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In the last few years, we have witnessed a delamination of civil order. From the election of President Trump to the growth of populist politicians in Eastern Europe, from the January 6th events in Washington DC to the current truck convoy in Canada, vaccine resistance and climate skeptics. These are all symptoms of a deeper problem. A segment of the world's population are angry and they feel no one is listening. My question is what is the real source ot this anger. I don't know, but if we are to reverse the trend of unfocused anger and mistrust, we need to find out what it is.

Any suggestions? 

Edited by Queenmandy85
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Lack of good paying jobs, economic mobility is stalling, inflation, wacky wars at the start of the XXIst century, public money that is mismanaged, freedoms eroding...

Lots of reasons.

The biggest one is: no one is listening, like you said in the title.

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4 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

In the last few years, we have whitnessed a delamination of civil order.From the election of President Trump to the growth od populist politicians in Eastern Europe, from the January 6th events in Washington DC to the current truck convoy in Canada, vaccine resistance and climate skeptics. These are all symptoms of a deeper problem. A segment of the world's population are angry and they feel no one is listening. My question is what is the real source ot this anger. I don't know, but if we are to reverse the trend of unfocused anger and mistrust, we need to find out what it is.

Any suggestions? 

This country is so divided right now it is hard to know who is who, the right and left will not listen to each other at all, the unvaccinated and vaccinated are so divided that they want to jail and tax the other side...We have a PM that adds to all this shit, i mean does anyone really trust this government at all, or any federal party.

It is not a segment but the majority of the population, that are beyond piss, with us starting our 3 rd year of this shit storm, and no relief in sight they are done... they want change, they want it now. 

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21 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Lack of good paying jobs, economic mobility is stalling, inflation, wacky wars at the start of the XXIst century, public money that is mismanaged, freedoms eroding...

Lots of reasons.

The biggest one is: no one is listening, like you said in the title.

This right here is right on the money. 

Populism is a backlash to the globalism we've seen since the 1990s. Unprecedented rates of wealth inequality, constant trampling underfoot by government and corporations, etc. 

The reaction you see to the populism is calculated by politicians. You can take any "conflict resolution" in school and you'll learn all about avoidance, aggressive, collaborative etc approaches. You see those coming out when the press who's largely controlled by the same folks who own politicians start using terms like "fringe". When the movements get to be too big, they'll switch approaches kinda like how corporations monetized the BLM movement or the Occupy movement and have hijacked those now. 

Most see things through the lens of how corporate interests want you to see the world. We take in way too much marketing material. None more evident than the constant screams of "you are going to die" during Covid to push you to take a vaxx

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Instead of a growing middle class as it should be, we're devolving into Feudalism with the great barons living behind walls while you toil in the virtual fields among the invading hordes. Yeah...a little betrayed. But no worries...you'll own nothing and be happy. Your new MS-13 neighbor promises to mow his lawn...soon.

:P

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An Afghan refugee just got caught diddling a 3 year old little girl in the US. This brought to you by The Swamp. By old Joe and his brave surrender to an Islamist terrorist organization. 

A virus spread across the globe in record time and has plagued the entire planet for 2 years now. Yet The Swamp has tried desperately to convince us all that it was just one of those things and sensored any questions about a virology lab in the same Chinese city this bug came from.

Police forces have been cut to bare bones across the USA because a cop acted foolishly...and killed a criminal while he was resisting arrest. Then they deified said common criminal.

Europe flooded itself with refugees and now they don't know what to do with them.

These are but a few reasons why I...and apparently a lot of others...have lost all trust in the institutions and governments. 

Now you know why.

My suggestion...When something swims like a fish and stinks like a fish...stop telling people it's a Gawd-Damn horse.

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1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

In the last few years, we have witnessed a delamination of civil order. From the election of President Trump to the growth of populist politicians in Eastern Europe, from the January 6th events in Washington DC to the current truck convoy in Canada, vaccine resistance and climate skeptics. These are all symptoms of a deeper problem. A segment of the world's population are angry and they feel no one is listening. My question is what is the real source ot this anger. I don't know, but if we are to reverse the trend of unfocused anger and mistrust, we need to find out what it is.

Any suggestions? 

I think the anger is ultimately rooted in the inability of politicians to be straight with people and the sense that not being straight has a purpose that's rarely in their interests.  People aren't oblivious to when they're being left in the dark but they do seem to be susceptible to the speculation that attends not knowing.  That speculation is now turbo-charged via an internet and social media and the angrier the speculation gets the angrier people are.

Edited by eyeball
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1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Any suggestions? 

I've actually given a ton of thought to this and to be perfectly honest I think a lot of the fault lies on what I'd say is "over-liberalization".  I don't know how to explain it perfectly, but I think there's a lot to be said about how liberal governments have been ignorant/dismissive of more conservative viewpoints, specifically in rural/non-metro areas.  I've lived in both over the years and it's like two different worlds sometimes just driving an hour away from Toronto.  

We can mock and ridicule a lot of the conspiracy nonsense that gets rambled about here, but there's a kernel of truth to some of the rage we're hearing.  Things like excessive government bureaucracy (like the public sector's salaries rising faster than private, and their unions' power), over-reaching political correctness and public services that rural provincials pay for but don't have access to are all things that have contributed (I think) to a general sense of disenfranchisement. 

Cancel-culture and self-righteous outrage have (IMO) wildly overreached and gone well beyond keeping people safe and giving them fair opportunities.  The conspiracy theorists aren't completely bullshitting us when they talk about the "woke mob" and how quickly and sometimes unfairly they'll judge and dismiss someone because they're not agreeing 100% with whatever the prevailing viewpoint of the day is.  That doesn't excuse some of the stupider bullshit that some of them come up with, but when they see the "woke mob" overreact too many times, it's hardly surprising they grow resentful and mistrusting.  

The fact that such a sizeable part of Canada's population has convinced themselves that COVID is a conspiracy and that the vaccines are some sort of scheme is pretty damning commentary for how off-the-rails everything's been getting.  For most of these folk, it's not even really about the vaccine.  It's about being forced to do something that the government and media they can't trust is telling them to.   

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Once again, this time with unparalleled in the history technology and unimaginable wealth, we're failing to create an inclusive, equitable, reason based and peaceful society. Can you have one, in honesty or with any plausibility, if those who got to the steering wheel are mostly concerned with how to duck responsibility while appointing onto themselves absurd privileges and entitlements? Is it much or in essence, any different from the old times? These can be only the first symptoms. And we don't need to guess what could be coming.

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33 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Those things are all sensible and normal problems in society, but something else is going on today.

Why is it that division and hate are actually coming from the top levels?

Because we are being manipulated by those with an agenda to disrupt society. Soros et al.

 

The Great Reset is just a conspiracy...that JT talked about openly. 

 

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The following was published last August:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/dr-makary-says-natural-immunity-is-more-effective-then-vaccine-immunity/ar-AAMX3sM

This is very good news. Yet the governments and media have done they're best to refute the conclusion that natural immunity is more effective than the vaccines.

Why? Why would our elected officials lie to us?

It's rather obvious that our elected officials and the leaders of our medical profession are bought and paid for. As for the people they are supposed to be working for? 'Fuck 'em. Money talks and the public will believe anything we tell 'em.'

Unfortunately...they're correct. Most people just want to believe. Our Libbie society has removed the traditional anchors of society like family, Gawd, even raw science. So what's left?

The government and its media outlets...The Holy Idiot Box.

Edited by Nationalist
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On 1/26/2022 at 10:00 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

In the last few years, we have witnessed a delamination of civil order. From the election of President Trump to the growth of populist politicians in Eastern Europe, from the January 6th events in Washington DC to the current truck convoy in Canada, vaccine resistance and climate skeptics. These are all symptoms of a deeper problem. A segment of the world's population are angry and they feel no one is listening. My question is what is the real source ot this anger. I don't know, but if we are to reverse the trend of unfocused anger and mistrust, we need to find out what it is.

Any suggestions? 

My suggestion Queenmandy is you are searching for a "source" although this is a new thing when it's not.

When major media shifts happen, in terms of channels of delivery, it unleashes nascent and latent emotions (like anger) that were always there but were controlled by the dominant media.  Social Media allows people to beam their anger out to the world and a seismic shift happens.

So - Charlottesville, BLM, LGBTQ, Arab Spring, Saudi Reforms... are all happening over the same media landscape.

If you want a model - look to Martin Luther who used the "new" media of the printing press to challenge the Catholic Church and unleash nascent anger and resentment over their corruption.  

And radio, telegraph, television, Cable all had different versions of this when they showed up.  I suggest you read the short and artful "The Medium is the Massage" by Marshall McLuhan and Quentin Fiore.  It's a good explanation for the higher forces at work/play

.

"The one thing the fish knows exactly nothing about is water" - McLuhan

https://opus.lib.uts.edu.au/bitstream/10453/36500/2/02whole.pdf

WE are the fish ;)

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18 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

"The one thing the fish knows exactly nothing about is water" - McLuhan

Why does it sound like another pompous-sounding nonsense? Works great though on those who never saw fish in water.

The discontent is with the system that despite its capacities and promises is failing to deliver yet again. The standard of living for a large section of a population has been dropping for decades; and everyone can see that the system could do little, and cares to do, in honesty, very little anything of substance about it. It cannot see emerging problems; understand them; come up with effective working solutions; and implement them with real visible results. And after a while it comes back to the default state of hierarchical entrenched system: spending all or almost on itself and looking for reasons why nothing else could work.

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9 minutes ago, myata said:

1. Why does it sound like another pompous-sounding nonsense?  

2. The discontent is with the system that despite its capacities and promises is failing to deliver yet again.

3. The standard of living for a large section of a population has been dropping for decades; and everyone can see that the system could do little, and cares to do, in honesty, very little anything of substance about it.

4. It cannot see emerging problems; understand them; come up with effective working solutions; and implement them with real visible results. And after a while it comes back to the default state of hierarchical entrenched system: spending all or almost on itself and looking for reasons why nothing else could work.

1.  I don't know.  Maybe if you come to a piece of information with some kind of negativity in your soul you get an emotional reaction first, rather than an intellectual one ?  Only you can know.

2.  I said as much in my post - I am saying that discontent was "managed" with tightly controlled media in the past.

3.  For sure - but also has been rising for those who are closer in kind to the neoliberal media clique. Your lament was something we heard from the left, marginally, in the 1980s and 1990s.  Did you ever see 'Roger and Me' ?
 

4. I feel like I agree with everything you posted here.
 

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7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Maybe if you come to a piece of information with some kind of negativity in your soul you get an emotional reaction first, rather than an intellectual one ? 

Have you observed fish in water? Did it look like "it knows nothing about it"? If we are not performing a mental check of what we hear, even very wise sounding (or coming from very high on, very learned, empowered entitled etc), against obvious reality how would we know that it makes sense? A wolf doesn't know anything about snow and rabbits. A sailor knows nothing about the sea. What's the meaning of this wisdom? What kind of information does it carry?

Thanks for a great example though. It can be applied readily to the reality around us. Look we have another all-time high and it means that our policy works great!

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36 minutes ago, myata said:

1. Have you observed fish in water? Did it look like "it knows nothing about it"?

2. If we are not performing a mental check of what we hear, even very wise sounding (or coming from very high on, very learned, empowered entitled etc), against obvious reality how would we know that it makes sense? A wolf doesn't know anything about snow and rabbits. A sailor knows nothing about the sea.

3. What's the meaning of this wisdom? What kind of information does it carry?

4. Look we have another all-time high and it means that our policy works great!

1. It's an analogy to make people realize that pervasive environments are difficult if not impossible to detect.  You can analyze it to the point of killing it, but I think the point of the analogy is more important than whether Mr. McLuhan knew about fishing.

2. I think that the wolves and sailor analogies don't work the same way.

3. The point is that when our large patterns of communication change, people often misunderstand why and attribute the change in society elsewhere.  Did the people of the reformation wars blame the printing press ?  Doubtful.

4.  You can attribute lots of effects to global communication changes, including trade and finance for sure.

Again, I feel like we agree completely.

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2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's an analogy to make people realize that pervasive environments are difficult if not impossible to detect.

Beyond analogies (and from the viewpoint of reality that one was not among the greatest) we need to separate communication and condition, reality. While communications, including propaganda can strongly influence perception of the condition it cannot change it. Over time, if the condition does not change the pressure arising from the seen difference between the message (e.g. "free, egalitarian and democratic society") and the reality accumulates and creates discontent. That in its turn can manifest in a number of ways until something happens.

The problems in this country are way beyond insufficient or inadequate communications. They are at the stage of a noticeable disconnect, conflict between the perceived reality ("free, egalitarian etc") and the actual one (housing, jobs, income disparity, tuition, deteriorating services..). Hiding these emergent conflicts with more and stronger propaganda will do no good in the longer run. For that, there are many, many examples. We need to be able to see, understand and solve problems and none of that is a given with the best plans and strategies on paper.

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13 hours ago, Moonbox said:

For most of these folk, it's not even really about the vaccine.  It's about being forced to do something that the government and media they can't trust is telling them to.   

It always comes back to trust and the lack thereof and it clearly works both ways because the politicians don't trust us.  They meet in-camera because they can't trust us to not go off the deep end if we hear something controversial.  I mean it's perfectly understandable why the owner of the biggest fishing fleet on the coast would love to bend the ear of some fisheries minister in private about quota allocations.  No doubt the last thing the SNC Lavalin lobbyists wanted was anyone else in-chamber with them and Canada's Justice Minister during confidential discussions regarding its issues with the legal system.

Private and confidential my ass. The fish belong to the people of Canada and that's the public's legal system. Anything that falls within the public's domain should be open to the public to enable us to look after our interests ourselves, directly. There is a clear distinct difference between secrecy and privacy and all too often they're conflated or misused in ways that demand a much stricter definition with regards to the public's right to know.  In-camera private discussions are appropriate for more mundane matters such as an employee's drinking issues impacting their performance - secrecy is for when a pulp mill operator wants to double the amount of effluent they're dumping in some fish creek.

I think doing away with in-camera lobbying would also defuse a lot of the media's ability to speculate, spin, trigger and do whatever it is they need to do to peddle themselves. 

After decades of living in this limbo of distrust, mistrust, disinformation, misinformation and just outright bullshit it's no wonder society is coming so unglued.  

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(I wrote this before reading Michael's posts)

This problem is an international one and it seems to have it's beginnings in the late 1980's and early 1990's.That seems to be the time when people lost sight of the limitations on what governments could do, and held unrealistic expectations that a government could provide services and still lower taxes.

After the great strides of the civil rights movements, racial and ethnic bigotry are on the rise. This pre-dates the internet, but social media is gasoline on the fire.

In the early nineties, the quest for international peace that grew out of east politique into glasnost and President Nixon’s establishing warmer relations with China, and the reciprocal liberalization in China has been replaced by nationalism and a rejection of strengthening of the bond in the international community.  People are turning their backs on the economic opportunities provided by free trade and we are in danger of returning to protectionism.

Another symptom is the growth of religious fundamentalism since the 1970’s and the turning away from science. Prior to that, there was a strong movement towards the great religions reaching out to one another in the ecumenical movement in the 1960’s. That relationship is under pressure from fundamentalist Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists,  Sikhs, and Jews. There are millions of people in North America who believe a carpenter in Palestine is the son of God, without a shred of actual evidence, but refuse to believe that the increase in the levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere will cause the temperature of the earth to rise, in spite of overwhelming scientific evidence. This is not aimed at creating a tangent on climate change but rather to illustrate the growth of irrational behaviour. We are supposed to be the most educated generation in history and we certainly have the resources to achieve that, so what is holding us back?

What has caused the dreams of the 1960s for a peaceful world community to sour? The idea behind the global village was to end the threat of war. What is happening to Shiller's "Alle Menschen werden Brüder." All men become brothers.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

 

1. This problem is an international one and it seems to have it's beginnings in the late 1980's and early 1990's.That seems to be the time when people lost sight of the limitations on what governments could do, and held unrealistic expectations that a government could provide services and still lower taxes.

After the great strides of the civil rights movements, racial and ethnic bigotry are on the rise. This pre-dates the internet, but social media is gasoline on the fire.

2. In the early nineties, the quest for international peace that grew out of east politique into glasnost and President Nixon’s establishing warmer relations with China, and the reciprocal liberalization in China has been replaced by nationalism and a rejection of strengthening of the bond in the international community.  People are turning their backs on the economic opportunities provided by free trade and we are in danger of returning to protectionism.

3. Another symptom is the growth of religious fundamentalism since the 1970’s ...

and the turning away from science.

4 We are supposed to be the most educated generation in history and we certainly have the resources to achieve that, so what is holding us back?

5. What has caused the dreams of the 1960s for a peaceful world community to sour? The idea behind the global village was to end the threat of war. What is happening to Shiller's "Alle Menschen werden Brüder." All men become brothers.

 

 

1. I find your take on this odd.  The 1980s was when neoliberalism took fire, and it wasn't about people independently losing trust - this was a body of thought, brought to you by Barry Goldwater, the Chicago School, Milton Friedman etc

2. Free trade has provided enormous benefits but those who have lost out are being told that the system overall doesn't work.  In practice, the losers were always supposed to lose - just not this big.  And the same system that had them lose also cut out social supports and benefits - surprise !  

3. Religiosity is on a continuous decline so I disagree with this.

4. We are - but we're hearing more and more from those left out of the winner's circle.

5. The number of people in front of the metaphorical microphone in the 1960s was small compared to today.

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