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Vaccine Mandates and Emergencies Act


Emergencies Act  

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2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Well when you do figure out wtf you are arguing about please let me know. I answered a question you asked.

No you didn't. My question was pretty straightforward. And the answer is yes it's possible something still happened and didn't make it into the news. 

Now as for your post, corporate media's primary interest is selling ad space. The position they take on certain issues addresses a specific target audience. Basic marketing 101.

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Again, eyeball and Moonbox are the neighbours who smugly turn people into authorities if a law is unethical merely because it’s “the law.”   We’ve seen these moves before in the darkest days of civilization.  Those who lived in Nazi occupied Europe or Stalinist Russia could tell you all about it.  The Romanians are very tuned into what has been happening in Canada.  Sadly, I don’t think eyeball and Moonbox are exceptional.  Their approaches are typical of human nature.  

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4 minutes ago, West said:

No you didn't. My question was pretty straightforward. And the answer is yes it's possible something still happened and didn't make it into the news. 

Now as for your post, corporate media's primary interest is selling ad space. The position they take on certain issues addresses a specific target audience. Basic marketing 101.

You realize this yet you persist in believing the withholding or distortion of news is deliberate.  I do not believe for one minute you're simply being hyperbolic.

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2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Again, eyeball and Moonbox are the neighbours who smugly turn people into authorities if a law is unethical merely because it’s “the law.”   We’ve seen these moves before in the darkest days of civilization.  Those who lived in Nazi occupied Europe or Stalinist Russia could tell you all about it.  The Romanians are very tuned into what has been happening in Canada.  Sadly, I don’t think eyeball and Moonbox are exceptional.  Their approaches are typical of human nature.  

So it's not just hyperbole. You honestly believe I want you to be subjugated the way people in dictatorships are.

That's intellectually challenged. 

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4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The biggest concern I and many others have with your views is this idea that government should be able to dictate your health program to the extent of removing constitutional rights and one’s ability to earn a livelihood.  

That's too bad, because your Rights under the Constitution are not limitless and guaranteed "only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

In this case you right to earn a livelihood was balanced against the general population's health and safety and the limits were deemed reasonable.  You were even given a choice on the matter, and if you chose not to be vaccinated then too bad, so sad, you were going to have to tough it out and live with the consequences.  

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t care that 90% of the population is vaccinated.  I’m vaccinated too.  That doesn’t give government the right to oppress people who don’t accept a government health regimen.

It wasn't oppression or discrimination.  It was a science-backed health mandate that applied to everyone across the country and was implemented to save lives and keep people safe.  The unvaccinated folk were an unnecessary health risk that prolonged the pandemic and endangered people and your pseudo-science and cherry-picked dissenters fell light-years short of demonstrating otherwise.  

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

This is about protecting individual rights. The Canadian government revealed itself as against those rights.  I already know your counter-arguments and I’ll always disagree with them.  If we don’t protect rights for all, don’t complain when your rights are trounced on when you take issue with a government mandate.  

I was standing up for the rights of people to remain safe from ignorant, obstinate and selfish fools who chose to make a health crisis way worse than it ever needed to be on the basis of conspiracy theories.    

When our government demonstrated an actual threat to our rights (the Emergency Act), I did take issue.  

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24 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You realize this yet you persist in believing the withholding or distortion of news is deliberate.  I do not believe for one minute you're simply being hyperbolic.

You must be confusing me for someone else. 

Where have I said the news channels all secretly gather together? 

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28 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Again, eyeball and Moonbox are the neighbours who smugly turn people into authorities if a law is unethical merely because it’s “the law.”   We’ve seen these moves before in the darkest days of civilization.  Those who lived in Nazi occupied Europe or Stalinist Russia could tell you all about it.  The Romanians are very tuned into what has been happening in Canada.  Sadly, I don’t think eyeball and Moonbox are exceptional.  Their approaches are typical of human nature.  

Yes I agree. They would be the first to call the snitch line if granny had her grandkids over for Sunday brunch. 

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17 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

That's too bad, because your Rights under the Constitution are not limitless and guaranteed "only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

In this case you right to earn a livelihood was balanced against the general population's health and safety and the limits were deemed reasonable.  You were even given a choice on the matter, and if you chose not to be vaccinated then too bad, so sad, you were going to have to tough it out and live with the consequences.  

It wasn't oppression or discrimination.  It was a science-backed health mandate that applied to everyone across the country and was implemented to save lives and keep people safe.  The unvaccinated folk were an unnecessary health risk that prolonged the pandemic and endangered people and your pseudo-science and cherry-picked dissenters fell light-years short of demonstrating otherwise.  

I was standing up for the rights of people to remain safe from ignorant, obstinate and selfish fools who chose to make a health crisis way worse than it ever needed to be on the basis of conspiracy theories.    

When our government demonstrated an actual threat to our rights (the Emergency Act), I did take issue.  

No, you don’t see how your extreme notion of health purity is the enemy of the good.  It’s a totalitarian controlling mindset.  Instead of celebrating the fact that Canada has one of the highest vaccination rates, you need 100% at all costs.  You dismiss the interests of those who don’t want to follow the mandate and say, “They have a choice”, no matter how coerced or denigrated these people are.  I’ve said it all along, your attitude scares me more than Covid or any number of threats.   Anyway, been there done that with these conversations.  Enjoy your more controlling government.  

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1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

No, you don’t see how your extreme notion of health purity is the enemy of the good.  It’s a totalitarian controlling mindset.  Instead of celebrating the fact that Canada has one of the highest vaccination rates, you need 100% at all costs.  

At all costs?  Totalitarian controlling mindset?  When you stop screaming into your pillow and can actually speak without hyperbole, more people will take your seriously and listen to what you have to say.  

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

You dismiss the interests of those who don’t want to follow the mandate and say, “They have a choice”, no matter how coerced or denigrated these people are.  I’ve said it all along, your attitude scares me more than Covid or any number of threats. 

The foolishness and ignorance behind your conspiracy theories and rabid hyperbole are what scare most people.  You can barely go one post without raving about totalitarians or nazis, so it shouldn't be a surprise nobody's really paying attention to you.  Like with the doomsayer wailing on the street, we walk past as quickly as possible and tune you out.  

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1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Sure, but the media isn't wrong because it's the mainstream media, and that's the central delusion of your viewpoint - that journalists from all different political stripes, backgrounds and countries from around the world (and often conflict with each other) are all in lockstep telling the same lies. 

The fact of the matter is that 90% of Canadians got vaccinated and were following the mandates and the science believing that this would hasten the "return to normal".  A small subset of the population, however, refused all of the above and then proceeded to tell everyone they were better judges of the science, that they cared more about freedom and that the government they'd just re-elected was tyrannical.  No media spin was required to turn popular opinion against them.  

Tamara Lich is not a reasonable person, and whatever legitimate concerns the protestors had were drowned out in their absurd hyperbole and the obstinate nuisances they made of themselves.  Blocking $300M worth of daily trade at the Ambassador Bridge was so ridiculously tone-deaf for a movement trying to argue about the damage being caused to the economy that it was clear from the outset that they weren't reasonable.  

I don't have a cable, so whatever.  Youtube and podcasts can have interesting/valid content, but then it's also full of mountains of bullshit.  If that's the only place you're getting your news from, then you're filtering your sources to create a feedback loop that's going to repeat your views back to you.  

You are really saying the unvaccinated made things worse?  That's a novel argument. After the fact and really not supported by any data.  

Finally the insanity is coming to an end.  We beat our freedoms into a bloody pulp for three years, yet there are still those out there, like that Gnome Fauci, who want us to keep wallowing in fear.  

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22 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

That's too bad, because your Rights under the Constitution are not limitless and guaranteed "only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

In this case you right to earn a livelihood was balanced against the general population's health and safety and the limits were deemed reasonable. 

This is the part that is up for debate.   Can the suspending of human rights be demonstrably justified in the light of the general population's health and safety?

In light of the following facts, many do not feel the suspension of rights and closing of businesses is justified:

  • The vaccine does not prevent infection or transmission
  • The virus has a 99.5% survival rate
  • The virus has an IFR that is a fraction of a percentage higher than the seasonal flu
  • While understandable that we wanted to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed, the fact of the matter is that they were overwhelmed prior to the virus
  • Natural immunity for those previously infected with covid or who already have antibodies, has been ignored
  • Proven early treatments were deliberately suppressed, resulting in unnecessary loss of life
  • The "collateral damage" being done to society, is ignored (increase in suicide and depression, domestic violence, closure of small businesses, vaccine injuries and deaths, suspension of human rights, etc.)

While sad that the virus is mainly deadly to the elderly and the already health-compromised, this is just a fact of life - severe colds, flus and pneumonias generally have always been more deadly to those groups.  They have the tools to help them protect themselves; they are free to social distance, mask, stay home, get vaccinated, do whatever they likely have already been doing to protect themselves long before covid came along.  There have always been people with compromised immune systems who have had to do things to protect themselves and also to accept that they face more risk because of their health.

If I were in my 80's, I would never expect or demand that the rest of society drastically change or enroll in a medical experiment that has death and permanent disability as a side effect, especially for children.  I would do what I could to protect myself and let others do the same.  I find that kind of thinking quite selfish.

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31 minutes ago, Goddess said:

This is the part that is up for debate.   Can the suspending of human rights be demonstrably justified in the light of the general population's health and safety?

It's not a suspension of human rights.  It's a reasonable limit to the guarantee of specific rights in the face of a health crisis.  

There comes a point when the costs outweigh the gains for the mandates and restrictions, and I think those were reasonable arguments to make even before the end of 2021, but not on the basis of pseudo-science, questionable conclusions drawn from good data, or straight-up falsehoods, one of the most obvious being this gem:

49 minutes ago, Goddess said:

The virus has an IFR that is a fraction of a percentage higher than the seasonal flu

Which isn't true by any measure - with even the mild Omicron variant being ~40% more likely than the seasonal flu to cause death - this after almost two years of COVID circulating through the population already.  This also ignores that the IFR is only one piece of the puzzle when comparing COVID to influenza, with COVID being demonstrably more virulent/infectious.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

IFR is only one piece of the puzzle when comparing COVID to influenza, with COVID being demonstrably more virulent/infectious.  

Wrong.  Infection Fatality Rate is probably THE most important piece.

As far as death rates go, there really hasn't been much of an uptick on rates either by province, state, country or world.  Although they seem to be rising now - AFTER the vaccine rollout, with insurance companies reporting up to 40% increases in all cause mortality amongst the working class, who previously had low mortality rates.

The world INCREASED in population for the last 2 years, in pretty much the same amount it ALWAYS increases.

Again - not the "death parade" you and the other fear-mongerers have made it out to be and does not justify the draconian, suppressive measures used by governments to get money, power and control.

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57 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Wrong.  Infection Fatality Rate is probably THE most important piece.

Nope. That's an appallingly ignorant claim, proving you either don't know what IFR even means or you're utterly clueless about how math, epidemiology or straight common-sense work.    

If a disease had an IFR of 100% but could only be transmitted by licking rats or infected people's inner-ear, nobody would be too concerned.  That's why viruses like Ebola, Marburg or Hantavirus don't cause nearly the same health scares as something like COVID, despite having IFR's 25-90x higher.  They're not nearly as infectious, thus easier to control, thus far less dangerous.  

57 minutes ago, Goddess said:

with insurance companies reporting up to 40% increases in all cause mortality amongst the working class, who previously had low mortality rates.

That's utter, completely made-up bullshit, and I say that as someone who actually speaks to life insurance actuaries and follows this data on a semi-regular basis.  

 

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2 hours ago, Faramir said:

You are really saying the unvaccinated made things worse?  That's a novel argument. After the fact and really not supported by any data.  

Except there's tons of data, including but not limited to the disproportionately way higher rate of admission to the ICU (and death) of unvaccinated people.  Your ignorance sadly doesn't make that less true.  

FarBlankAmericancrow-size_restricted.gif

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8 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

If a disease had an IFR of 100% but could only be transmitted by licking rats or infected people's inner-ear, nobody would be too concerned.  That's why viruses like Ebola, Marburg or Hantavirus don't cause nearly the same health scares as something like COVID, despite having IFR's 25-90x higher.  They're not nearly as infectious, thus easier to control, thus far less dangerous. 

Gobbledygook.

I think you subscribe to the notion that if you don't have facts, you baffle with BS.

The IFR of covid is marginally higher than the seasonal flu and affects the same demographics.  That is fact.

11 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

That's utter, completely made-up bullshit, and I say that as someone who actually speaks to life insurance actuaries and follows this data on a semi-regular basis. 

Speak to them some more.  More and more life insurance companies are reporting astronomical increases in all cause mortality amongst working age people.  Even the recently released Pfizer data is showing the same.

You are welcome to live in denial and fear-mongering, if you want.  But some of us prefer reality.

 

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4 hours ago, Goddess said:

Gobbledygook.

I think you subscribe to the notion that if you don't have facts, you baffle with BS.

Doesn't take much to baffle someone who half-wittedly uses terminology she doesn't understand and talks about subjects she's completely clueless on. 

4 hours ago, Goddess said:

The IFR of covid is marginally higher than the seasonal flu and affects the same demographics.  That is fact.

No it's not.  It's 40% higher than the seasonal flu and far more infectious....but infectiousness doesn't matter according to Goddess.

 

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4 hours ago, Goddess said:

Speak to them some more.  More and more life insurance companies are reporting astronomical increases in all cause mortality amongst working age people.  Even the recently released Pfizer data is showing the same.

You are welcome to live in denial and fear-mongering, if you want.  But some of us prefer reality.

 

I'M the one fear-mongering, while you're the one pandering fake statistics about general mortality skyrocketing.  It's too stupid to even make this stuff up.  

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On 3/7/2022 at 6:58 AM, Queenmandy85 said:

Would you want to sit next to an unvaccinated person?

Over 2,500 dbl-and triple-poked Canadians have died since mid-Dec. It's almost exactly twice as many as unpoked. Would you want to sit next to a pfizerated person? 

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30 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Doesn't take much to baffle someone who half-wittedly uses terminology she doesn't understand and talks about subjects she's completely clueless on. 

No it's not.  It's 40% higher than the seasonal flu and far more infectious....but infectiousness doesn't matter according to Goddess.

Your whole post was just worthless, snotty accusations without any cites at all. 

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On 2/22/2022 at 11:12 PM, Zeitgeist said:

Border blockades are clear and the trucks are removed from downtown Ottawa.  Do you think the Emergencies Act should continue to be in place?  Do you support continued vaccine mandates?

No, no and No!

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7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

1... That's too bad, because your Rights under the Constitution are not limitless and guaranteed "only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

2.... In this case you right to earn a livelihood was balanced against the general population's health and safety and the limits were deemed reasonable.  You were even given a choice on the matter, and if you chose not to be vaccinated then too bad, so sad, you were going to have to tough it out and live with the consequences.  

3... It wasn't oppression or discrimination.  It was a science-backed health mandate that applied to everyone across the country and was implemented to save lives and keep people safe.  The unvaccinated folk were an unnecessary health risk that prolonged the pandemic and endangered people and your pseudo-science and cherry-picked dissenters fell light-years short of demonstrating otherwise.  

4.... I was standing up for the rights of people to remain safe from ignorant, obstinate and selfish fools who chose to make a health crisis way worse than it ever needed to be on the basis of conspiracy theories.    

 

1.... I agree 100 % on this,  Canadians seem to think all those rights and privilege's granted in our charter are set in stone, when in reality they are very fragile and can be taken away for lots of reasons...it's better explained in the new emergencies act and it's various levels, along with the charter itself...

2.  The question is or should be what has changed since this decision was made? A lot of provinces are opening things up taking these mandates away completely, and yet death rates and the spread of covid is not showing any signs of dissipating and are on a steady increase, atleast according to according to the government web site...

 COVID-19: Outbreak update - Canada.ca

3. You claim this was all science backed, so how do we account for all the misinformation being spread by governments and medical experts at the start of this whole thing, and it's continuing today,  perhaps it was only the best medical guess that was being recommended, as we have not really experience this kind of action in this country for decades.  If it was being guided by science then why are we lifting restrictions province wide at the end of the month in several provinces... when Federal web sites above state the infection rates and death rates continue to climb...Lot's of inconsistencies in the info we are being given. while not a medical specialist even a ex grunt can tell you things are not adding up...

Things could have been handled much differently to save lives and keep people safe, and still not shutting down the country, science did not dictate that did it ? it did confirm however if you had no underlying medical conditions and under the age of 30 your chances of this virus taking your life was slim to none....but someone dictated everyone will be vaccinated regardless of reactions to the vaccine was that science based ... I think it was a best medical guess, and recommendation, someone said it would not hurt and they went for it... 

4.  A lot of that going on, calling people names dismissing all their reasons for not getting the shot with out even knowing them, just judging them and putting them into one corner....I remember how poisonous this topic became on this forum, some shouting to send them to camps, lock them up. It does give us a glimpse into a persons character.

I also know plenty of people whom decided for one reason or another  not to get vaccinated, and they happily abided by the restrictions, did not go out side their bubble for anything , had everything delivered to the house food, medication the whole lot...

one needed the passport to go to most places anyways.. the only ones allowed move freely where the vaccinated and yet some how that was not enough... It's mob mentality that grew out of control becasue of fear... most where not a threat to any vaccinated people...and here we are today, mandates collapsing and the virus still at record levels...what has changed that we do a 180...is this new change based on Science... or fatigue from being locked down...   

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1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

2.  The question is or should be what has changed since this decision was made? A lot of provinces are opening things up taking these mandates away completely, and yet death rates and the spread of covid is not showing any signs of dissipating and are on a steady increase, atleast according to according to the government web site...

 COVID-19: Outbreak update - Canada.ca

According to that website, trends are looking positive virtually everywhere, especially in Ontario where I live.  The mandates had to end and this is as good a time as any.  

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

If it was being guided by science then why are we lifting restrictions province wide at the end of the month in several provinces... when Federal web sites above state the infection rates and death rates continue to climb...Lot's of inconsistencies in the info we are being given. while not a medical specialist even a ex grunt can tell you things are not adding up...

I'm not sure where you're drawing your data from.  In the Prairies I guess those numbers don't add up, but the mandates are provincial and you'd have to ask them.

 trendpicprovince.thumb.png.d75d13cf6ca26329a77f519c2097fe98.png 

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

it did confirm however if you had no underlying medical conditions and under the age of 30 your chances of this virus taking your life was slim to none....but someone dictated everyone will be vaccinated regardless of reactions to the vaccine was that science based.

It was absolutely science-based.  These arguments are so old and boring now.  Vaccinated experience far less severe illness from COVID, stay sick for shorter periods of time, are far less likely to need hospitalization and thus are less likely to transmit the disease to others, allow it to mutate or make more vulnerable people sick.  That's the science, despite whatever the jokers here would claim.  

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

I also know plenty of people whom decided for one reason or another  not to get vaccinated, and they happily abided by the restrictions, did not go out side their bubble for anything , had everything delivered to the house food, medication the whole lot...

So do I, and those people are didn't bother anyone.  I don't think their decision was wise, but I can respect that it was their decision.  It's the fools that ranted and raved against the restrictions, spouted pseudo-scientific bullshit, called the government totalitarians and anyone who accepted the mandates woke-liberal-sheeple (or whatever) that drew all the criticism, and they deserved it.  

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

and here we are today, mandates collapsing and the virus still at record levels...what has changed that we do a 180...is this new change based on Science... or fatigue from being locked down...   

Probably both.  Conditions have improved dramatically.  We have vaccines.  We have relatively effective treatments.  Winter is ending.  Omicron is less severe, and then yeah, there's probably fatigue from being locked-down too. 

Your question seems a bit screwy though, because it sounds like there's no situation that would please you.  You want the lockdowns to end, but the fact that they're ending indicates the rationale behind them was bad?  Come on.  

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On 3/7/2022 at 4:05 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

You are pretty cavalier with other people's lives. 

This is bullshit. Just bull and no sorries. Any protection against transmission from vaccines lasts from a month to three, peer reviewed studies. There's no reason today, just none, zero. The only thing they are protecting is the privilege to make outlandish, unjustified, authoritarian and voluntaristic decisions, on as much as a hunch, a whim. And we have no checks and no controls over it. Good luck to us. Remember Putin.

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