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Quebec introducing a Canadian first, taxing the unvaccinated.


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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

same sort of debates happened during smallpox outbreaks when vaccines were mandated.

It takes exactly one minute to verify how far off any relation to the reality this is:

"but about 3 out of every 10 people with the disease died" (CDC)

"Same", right. This is the essence of propaganda versus an honest discussion: it is not interested in facts, logic, meaningful arguments. Only to drive its position on everybody, anybody at any cost.

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11 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

There’s a segment of society that enjoys sticking it to people.  They can’t fathom why people wouldn’t think as they do, but they also refuse others the right to hold a different viewpoint.  Right now these are the people who are enjoying restrictions and mandates the most, especially when the penalties are high.  Sadistic control freaks.  

This is all starting to feel like a giant Milgram experiment.

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12 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

60% majority of Canadians support Health tax on unvaccinated

Let's dissect this though, can be a useful and informative exercise.

First please note that we are polling here and now about "them", specifically what to do to "them". Not our usual polling, but OK sometimes we did that like about penalties for some offenses. Not on all media waves though and for months with no end, so some difference here already. Did we notice it, the difference?

Are we going to do more of this kind of polling, with more groups and types of "them"? Why shouldn't we do more of it, now that we know it can be done and is OK?

Next consider yourself being one of the 60% who said yes, sure let's do it to them. How did I come to this decision, that this is the right measure to impose on "them"? Am I personally, and factually in danger because of "them"? Have I done extensive research to confirm a real and immediate danger from "them" and because of them, that is, clearly, evidently and causally linked to them? Or maybe I heard about it, somewhere, and possibly, several times instilling in me inner feeling of emanating danger, from them? Which one? Do I know? Did I care to examine, no not "them" just yet, but how and why am I making these choices?

And finally, if and when I hear it from some sources repeatedly like a drum, without evidence and substantiation, who is responsible for my choices? Has propaganda any role, and responsibility for the resulting outcomes?

Please check your history. Some answers may already be there.

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11 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

There’s a segment of society that enjoys sticking it to people.  They can’t fathom why people wouldn’t think as they do, but they also refuse others the right to hold a different viewpoint.  Right now these are the people who are enjoying restrictions and mandates the most, especially when the penalties are high.  Sadistic control freaks.  

Na, they just wish the drama queens would get vaccinated.

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Just now, Aristides said:

Na, they just wish the drama queens would get vaccinated

No, you have to do better than that. Just wishing does not cut it. You have to explain, intelligibly why and how 90%+ voluntary vs 99% mandatory quasi-mRNA-vaccination that does not prevent infection and transmission would make an essential factual difference for you sufficient  enough to justify persecution of arbitrarily selected (unless proven otherwise) group of population.

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2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Na, they just wish the drama queens would get vaccinated.

I wish the unvaccinated would get vaccinated as well. 

But I do not want to force the unvaccinated to get vaccinated, that is the difference. As soon as physical, financial, economic or mental force is used, it becomes an entirely different ideology. 

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5 minutes ago, myata said:

No, you have to do better than that. Just wishing does not cut it. You have to explain, intelligibly why and how 90%+ voluntary vs 99% mandatory quasi-mRNA-vaccination that does not prevent infection and transmission would make an essential factual difference for you sufficient  enough to justify persecution of arbitrarily selected (unless proven otherwise) group of population.

I can answer this.

If Canada holds a 100 % vaccination title, COVID as we know it can disappear, well at least the fear machine. Once most, if not all are forced to vaccinate, the dance and shifting from numbers, percentile, to population percentile will no longer be required. All numbers will be vaccine numbers, the "good" numbers. Yes of course numbers in the hospital and ICU will still exist, but they will only be referenced as the minority of the population, a tiny percentage, a percentage of people who already had preexisting conditions. Those numbers will not matter, 100% vaccination means there will be no need for data allocation or hospitalization data, as COVID will be "solved". Only the 100% vaccination number will matter, only the 100% number.

We will see a parade of media with titles, " No risk from COVID! thanks to the 100% vaccinations" or " COVID disappearing thanks to 100% vaccinations" 

Or 

We will see that 3 dose of the same vaccination were the wrong method. 

Edited by Winston
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19 minutes ago, Winston said:

I wish the unvaccinated would get vaccinated as well. 

But I do not want to force the unvaccinated to get vaccinated, that is the difference. As soon as physical, financial, economic or mental force is used, it becomes an entirely different ideology. 

They aren’t being forced, there is a cost being added to their behaviour. Personally I wish the subject was never thought to be necessary.

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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

The point is that virtually the same objections were made when the smallpox vaccine was introduced and mandated in many places.  Montreal went so far to go door-to-door to make sure that people were either vaccinated or had the smallpox scars. 

And anyone who thinks a treatment that reduces illness/reduces hospitalizations/reduces death "doesn't work" should eschew aspirin, antibiotics, cancer treatments, insulin and monoclonal antibodies.

 

Variola vaccines are not given to anyone, as they have side effects that are well documented. Vaccines are not a one-size-fits-all solution, it has to be carefully administered in a population that has a potential of contracting and dying of the disease, and it must be administered to people who will not suffer side effects for too long.

Contraindications exist to every treatments in the book.

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12 minutes ago, Aristides said:

They aren’t being forced, there is a cost being added to their behaviour. Personally I wish the subject was never thought to be necessary.

If there is only a tax on the unvaccinated, the fundamental statement comes down to, " because you are pro choice, you must pay a tax for this action, we will enforce this tax by first a fine and second by imprisonment if the tax is not paid" 

Yes people will come with with the ability to use physical force, escort the unvaccinated to court, where either they pay the fine(tax) or they will serve prison time. 

If they do not pay, they go to prison where people use physical and deadly force to prevent them from exiting. This is force, 100%. 

Edited by Winston
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The European Union, not quite the basement-dwelling anti-vaxer portrayed by CBC, warns about loss in effectiveness of the immune system of those who get boosters for COVID-19 vaccines.

---

European Union regulators warned that frequent Covid-19 booster shots could adversely affect the immune response and may not be feasible.  

Repeat booster doses every four months could eventually weaken the immune response and tire out people, according to the European Medicines Agency. Instead, countries should leave more time between booster programs and tie them to the onset of the cold season in each hemisphere, following the blueprint set out by influenza vaccination strategies, the agency said. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-11/repeat-booster-shots-risk-overloading-immune-system-ema-says

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55 minutes ago, Winston said:

I can answer this.

If Canada holds a 100 % vaccination title, COVID as we know it can disappear, well at least the fear machine. Once most, if not all are forced to vaccinate, the dance and shifting from numbers, percentile, to population percentile will no longer be required. All numbers will be vaccine numbers, the "good" numbers. Yes of course numbers in the hospital and ICU will still exist, but they will only be referenced as the minority of the population, a tiny percentage, a percentage of people who already had preexisting conditions. Those numbers will not matter, 100% vaccination means there will be no need for data allocation or hospitalization data, as COVID will be "solved". Only the 100% vaccination number will matter, only the 100% number.

We will see a parade of media with titles, " No risk from COVID! thanks to the 100% vaccinations" or " COVID disappearing thanks to 100% vaccinations" 

Or 

We will see that 3 dose of the same vaccination were the wrong method. 

No that’s not at all what would happen, and this is the heart of the matter.

Let’s suppose we went full bore mandatory vaccination punishable by death, the furthest possible extent of consequence.  Now you have to enforce it.  Well guess what, there will be very exceptional people who choose to die instead.  There will be some who go into hiding like Anne Frank and others who provide fraudulent proof of vaccination.  There will also be imperfect enforcement as some people get missed accidentally by the vaccination police.  In other words, it probably won’t get you past 99 or 98%.  Maybe you reduced ICU admissions by 15%

Now, we know that most of the people in the ICU have co-morbidities or are immune-compromised.  We know that fully vaccinated people end up there accounting for around three quarters of admissions.  We know that vaccination doesn’t cure or eliminate Covid, it just adds resistance to its worst symptoms for most people.  The bottom line is that ICU’s will continue to contain people with Covid.  Boost ICU capacity and you don’t have to bring in radical mandates and restrictions.

But there’s another important consideration here.  We have a mostly vaccinated population who are being asked to stick with the ongoing vaccination boost program and most are complying.  Yet restrictions and lockdowns are taking place just as they did before vaccines.  We have to ask ourselves why we are following the program if there’s no apparent improvement in our social policy.  Why are we doing all this if it doesn’t fundamentally improve our situation?  I’m for getting vaccinated, but only if restrictions are lifted.  You can’t require obedience to a mandate and offer nothing in return.  I’d far rather accept the risk of living without restrictions.  Government messaging must stop stoking fear and instead encourage people to live with the risk and take the necessary precautions on an individual basis, as people deem fit for them.

Right now there are jurisdictions without vaccine mandates, passports, mandatory masking, or other restrictions where people are living free, normal lives. They have focused on treating seriously ill people with the best available treatments and their death rates are similar to ours.  The only difference is that they are free and we aren’t.  We have to decide to drop this neurotic madness of endless restrictions that don’t eliminate Covid, and shift to personal responsibility and treatment, or else we won’t exit the pandemic, which is really endemic. Better for Omicron to get around to most people and build herd immunity than drag this out waiting for some new variant to shut us down further.

End all restrictions, take personal responsibility to protect yourself in accordance with your needs, and treat seriously ill people with the best available treatments, whether they are sick from Covid or anything else.  We must decide to brave these risks as a society and return to a much more normal, healthy life or stew in this pandemic mess forever.  It’s really a policy choice at this point.  Freedom has value and I won’t even get into the subject of fitness and mental health.

Our staff shortages are mostly the result of screening out Covid positive people who are asymptomatic or have mild symptoms and their close contacts. End the testing obsession and screening, allow parents to return to work as their kids return to on-site education, and watch staffing shortages abate.  Adding more mandates just makes it harder for employers to keep people.

Sick people stay home, just as we did pre-pandemic. Hospitals focus entirely on treating serious illness, as they did pre-pandemic.  Governments drop restrictions. Focus on acquiring the best treatments and boosting ICU capacity, and encourage vaccination as long as the science supports it.

Edited by Zeitgeist
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19 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Preserve what we can of the health care system. Being able to provide life saving surgery to women with ovarian cancer, organ transplants, etc. We are losing healthcare professionals because of the system being over whelmed.

Politicians screwed us when they whittled away the health care system from what was once the envy of the free world, to the sad (but not much talked about!) joke that it has become. One can google it if one does not remember, didn't care at the time, or's come from away.

For example-

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/canadian-health-care-performs-poorly-compared-to-other-countries-worldwide

 

This is the result of failures in decision making over the years, clawing back health care services all the while demanding more funding , and the price of administration went sky high. This is the price for giving hospital administrator positions to rich people's kids, and letting them fuck it up.

What is frustrating is that we are now being held accountable for government mismanagement. And that the enfranchised public buys into it. Hook, line and stinker...

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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

The point is that virtually the same objections were made when the smallpox vaccine was introduced and mandated in many places.  Montreal went so far to go door-to-door to make sure that people were either vaccinated or had the smallpox scars. 

And anyone who thinks a treatment that reduces illness/reduces hospitalizations/reduces death "doesn't work" should eschew aspirin, antibiotics, cancer treatments, insulin and monoclonal antibodies.

 

 

Again it worked...all these current vaccines...not at all by most data.

Historical tidbit...the world pretty much stopped inoculations for variola after about 1980...save notably for the former Soviet Union...who had weaponized the India-1967 strain of the deadly pox. Did they have some nefarious plans? Heh...you tell me.

Meanwhile...do you think the virus was made by humans in a Wuhan germ warfare lab using virus samples provided by Canada? Because that's what it looks like to me. Now...the same folks...pretty much...big pharma and pals...want us all to take their cure. And you're not suspicious?

 

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23 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

No that’s not at all what would happen, and this is the heart of the matter.

I agree that your future outlook is more realistic rather than my sarcastic reply. 

However, I believe the people responsible, politicians, medical advisors, doctors and health officers, will operate in their best interest. Meaning the actions taken will be of self interest. If there is a hint of professional misconduct or failure to provide an adequate solution in a timely manner, a "fall guy" will be required. Thus saving the majority of people responsible positions, social status and private wealth.

I would argue the more restrictions mandated, the safer the people responsible are, at least legally and socially, for now. 

Edited by Winston
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I'll add that during the bad days of variola surges when it raged unchecked through many populations...not just native indians...one wouldn't need to be reminded of the deadly aspects of the virus as one would encounter dead bodies in the streets...literally. 

Have you been tripping over corpses? I have not.

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1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Yes and my point still stands.  

No it doesn't. Variola vaccines aren't administered generally, without thought on a one size fits all basis. They have side effects that are probably among the worst among vaccines, and are not administered for people under the age of 18 due to its dangerosity to the young.

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18 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Yes and my point still stands.  

 

Variola actually kills people dead...no questions asked if it was the cause. The fever alone is usually enough in the more virulent hemorrhagic strains. While I'm sure you've seen pictures of the slower strains...covered in pox.

Covid is being sold as pretty much the modern version of pneumonic plague...drowning in your own fluids...but the mortality just isn't there. A true killer, you don't need to be threatened by another human to be convinced. The virus/bacteria will be doing so on its own. 

Edited by DogOnPorch
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1 minute ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

No it doesn't. Variola vaccines aren't administered generally, without thought on a one size fits all basis. They have side effects that are probably among the worst among vaccines, and are not administered for people under the age of 18 due to its dangerosity to the young.

Let me explain in simpler terms:

1. Smallpox was a crisis;

2. A vaccine was developed;

3.  The vaccine was made mandatory in many jurisdictions with varying degrees of enforcement, some quite harsh;

4. Antivaxers objected, using many of the same arguments used today - minus the Nazi Germany comparisons since that situation was in the future;

5.  Once the smallpox crisis passed, vaccination status became irrelevant and once the current crises passes, vax status will again become irrelevant;

6. Being Jewish in Nazi Germany never became irrelevant and comparisons drawn between the situation today and the situation in Nazi Germany fail.

If you still miss the point I can only assume it's deliberate. 

 

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And if one wants to know what a real plague looked like...look no further than Bocaccio's Decameron. Ol' Giovanni gave an eyewitness account of the outbreak in Florence. 

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/decameronintro.asp

Thirteen hundred and forty-eight years had passed since the fruitful Incarnation of the Son of God, when there came into the noble city of Florence, the most beautiful of all Italian cities, a deadly pestilence, which, either because of the operations of the heavenly bodies, or because of the just wrath of God mandating punishment for our iniquitous ways, several years earlier had originated in the Orient, where it destroyed countless lives....

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12 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

society shouldn't run on kindergarten basics

 

12 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

there is a damn good reason kindergarteners don't run the government

This is what makes it nearly impossible to communicate with conservatives - they don't like or can't seem to respond to a lot of things without changing what it is they're responding to.

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9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

5.  Once the smallpox crisis passed, vaccination status became irrelevant and once the current crises passes, vax status will again become irrelevant;

there never was a crisis with covid

and as the situation improves

more restrictions are being imposed

not less

you're just wrong

they are going to keep going

with no regards to the actual situation

Edited by Yzermandius19
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