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Is our justice system becoming to soft.


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A recent decision by the Supreme court now has changed the precedence for maximum time served before parole for murder charges, it once was 25 years per person killed today it was changed to a maximum of 25 years, regardless of how many you have killed. The reason they gave was it was 

The Supreme Court said the law violated the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that guarantees against cruel and unusual treatment because it can deny offenders a realistic possibility of being granted parole before they die.

one would have to ask what the victim's rights are 

Families of Ontario murder victims outraged at Supreme Court ruling (msn.com)

Should the government change this ruling? 

Here is what the liberals have said.

Government disagrees with top court's decision on gunman's parole but will respect it: Lametti (msn.com)

Edited by Army Guy
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The justice system has been soft for a long time.  In the US they give you consecutive life sentences.

We are a nation of wimps and losers and entitled brats who want the government to give them more goodies and look after them like mommy and daddy did when they were kids.  A nation of Peter Pan's who have never grown up.  Helicopter parents, shouting "yay good job!" when their kid does anything remotely not stupid.

My street if filled with people who hardly ever cut their grass.  It looks like a dump.  Everyone is a victim, nobody takes responsibility for anything.

Edited by Moonlight Graham
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We are a nation in which conservatives are unable to put aside or leave behind their desire to turn our justice system into a vengeance system.

No matter what anyone else says they'll always be dismissed as soft on crime...if we brought back the electric chair conservatives would be whining that the means of death was too painless, too quick and too soft on crime.

You see the same process guaranteeing that the right-wing forever remains a direction instead of ever becoming a place.

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

We are a nation in which conservatives are unable to put aside or leave behind their desire to turn our justice system into a vengeance system.

No matter what anyone else says they'll always be dismissed as soft on crime...if we brought back the electric chair conservatives would be whining that the means of death was too painless, too quick and too soft on crime.

You see the same process guaranteeing that the right-wing forever remains a direction instead of ever becoming a place.

So I take it you agree, with the Supreme Court decision. That multi-life sentences are cruel and violets their charter rights, I say tough shit. Having 2 people kill you for sport that's really cruel, and then having them cry about the punishment is too tough... That's rich...That choice the court made has little regard for the surviving victim's families. And the court has turned sentencing into a circus... In a system that does not treat all people equal, some get multi-life sentences and some don't, depends on the day.

Did the criminal give the victim the same consideration? was it not cruel to take someone's or multiply people's lives? To risk letting them out do it all over again or make the victim's parents live all of that one more time...

Someone once said we are judged on how well we treat our prisons, But we should also be taking into account how we treat the victims and their families of these crimes.

This is not about the right or left, it is about justice, and keeping this garbage away from the public. 

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1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

So I take it you agree, with the Supreme Court decision.

Of course you take it that way. I haven't read it so I don't know if I agree with it or not. I'm not speaking to it, I'm speaking to the issue of conservatives automatically jerking their knees in unison whenever the courts make a ruling that might benefit a criminal.

Quote

This is not about the right or left, it is about justice, and keeping this garbage away from the public.

It's definitely about politics and making use of garbage to further your's and I'm quite certain the public is not the least bit endangered by this ruling.  I'm also just as certain that the feelings of victims and their families will still be taken into account when a criminal that impacted their lives gets a chance to make a bid for release.

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54 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Of course you take it that way. I haven't read it so I don't know if I agree with it or not. I'm not speaking to it, I'm speaking to the issue of conservatives automatically jerking their knees in unison whenever the courts make a ruling that might benefit a criminal.

It's definitely about politics and making use of garbage to further your's and I'm quite certain the public is not the least bit endangered by this ruling.  I'm also just as certain that the feelings of victims and their families will still be taken into account when a criminal that impacted their lives gets a chance to make a bid for release.

I'm sure if some jerk raped and murdered 3 of your daughters you'd be cool with them getting out in 25 years.

Nobody is talking about the death penalty.

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5 hours ago, eyeball said:

We are a nation in which conservatives are unable to put aside or leave behind their desire to turn our justice system into a vengeance system.

No matter what anyone else says they'll always be dismissed as soft on crime...if we brought back the electric chair conservatives would be whining that the means of death was too painless, too quick and too soft on crime.

You see the same process guaranteeing that the right-wing forever remains a direction instead of ever becoming a place.

What is a "vengeance system"?  If you murder someone you should be punished very severely.  Nobody should feel sorry for you.  Rehab them sure, get them some therapy.  But they killed someone, they deserve to be locked up for a very long time.  If you rape and kill 3 of my daughters you're scum and should never see the light of day again.  People are always responsible for their choices.

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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I'm sure if some jerk raped and murdered 3 of your daughters you'd be cool with them getting out in 25 years.

Nobody is talking about the death penalty.

I'm pretty sure I'd try to kill him and probably anyone/thing that got in my way.

What's vengeance got to do with justice or have I got backwards?

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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

What is a "vengeance system"?

Whatever it is you seem to think is lacking in our justice system.

Quote

If you murder someone you should be punished very severely.  Nobody should feel sorry for you.  Rehab them sure, get them some therapy.  But they killed someone, they deserve to be locked up for a very long time.  If you rape and kill 3 of my daughters you're scum and should never see the light of day again.  People are always responsible for their choices.

Yup.

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7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I'm sure if some jerk raped and murdered 3 of your daughters you'd be cool with them getting out in 25 years.

This is why they ask for sober and dispassionate consideration of these things and don't ask the parents of recently murdered daughters to design the system.

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14 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

  Helicopter parents, shouting "yay good job!" when their kid does anything remotely not stupid.

When you bring in these kind of easy slogans to explain an important situation like justice, you really lose my interest in listening to you further.

People have a gut level reaction to stupid trends in parenting, I get that.  But it's a pure emotional argument and not fact based, and to bring that into a serious discussion like how parole should be structure is a disqualifier IMO.

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We have few consequences anymore. Judges just give conditional sentences and when those conditions are breached, they just follow them up with more conditions. Charges take years to be laid and even more years before they the reach court. Any consequences are booted way down the road and criminals just keep carrying on business as usual. 

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11 minutes ago, Aristides said:

  Charges take years to be laid and even more years before they the reach court.  

Our systems - health, justice, education, social safety net - need to have the confidence of the people.  

In order to improve, there needs to be PUBLIC engagement and management.  Although I would put the state of things on the service providers (eg. government) we "the public" need to pick up our game a bit.

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2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

When you bring in these kind of easy slogans to explain an important situation like justice, you really lose my interest in listening to you further.

People have a gut level reaction to stupid trends in parenting, I get that.  But it's a pure emotional argument and not fact based, and to bring that into a serious discussion like how parole should be structure is a disqualifier IMO.

It's logic based.  Canadians are soft. There's a thousand policy examples to back that up.  Canadian judges are soft, this has been going on for decades.

Omar Khadr is allowed to fly on Canadian airplanes.  He's on a no-fly list in the US.  Nuff said.

This is about emotion when people feel more sorry for criminals than their victims or public safety.

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9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I think if we base punishment on hatred we'll soon find ourselves in a very unjust world.

Ok, who is talking about hatred?  If we base punishment on feeling so sorry for criminals we will also find ourselves in an unjust world.

Poor Omar Khadr.  Just a child soldier. A victim.  Not allowed to fly on Canadian airplanes would be too cruel for him.

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8 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1.  Canadians are soft. There's a thousand policy examples to back that up.   

2. Omar Khadr is allowed to fly on Canadian airplanes.  He's on a no-fly list in the US.  Nuff said.

3. This is about emotion when people feel more sorry for criminals than their victims or public safety.

1. Hack culture war joke about participation trophies which has been often used in a non Canadian context.

2. Pretty specific example from an extreme edge case that can't really be applied to the general Canadian legal system.

3. Do they?

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Hack culture war joke about participation trophies which has been often used in a non Canadian context.

2. Pretty specific example from an extreme edge case that can't really be applied to the general Canadian legal system.

3. Do they?

1. Whoa whoa I never said anything about participation trophies. Let's not get crazy here.

2. But things like that happen all the time.  Russell Peterson got to keep his full military pension.  Karla Homolka is a free woman and volunteering at a local school helping kids and is not a registered sex offender.  She went to prison for raping and murdering 2 school girls and killing her own sister.  Khadr is seen on video building and planting IED explosives trying to kill NATO forces and killed a US soldier and is flying around the country on Air Canada flights. Returning ISIS fighters are roaming free around Canada.

https://www.narcity.com/disgraced-serial-killer-karla-homolka-is-roaming-free-in-canada-and-people-are-furious

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52 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1. Whoa whoa I never said anything about participation trophies. Let's not get crazy here.

2. But things like that happen all the time.  Russell Peterson got to keep his full military pension.  Karla Homolka is a free woman and volunteering at a local school helping kids and is not a registered sex offender.  She went to prison for raping and murdering 2 school girls and killing her own sister.  Khadr is seen on video building and planting IED explosives trying to kill NATO forces and killed a US soldier and is flying around the country on Air Canada flights. Returning ISIS fighters are roaming free around Canada.

https://www.narcity.com/disgraced-serial-killer-karla-homolka-is-roaming-free-in-canada-and-people-are-furious

1. Sorry I feel this is a facile and overstated response in this same vein:""Helicopter parents, shouting "yay good job!" when their kid does anything remotely not stupid.""

2. All of it is case by case and not an assessment of what is really wrong.

We probably have access to stats like recitivism rates, time between arrest and sentencing and costs per conviction.  If we vote based on Karla Homolka got released 30 years ago, then we deserve the system we get.

 

I'm especially concerned about the public's inattention generally - not just in justice but also education and healthcare, where the public does not pay attention to the stats one little bit and they never come up even at election time. That gives elected officials and Senior bureaucracy cover to let things slip because they know that the public isn't watching the numbers.

 

 

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