means there'll be more average people representing us.

I don't see why being drafted and selected wouldn't be much the same thing.  The period of time wouldn't need to be more than a few weeks. The selection committee could be composed of volunteers. The lawmakers laws would be subject to public referendum.  I think there would have ro be a technocratic component to government that would be composed of constitutional and legal experts to help guide the assembly in its functions and duties much like a CAO does in a municipal government. These could also help guide the selection process. 

These sorts of questions don't prevent us from drafting jurists.

 

 

Your basic premise is to eliminate elections. So, you would be happy with drafting a security guard or a mechanical engineer with no legal training to be voting on the estimates and the budget and to be overseeing trade negociations like NAFTA? How would you vet people who hold views that are outside social boundaries, and thus not reflective of the people in their riding.

Who is going to volunteer to select these MP's and how do you deal with volunteers who are unacceptable to many people in the constituency? I know a couple of wing nuts in the local Peoples Party who would love to volunteer to select the MP. 

Parliament votes on hundreds of bills a year. You are suggesting all those bills be subject to public referendums. We have had two federal referendums in our history. Remmember Meech? That one referendum consummed months of chaos with zero result. You want to multiply that by hundreds?

You would basically be duplicating the Senate, only without the competance current Senators bring to governing.

How would the Ministry be able to hold the confidence of the House with that kind of system?

 

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4 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

How would the Ministry be able to hold the confidence of the House with that kind of system?

Who said that there's such thing as change and it could be possible? Don't fix that cannot be fixed in principle.

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55 minutes ago, myata said:

Who said that there's such thing as change and it could be possible? Don't fix that cannot be fixed in principle.

You might be right. The suggestion of committees selcting people from working men and women sounds familiar. Then it came to me. It was implemented about a century ago. Working people formed committees and created a governing system that lasted about 70 years. It was suggested by a political theorist named Ulyanov. They called them workers committees and they created a network of committees who selected the head workers committee. The term workers committee translated into their language was "soviet." The network of Soviets was called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the head workers committee was the Supreme Soviet. Tovarich Ulyanov went by the alias Lenin.

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On 6/10/2022 at 6:49 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

Abstaining from voting is an acceptance of the outcome. Some people do not have the interest in governance. Why force someone who doesn't participate, to make a choice between people they don't know. 

It will be a choice between people they don't like!

This is why they don't vote!

Accepting the outcome or being put in a situation where the outcomes are identical are two different things.

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10 minutes ago, cougar said:

It will be a choice between people they don't like!

This is why they don't vote!

Accepting the outcome or being put in a situation where the outcomes are identical are two different things.

But everybody has the opportunity to nominate a candidate they do like. If you refuse, or don't care to participate, you are leaving the choice up to others. Those candidates you don't like were chosen by people who do like them. If you don't campaign, you have no right to complain. Would you trust someone else to buy a car for you and then would you complain because you don't like it?

Electing your candidate for MLA, MNA, MPP or MP is no different. You need to get to know the people involved and organize your friends to make your needs known. We only get the opportunity to vote every few years, but the organizing for the nomination meeting takes months, if not years.

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3 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

But everybody has the opportunity to nominate a candidate they do like. If you refuse, or don't care to participate, you are leaving the choice up to others. Those candidates you don't like were chosen by people who do like them. If you don't campaign, you have no right to complain. Would you trust someone else to buy a car for you and then complain because you don't like it?

"nominate" ????  Someone nobody knows?  And expect to win?

You are telling me a fairy tale.

You have Trudeau, the son of another Trudeau and they are all like that from some old dynasty, but generally puppets to international corporations who only care about the interests of those same corporations.

Reminds me of the head hunters I spoke with in Toronto when I first arrived:  "Let's make it clear, we are not looking for a job for you; we are filling in a position for our client!"

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13 minutes ago, cougar said:

1  Trudeau, the son of another Trudeau and they are all like that from some old dynasty, but generally puppets to international corporations who only care about the interests of those same corporations.

1. Strong NDP vibes coming from this assertion.  Good stuff ?

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24 minutes ago, cougar said:

"nominate" ????  Someone nobody knows?  And expect to win?

You are telling me a fairy tale.

You have Trudeau, the son of another Trudeau and they are all like that from some old dynasty, but generally puppets to international corporations who only care about the interests of those same corporations.

Reminds me of the head hunters I spoke with in Toronto when I first arrived:  "Let's make it clear, we are not looking for a job for you; we are filling in a position for our client!"

No. You nominate someone everybody knows, likes and trusts. You get together with your friends and pick someone from your community who fills that criteria. You all go out and sell memberships, but quietly, because others will have the same idea. You put your candidate's name forward for the nomination. Because he / she is well known in the community, he'll already have members who know him and are prone to support him. On the night of the nominating meeting, you fill the hall with all the memberser you have recruited and overwhelm to opposition. After she / he wins the nomination you get the organization to begin preparing for the time the writ drops. Your people take the candidate around the constituency to make sure every voter knows and trusts her. 

If you don't know your candidate and your MP, it is not just her fault. It is your duty as a citizen to know who you are voting for. Politics is not a spectator sport. You have to participate or it isn't any fun.

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"Democracy is the political theory that the people should get the government they want...good and hard." H. L. Menken

We get the government we deserve. The election of the current government is our fault, because we did not work hard enough for someone better.

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59 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

 You get together with your friends and pick someone from your community who fills that criteria. You all go out and sell memberships, but quietly, because others will have the same idea.

This sounds like planting small seeds in a pot in preparation of growing that 150 year old tree, if the seeds ever produce any shoots.

So, this emphasizes why people do not vote and expect no change.

They want a change now, not 150 years from now.

 

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15 minutes ago, cougar said:

This sounds like planting small seeds in a pot in preparation of growing that 150 year old tree

I don't know what you are talking about. The election is only 3 years away. When is the next AGM for your riding association? You should be getting ready to stack the executive now?

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1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I don't know what you are talking about. The election is only 3 years away. When is the next AGM for your riding association? You should be getting ready to stack the executive now?

You think this can lead to a change?  I don't.

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12 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Your basic premise is to eliminate elections. So, you would be happy with drafting a security guard or a mechanical engineer with no legal training to be voting on the estimates and the budget and to be overseeing trade negociations like NAFTA? How would you vet people who hold views that are outside social boundaries, and thus not reflective of the people in their riding.

Who is going to volunteer to select these MP's and how do you deal with volunteers who are unacceptable to many people in the constituency? I know a couple of wing nuts in the local Peoples Party who would love to volunteer to select the MP. 

Parliament votes on hundreds of bills a year. You are suggesting all those bills be subject to public referendums. We have had two federal referendums in our history. Remmember Meech? That one referendum consummed months of chaos with zero result. You want to multiply that by hundreds?

You would basically be duplicating the Senate, only without the competance current Senators bring to governing.

How would the Ministry be able to hold the confidence of the House with that kind of system?

 

My hope is to eliminate as much of the secrecy that is baked into our system of government as possible.  As I've said before I'm quite certain a few changes to the existing Lobbying Act - that eliminate in-camera lobbying of public officials about issues and topics that fall within the public's domain - would make a world of difference in the dismal levels of public trust in government and in how we're governed.  I mean I'd much rather we just try that before changing the constitution, separating, going with prop rep, doing away with the monarchy or any of the other far more drastic proposals that have been offered up as an alternative to a status quo that one hell of a lot of Canadians are profoundly and increasingly dissatisfied with.  That said I'm a little mystified that so many Canadians are so tolerant of lobbying as we know it.  

 

As I've also said and maybe it deserves its own thread, I think the deep mistrust that has settled over much of our society especially as it pertains to politics is due to years and decades of the inherent evasiveness of our politicians and governments.   It's like an accumulated toxin that our society can longer absorb without killing it.  I honestly think public mistrust of government is an even bigger issue and hurdle than climate change and we can't possibly hope to grapple with any other issue until we fix this one. 

Given that no one really seems very serious about transparency and accountability my basic premise is that of all the alternatives on tap that citizens assembly would be the best one.  I think it would depoliticize our democracy to the greatest extent possible and in so doing, make lobbying in secret more difficult if not pointless.

As for all your other questions...I get it that you're a huge fan of our system of governance and that virtually everything I've proposed is just a complete non-starter.  That's ok.  FWIW when you put the effort you do into cajoling people to embrace things they way they are I can only shake my head. 

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11 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

You might be right. The suggestion of committees selcting people from working men and women sounds familiar. Then it came to me. It was implemented about a century ago. Working people formed committees and created a governing system that lasted about 70 years. It was suggested by a political theorist named Ulyanov. They called them workers committees and they created a network of committees who selected the head workers committee. The term workers committee translated into their language was "soviet." The network of Soviets was called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the head workers committee was the Supreme Soviet. Tovarich Ulyanov went by the alias Lenin.

There it is LOL!  So you DO have commies under your bed like everyone else. Yup, change anything and we all die.

Out here on the coast we were called commies for proposing regional management boards for west coast marine fisheries, as an alternative to management from a city 1500 miles or more from the nearest ocean. Instead they threw thousands out of work, refused to even try to rebuild salmon runs and after the dust finally settled on their reformation of our fishery BC's wealthiest billionaire wound up controlling 40% of the catch.

We had a saying, it's hard to stab someone in the back when they're sitting across the table from you. It's a lot easier from 1500 miles away. 

  

 

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10 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

"Democracy is the political theory that the people should get the government they want...good and hard." H. L. Menken

We get the government we deserve. The election of the current government is our fault, because we did not work hard enough for someone better.

We shouldn't have to work that hard in this day and age to make it work better, not with the sort of technology and capacity for innovation that we have at our disposal.  It's our fault for being afraid to change anything or to only make such incremental changes that they're on par with plate tectonics.

It's 2022 and we're still driving around in a government that was literally designed for the horse and buggy era, I mean c'mon we still use the term ridings for crying out loud.

It's painfully clear the only thing that's going to change things now is that it collapses under its own weight of crap and people start from scratch.  It won't be any of us though.

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6 hours ago, eyeball said:

There it is LOL!  So you DO have commies under your bed like everyone else. Yup, change anything and we all die.

But yes! This is the best system possible, ever just because we say so and any change is anathema. Keep crawling there down below and leave us to writing laws that another group of us would regularly send back to square zero - have you heard of eternal engine yes it's possible, in bureaucracy forget what you learned in school (and yes on your dime but who else is here?). And in the meanwhile work hard on keeping our salaries up to date. Why would anyone see a problem here?

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On 6/12/2022 at 2:06 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

We get the government we deserve. The election of the current government is our fault, because we did not work hard enough for someone better

What an irony. It sounds so true but I know exactly what you mean. Stick another, new and glossy sticker on an old, rusty spitting and throttling engine and expect great positive change praising yourself for having worked "hard enough". Good luck with that - dinosaurs know.

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9 hours ago, eyeball said:

1. We shouldn't have to work that hard in this day and age to make it work better, not with the sort of technology and capacity for innovation that we have at our disposal.  It's our fault for being afraid to change anything or to only make such incremental changes that they're on par with plate tectonics.

2. It's 2022 and we're still driving around in a government that was literally designed for the horse and buggy era, I mean c'mon we still use the term ridings for crying out loud.

3. It's painfully clear the only thing that's going to change things now is that it collapses under its own weight of crap and people start from scratch.  It won't be any of us though.

1. That's a deep insight that therefore few will respond to, in my experience.
2. We need a 2-way education and focusing of the public into groups to provide input to how to make our lives better.  2-way meaning from thoughtful conservatives and socialists.
3. I used to think so, but if you look at history sometimes big issues solve themselves quickly and "the" public seems almost embarrassed to talk about it.  I'm thinking of things like the 1920s banking crisis (FDR created the federal reserve and banks stopped failing) or 2000s same-sex marriage (within less than a generation it went from the biggest threat to 'the family' to something not challenged by conservatives.

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"Solve themselves" is a great strategy and it works for the dinosaurs too (and Canadian governments, often). Like would have worked for sure if they would only stuck around long enough for the tide to go the other way. Nothing to do, no change needed a bottomless well of public dough oops, juicy leaves nearby. Only a few hundred million years... poor, poor things.

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