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Is Russiophobia one of Trudeau's "Acceptable Views"?


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45 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Russian Canadians.  My biggest client is a 47 year old woman born and raised in Russia (she fled).  I think she's the bee's knees and most people who meet her agree.  She's not feeling any hate anywhere.  

As for "contempt" for actual Russians, it's not even that.  It's contempt for and rejection of Putin's Russia.  People around the world are cheering for and worried about Marina Ovsyannikova, who held up a sign protesting the war in Ukraine during a live broadcast of Russia's state-run news.  She's now disappeared and nobody knows where she is.  

If shunning Russians for invading Ukraine is racist or discriminatory, what do you call invading a sovereign nation and killing its people? Outside of actively engaging in the conflict, the only way the west can help Ukraine is isolating its aggressors as they have been. 

 

I'm happy for her but some Canadians are assholes and are not showing the same compassion...

It is just that, a good number of Russians don't want this war, and a good majority of them probably don't know what is happening, except what is being broadcast on state media...As for Marina, god knows what has happened to her, one could only guess , but would it surprise anyone if she was no longer with us...would it be the first time this happened..

Your putting words in my mouth again, i did not say that nor was it my intent to say that, i said our contempt should be for those responsible, not joe blow Russian...

I call it war, and I'm  good with all the action NATO has been doing...but Russian Canadians are not aggressors as the Canadians Chinese were not responsible for the actions of china... and like i said before some Canadians are assholes...did you see the reception alex Ovenkin got from Calgary fans...he denounced Russia's acts many times, shit the NHL was considering banning all Russian players form playing the game...along with the special Olympics banning Russian athletes because they had a role in this whole thing... some times we get carried away...

And while sanctions are good at the moment , but once they have destroyed their economy, and Russians go hungry in the streets, it will force Putin to escalate even farther...all these actions must be measured carfully... 

 

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1 hour ago, Miloburke said:

Hi Faramir,

 

>  The British were wrong to think they could put Germany down a notch. 

I am not sure what yo mean. Could you expand on it.

It is a rejection of the current narrative taught in the West that Germany and Austria were the villains in WWI.  The British didn't like that Germany was set to rival their own navy, so were itching for war against the Kaiser.  They thought it would be quick.

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59 minutes ago, Miloburke said:

In what way? What could Ukraine do to Russia as a member of the EU or NATO that they cannot do now?

Why are you even here if you can't think for yourself dude? 

Do you think this is a test of your ability to regurgitate propaganda and block out information? 

Why don't you try to think of some reasons why Russia doesn't want NATO there? What are they? Expand your brain. 

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3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I'm happy for her but some Canadians are assholes and are not showing the same compassion...

Maybe some are, but the cries of "discrimination" are overblown and they're coming from the same Putin boosters repeating the Kremlin propaganda they're pulling off of TG.  

3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

It is just that, a good number of Russians don't want this war, and a good majority of them probably don't know what is happening, except what is being broadcast on state media...As for Marina, god knows what has happened to her, one could only guess , but would it surprise anyone if she was no longer with us...would it be the first time this happened..

No doubt. 

3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Your putting words in my mouth again, i did not say that nor was it my intent to say that, i said our contempt should be for those responsible, not joe blow Russian...

Joe blow Russian is the only one who can do anything about it.  The oligarchs and Putin's other cronies are certainly not going to dismantle the corruption within the system they've used to get fabulously wealthy.  

3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

did you see the reception alex Ovenkin got from Calgary fans...he denounced Russia's acts many times

Alex Ovechkin has long been one of the NHL's premiere Putin asslickers and his criticism for the war has been muted, at best. and not worth the breath he used to speak it.  Look at someone like Artemi Panarin if you want to see real criticism from a Russian - something that took some actual courage.  Ovechkin deserves all the boos he gets.  

3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

And while sanctions are good at the moment , but once they have destroyed their economy, and Russians go hungry in the streets, it will force Putin to escalate even farther...all these actions must be measured carfully... 

If Russians go hungry, that's on Putin and the people who let him get away with his crimes.  

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2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Why are you even here if you can't think for yourself dude? 

Do you think this is a test of your ability to regurgitate propaganda and block out information? 

Why don't you try to think of some reasons why Russia doesn't want NATO there? What are they? Expand your brain. 

You didn't answer the question. I know why Russia doesn't want NATO there, it limits it's sphere of influence. So let me ask again, What could Ukraine do to Russia as a member of the EU or NATO that they cannot do now? If you don't know just say so.

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1 hour ago, Miloburke said:

You didn't answer the question. I know why Russia doesn't want NATO there, it limits it's sphere of influence. So let me ask again, What could Ukraine do to Russia as a member of the EU or NATO that they cannot do now? If you don't know just say so.

As part of NATO it would have art 5 protection, NATO would also put in NATO military bases ,and everything that goes with it, fighter aircraft, modern air defense system for both ballistic missiles, and anti air, it would give NATO a port on the black sea to counter Russia naval vessels in the area. Having that much NATO forces in the country would be a huge boost to Ukraine's income, meaning able to buy much better equipment and defenses, building all that infra structure would cost hundreds of bils...

Russia wants Ukraine to be a buffer between NATO and Russian forces.. it would the Russian would have less time to react for any type of attack....

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10 hours ago, myata said:

Your statements are weird, bizarre completely and hopelessly out of the sane world. Where are Russian troops and where are Russia's borders? It takes only a few seconds to check. If you got robbers in your place trying to hold your children hostage at knife/gunpoint would you be blaming police for trying to stop and arrest them? I'm not surprised anymore by what one can hear from our coinhabitors on this planet. Probably why we are failing to find any traces of advanced intelligent life out there.

No they are straight out of the Geneva convention... If a person is declared a civilian , and he picks up a weapons' he becomes an unlawful combatant ....which is not only illegal to be and can be tried as a war crime, ... , but they become a legitimate military target where all or any force or weapon system can be used upon... This law exists to protect innocent civilians not taking part in the conflict...Ukraine has tried to solve this by making most of them military forces , which gives it's soldiers access to the conventions...that being said they must be in some sort of uniform or wear some type of markings to id them as soldiers or combatants...but if you just a civilian throwing cocktails or have a weapon your free game, open to arrest or targeted...

Something to also note Russia with drew from following the Geneva conventions so most of them don't really apply. Unless you have proof of a crime that will stand up in a court of law...most war criminals do not face justice for this reason...

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1 hour ago, Miloburke said:

You didn't answer the question. I know why Russia doesn't want NATO there, it limits it's sphere of influence. 

Wrong.

I was in the military for 3 years, took NBCD training twice in that time. I've never had any NBCD training before or since.

If I stayed in the military for my whole career I would get less nuclear, biological and chemical defence training than German school children received (by grade 8 or 8 yrs old, I don't remember). 

That's no life at all.

If Putin doesn't push back right now the Russian people have a knife at their throat for the foreseeable future.

Zelensky was warned.

Zelensky chose to keep pushing towards NATO.

Zelensky started a war. 

That's how I see it.

 

You see this as "Putin is a dictator so the Russian people should suffer every dire consequence imaginable."

Guess what buttercup? 99% of the governing bodies of every country in the history of the world were basic dictatorships. It's "normal", just like slavery was until Britain and the US became the world's dominant powers.

Why should the Russian people suffer from our threats at the same time as they suffer their dictatorship?

FWIW our democracy was much better than a basic dictatorship back when we had freedom of speech and freedom to gather and the government couldn't just randomly call people "racists and misogynists", freeze their bank accounts and send them to jail on minor charges without bail. 

That's neither here nor there though.

The fact is that you only see the world from your myopic POV and you don't see the suffering of other people as meaningful. 

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4 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

No they are straight out of the Geneva convention... If a person is declared a civilian , and he picks up a weapons' he becomes an unlawful combatant....which is not only illegal to be and can be tried as a war crime

That's not right, at all.  The term "unlawful combatant" isn't used anywhere in either the Hague or Geneva Conventions.  The third Geneva Convention specifically states the following sorts of people are considered protected persons and would qualify as prisoners of war:

  • 4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

in addition to irregular forces, militias and other arms-bearing resistances or insurgencies

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8 hours ago, Army Guy said:

What has changed from then to now, Did the Chinese Canadians or i should say all Asian Canadians people just not go through that phase, becasue of what China was doing in the world, getting beaten up , harassed,  or is it ok to be racist when ever it we want , they are after all the enemy right...Lets not pretend that things have changed and we are now all of sudden racist free... we are far from it, and will never be free from racism.... Now Putin and his crew can fuck right off, we should contain our contempt to them and not every Russian , there is after all over 600 k Russian Canadians  living here in Canada....

I have said it before and I say it again.  I have absolute contempt for Putin, his entire government. his entire army and those Russians who support him directly or indirectly. They are all murderous bastards committing genocides against a defenseless nation including women and children.

Edited by CITIZEN_2015
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4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

No they are straight out of the Geneva convention... If a person is declared a civilian , and he picks up a weapons' he becomes an unlawful combatant

Can you get a quote on that? Territorial defense is a standard practice in many countries and it has nothing to do with what you said even if it was true.

Besides, Russia bombed and shelled residential buildings; municipal offices and services; hospitals, including children's; deliberately disrupted critical services to the population such as water, electricity and heating; razed entire towns and parts of cities (Volnovakha; Mariupol; Kharkov); is interfering with nuclear power facilities. Russia routinely places its weapon systems in the middle of civilian areas holding civilian population hostage. Prevents evacuation of civilians and attacks them as they are trying to flee killing them.

This is way past Geneva. This is state terrorism, deliberate attacking and killing of civilians, destruction of places, elimination of a free independent nation, edging on a genocide. Crimes in the same league and not a grain smaller or different from Al Qaeda's. And it follows that Russian invaders in Ukraine should be treated as such, murderous criminal terrorists as their own acts brand them and nothing less.

If it's not enough for Geneva convention in some twisted view, then certainly for several war crime and crime against humanity trials in The Hague.

 

Edited by myata
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3 hours ago, myata said:

Can you get a quote on that? Territorial defense is a standard practice in many countries and it has nothing to do with what you said even if it was true.

Besides, Russia bombed and shelled residential buildings; municipal offices and services; hospitals, including children's; deliberately disrupted critical services to the population such as water, electricity and heating; razed entire towns and parts of cities (Volnovakha; Mariupol; Kharkov); is interfering with nuclear power facilities. Russia routinely places its weapon systems in the middle of civilian areas holding civilian population hostage. Prevents evacuation of civilians and attacks them as they are trying to flee killing them.

This is way past Geneva. This is state terrorism, deliberate attacking and killing of civilians, destruction of places, elimination of a free independent nation, edging on a genocide. Crimes in the same league and not a grain smaller or different from Al Qaeda's. And it follows that Russian invaders in Ukraine should be treated as such, murderous criminal terrorists as their own acts brand them and nothing less.

If it's not enough for Geneva convention in some twisted view, then certainly for several war crime and crime against humanity trials in The Hague.

 

You’re right that based on all official accounts, Russia has violated international law, invaded a sovereign country, and has harmed civilians, including killing.  It must be stopped, Russia must leave Ukraine immediately, and the territorial integrity of the country and its regions must be established by the people who live there.  It must include assurances for the safety and well-being of all minority groups.   It must include assurances for the safety and integrity of neighbouring countries, including Poland, Russia, Belarus, etc.

Basically there must be peace assurances across Europe. NATO must be an active force for protecting the peace. EU countries and Russia itself must commit to protecting the peace.  Regions must always have the right to self-determination. No region should ever be used as a staging ground for unprovoked attacks against other regions or nations.  The Ukrainian people must be protected.  The UN should play a role here or I’m not sure why we have it.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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13 hours ago, Faramir said:

It is a rejection of the current narrative taught in the West that Germany and Austria were the villains in WWI.  The British didn't like that Germany was set to rival their own navy, so were itching for war against the Kaiser.  They thought it would be quick.

How exactly did Britain start the WWI? This i news to me.

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9 hours ago, Army Guy said:

As part of NATO it would have art 5 protection, NATO would also put in NATO military bases ,and everything that goes with it, fighter aircraft, modern air defense system for both ballistic missiles, and anti air, it would give NATO a port on the black sea to counter Russia naval vessels in the area. Having that much NATO forces in the country would be a huge boost to Ukraine's income, meaning able to buy much better equipment and defenses, building all that infra structure would cost hundreds of bils...

Russia wants Ukraine to be a buffer between NATO and Russian forces.. it would the Russian would have less time to react for any type of attack....

Fair enough.

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9 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Wrong.

I was in the military for 3 years, took NBCD training twice in that time. I've never had any NBCD training before or since.

If I stayed in the military for my whole career I would get less nuclear, biological and chemical defence training than German school children received (by grade 8 or 8 yrs old, I don't remember). 

That's no life at all.

If Putin doesn't push back right now the Russian people have a knife at their throat for the foreseeable future.

Zelensky was warned.

Zelensky chose to keep pushing towards NATO.

Zelensky started a war. 

That's how I see it.

 

You see this as "Putin is a dictator so the Russian people should suffer every dire consequence imaginable."

Guess what buttercup? 99% of the governing bodies of every country in the history of the world were basic dictatorships. It's "normal", just like slavery was until Britain and the US became the world's dominant powers.

Why should the Russian people suffer from our threats at the same time as they suffer their dictatorship?

FWIW our democracy was much better than a basic dictatorship back when we had freedom of speech and freedom to gather and the government couldn't just randomly call people "racists and misogynists", freeze their bank accounts and send them to jail on minor charges without bail. 

That's neither here nor there though.

The fact is that you only see the world from your myopic POV and you don't see the suffering of other people as meaningful. 

> I was in the military for 3 years, took NBCD training twice in that time. I've never had any NBCD training before or since.

Ditto, I remember the training, but that was back in the 60s when the threat was high.

> If Putin doesn't push back right now the Russian people have a knife at their throat for the foreseeable future.

What knife? Do you seriously believe that Ukraine in particular and NATO in general is an aggressive threat to Russia? News flash, the people of Canada, the U.S, and the U.E. wouldn't stand for such a move. It would be political suicide for the party in power.

> Zelensky started a war.

???Who fired the first shot? For Zelensky to start a war with Russia is like me going next door to my neighbour, a retired heavyweight boxer, and throwing a punch.

> Why should the Russian people suffer from our threats at the same time as they suffer their dictatorship?

Why should the Ukrainian people suffer from Russian shelling of residential neighbourhoods?

> The fact is that you only see the world from your myopic POV and you don't see the suffering of other people as meaningful. 

Wow, I guess the suffering of Ukrainians is neither here nor there. Anyway, how were the Russian people suffering before the invasion of Ukraine and how is the west responsible if they were? By the way, I see the situation just fine. I suggest you take off your ideological glasses and see what is really happening.

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15 hours ago, Army Guy said:

.did you see the reception alex Ovenkin got from Calgary fans...he denounced Russia's acts many times, 

 

No, he didn't.  He still supports Putin. Still has a picture of him and Putin on his Instagram. Won't take it down because he worries his family in Russia would then be targeted.... For this to make sense, you have to assume accusing Putin of potentially going after his family is not as insulting as removing an Instagram photo.

While I agree lots of Russians are innocent victims in this, Ovechkin isn't one of them. He's always been a Putin loyalist and he still is.

Edited by BubberMiley
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7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

NATO must be an active force for protecting the peace. EU countries and

I agree with most of what you are saying except Russia "committing" to anything. There's no need for such commitments and they would be worth exactly zero, nothing after having broken every single commitment it subscribed to. It will be a pariah, a despised and avoided place in the vicinity of Europe, certainly not a part of it by any notion of civilization, culture or moral and deservedly so, by heinous act of her own making.

Edited by myata
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20 minutes ago, myata said:

It will be a pariah, a despised and avoided place in the vicinity of Europe, certainly not a part of it by any notion of civilization, culture or moral and deservedly so, by heinous act of her own making.

The regime will be, and the country with it as long as it's in charge.  There are ways to rebuild those bridges, just none of them involve Vladimir Putin or his cronies. 

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5 hours ago, Miloburke said:

> If Putin doesn't push back right now the Russian people have a knife at their throat for the foreseeable future.

What knife? Do you seriously believe that Ukraine in particular and NATO in general is an aggressive threat to Russia? News flash, the people of Canada, the U.S, and the U.E. wouldn't stand for such a move. It would be political suicide for the party in power.

Absolutely NATO is an aggressive threat. Anyone who edges up beside of you with weapons is a threat. 

Have you not noticed how many countries the US has bombed lately? Places where they've interfered in elections? Appointed prosecutors? Toppled regimes? 

The people of Canada will ignore hate mongering from their PM, and will look away while police beat up peaceful protesters and freeze the bank accounts of Canadians who did nothing. We're not gonna stop Hillary Clinton from doing anything.

CTV and CNN will say Hillary needed to do it, she never lied about anything, she just acted on the intel that she had.

This may not be your first rodeo but you still can't tell a horse from a bull. 

Quote

> Zelensky started a war.

???Who fired the first shot? For Zelensky to start a war with Russia is like me going next door to my neighbour, a retired heavyweight boxer, and throwing a punch.

Zelensky.

Threatening to bring in NATO was the first shot. Zelensky even admitted yesterday that he has always known that joining NATO was a bridge too far but he kept yakking, even with Russian troops surrounding his country. 

All it takes is a signature on the dotted line and Russia would be unable to have that buffer zone that they need. 

Quote

> Why should the Russian people suffer from our threats at the same time as they suffer their dictatorship?

Why should the Ukrainian people suffer from Russian shelling of residential neighbourhoods?

Because they chose a leader who was on the wrong path. That's what happens. German people suffered when they elected Hitler. Canadians are suffering from electing Trudeau. Americans are suffering from electing Biden (now Saudi - China). We're already paying, but we're gonna be paying for a long time to come. 

Quote

> The fact is that you only see the world from your myopic POV and you don't see the suffering of other people as meaningful. 

Wow, I guess the suffering of Ukrainians is neither here nor there. Anyway, how were the Russian people suffering before the invasion of Ukraine and how is the west responsible if they were? By the way, I see the situation just fine. I suggest you take off your ideological glasses and see what is really happening.

The suffering of Ukrainians was caused by something that you don't understand. 

Regardless of how badly the Russians need a regime change, having NATO at their border was not an option for the people of Russia. 

Russia spans 11 time zones and shares a border with 11 or 12 countries, their geopolitical situation is nothing like ours. 

America is insulated from pressure by the earth's two largest oceans. So is Canada. 

Russia is between China and NATO. 

Yes, you have a myopic world view. 

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Yeah I definitely find myself in the middle of this debate as far as where I stand.  Trying to admit the Ukraine into NATO was and continues to be stupid.  And Zelensky has terrible bed fellows - Soros, Zuckerberg, Crack head Biden, dementia Biden, the Clintons, LINDA Graham, Johnny the chicken hawk Bolton,  ect.....  I hate what the Russians are doing but I hate globalists at least as much.  I just wish these johnny come lately who are NOW anti-Putin were so 20 years ago when he was thieving and corrupting his country.  But they didn't give a crap that Putin was awarding his Oligarchs and screwing over countries he made previous promises to.  I lost a bit of money on Paan American Silver because Putin pulled the rug from under them.  THAT is personal.  It cost me money.  

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