Quebec introducing a Canadian first, taxing the unvaccinated.

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, Winston said:

What is the end goal?

Preserve what we can of the health care system. Being able to provide life saving surgery to women with ovarian cancer, organ transplants, etc. We are losing healthcare professionals because of the system being over whelmed.

[eyeball]

57 minutes ago, Winston said:

(beyond social responsibility) I am looking for actual steps, goals or end result that the individuals responsible have planned to attain pre COVID conditions. Obviously we may not know these plans, but since the steps appear to fail in providing a plan for pre COVID conditions, I question the objective.

I doubt they know themselves or that there even is a plan that isn't largely being made up on the fly.

So, I'd say the decision makers also need to think about the basics I've mentioned but unfortunately they are driven by the more selfish dictates of their political fortunes.  Like a program within a program the objective you're talking about is all within an objective.  There's an even finer need to keep them both in perspective.

Of course its probably not easy coming up with a plan the polity can buy into when millions of people swallow and regurgitate the hooey that the whole exercise is actually an attempt to usher in communism.

Edited January 12, 2022 by eyeball

[myata]

No false. Wrong again, clearly and demonstrably. No it's they who are saying are not explaining how going after a small minority will fix the long standing, chronic problems of the system. Nobody is pulling their exspert tongues to say that no "polity" or "common good" etc they chose and decided to say that consciously and deliberately and so there can be no excuses.

All the while possibly probably likely knowing that it cannot and it won't. And what it means, based on the principle of minimal entities, logic, common sense etc is that they have little clue of what to do, how to approach and manage the problem effectively and efficiently. And that means that there needs to be a distraction. Vaccination can be useful for some and many but obviously now, not a universal panacea, promised and expected. But it can still be a useful distraction. As is persecution of "misogynistic", "rasist" and generally barbarous unvaccinated. Yes we'll need to get to the perfect and unblemished 100% to see the first glimpses of the bright new dawn but not to worry, don't think too hard, and march on, zwej, drej.

Edited January 12, 2022 by myata

[Aristides]

15 minutes ago, eyeball said:

 

Of course its probably not easy coming up with a plan the polity can buy into when millions of people swallow and regurgitate the hooey that the whole exercise is actually an attempt to usher in communism.

BINGO!

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

A majority of Canadians also supported the internment of Japanese-Canadians during WW2  (War Measures Act).

So ?

So did Americans.

2/3 were American citizens.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Aristides

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Accountability Now said:

You said “it doesn’t hurt”?…only to have it kill them. Do you realize how stupid your comment is?

 

About 3 million Canadians have tested positive for Covid; 30,000 died from it.  29 million people have been vaccinated with 55 million doses administered in total; there have been 194 deaths post-vaccination.  But dying after a vaccination does not mean that the vaccination killed someone.   Ultimately, Covid hurts a lot more than vaccination.

[Accountability Now]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Why should I feel any less about the exploitive politicization and ridiculous exaggeration of the difference between 99.99 and 100 to scare the gullible into being so fearful?  

When you mandate or coerce someone into an injection where one of the outcomes is death (no matter how small it is) then the very least you can do is concede that risk is there. As you stated, Queenmandy was the one to state it wasn't. As usual, you just went with your crowd. 

The irony of your sentence above is that I could use the EXACT same words to describe my lack of fear from Covid itself. Being a healthy, young (enough) person, I have a very small chance of being hospitalized and even smaller chance of being killed by this thing. Yet the politicization and ridiculous exaggeration continues. 

 

[Accountability Now]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

   Ultimately, Covid hurts a lot more than vaccination.

Thank you for the strawman argument. I never said anything to dispute that. I said that the vaccines are not 100% and indisputably safe and you even state the same in your rebuttal. People have died from taking them. People have suffered health effects from them.  Once you acknowledge the fact that there is a risk (no matter how small) then we can have the conversation about mandating something that has risk.

[Accountability Now]

9 minutes ago, Aristides said:

So did Americans.

2/3 were American citizens.

Wow....again you miss the point. Why am I not surprised??? ?

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

Thank you for the strawman argument. I never said anything to dispute that. I said that the vaccines are not 100% and indisputably safe and you even state the same in your rebuttal. People have died from taking them. People have suffered health effects from them.  Once you acknowledge the fact that there is a risk (no matter how small) then we can have the conversation about mandating something that has risk.

I don't agree with what Quebec is doing.  But Covid is deadly, and vaccinations save lives.  If the unvaxed were only endangering themselves, there'd be a lot less concern about them.  But they create a situation that allows the virus to overwhelm our health care system.  Despite the poor math skills of anti-vax, it remains the unvaxed that are putting pressure on our health care system.

 

[QuebecOverCanada]

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I don't agree with what Quebec is doing.  But Covid is deadly, and vaccinations save lives.  If the unvaxed were only endangering themselves, there'd be a lot less concern about them.  But they create a situation that allows the virus to overwhelm our health care system.  Despite the poor math skills of anti-vax, it remains the unvaxed that are putting pressure on our health care system.

Did you know that Quebec hospitals were at 300% capacity in certain emergency rooms at this time of the year, every year, since at least 2010?

[Aristides]

16 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

Wow....again you miss the point. Why am I not surprised??? ?

Missing what point? BC is an American, just pointing out that Americans did it to the Japanese as well. As a matter of fact, over 80,000 were second and third generation Americans.

[myata]

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

But they create a situation

But that just isn't true. They are not taking most of the resources and the system is not "overwhelmed", even in the chronic "crumbling" state in which it has been since long before Covid and cannot be anything to do with unvaccinated by space-time science. Take this argument that does not exist in reality out, and what's left?

[Aristides]

20 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

Thank you for the strawman argument. I never said anything to dispute that. I said that the vaccines are not 100% and indisputably safe and you even state the same in your rebuttal. People have died from taking them. People have suffered health effects from them.  Once you acknowledge the fact that there is a risk (no matter how small) then we can have the conversation about mandating something that has risk.

Yes, if it isn't 100% we ain't takin it. Pray tell, what medication or vaccine is 100%

[Goddess]

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

But Covid is deadly

From a study from July 2021 by John P. A. Ionnidis: 

Your chances of dying from Covid if you are infected with it, in the following age groups is:

0-19 = 0.0027%

20-29 = 0.014%

30-39 = 0.031%

40-49 = 0.082%

50-59 = 0.27%

60-69 = 0.59%

Over 70 = 2.4%

IFR (Infection Fatality Rate) is: 0.15% which accommodates for over or undercounting of overall deaths (but they are most likely OVER counted.)

IFR of seasonal influenza is currently: 0.1%

In fairness, Dr. Ionnidis is opposed to prolonged lockdowns.  But I think you can see why.

[Aristides]

24 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

Thank you for the strawman argument. I never said anything to dispute that. I said that the vaccines are not 100% and indisputably safe and you even state the same in your rebuttal. People have died from taking them. People have suffered health effects from them.  Once you acknowledge the fact that there is a risk (no matter how small) then we can have the conversation about mandating something that has risk.

I personally know two people who are quite sick with this but not in hospital. Both in their 30's, double vaxxed and damn glad of it. 

[QuebecOverCanada]

French speaking video at the bottom, every time CBC/Radio-Canada and other credible news outlets, from 2010 to now, reported full emergency rooms in Québec.

Quebec has the worst ICUs in all of the Western World according to a report. 

Google translate this article; https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/785058/attente-urgence-delai-quebec-performance-commissaire-sante

Quebec emergencies post the worst performance in the Western world

The Health and Welfare Commissioner, Robert Salois, gives Quebec a very unenviable record of waiting times in emergency rooms in the province. In a report made public Thursday morning, the commissioner notes that 35% of patients who presented to the emergency room in the past year have waited more than five hours before being treated, while this proportion stands at 15 % in Ontario, 5% in Germany and the United States, and 2% in Switzerland.

To correct this problem, the Commissioner made nine recommendations.

He suggests, among others; improve front-line access by opening family medicine groups on evenings and weekends, to adjust the number of doctors available when traffic is high, to give more responsibilities to nurses (more details at the bottom of the page).

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/785058/attente-urgence-delai-quebec-performance-commissaire-sante

 

This is a systemic problem, not at the individual level. It is a problem with the healthcare management in general. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by QuebecOverCanada

[Aristides]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

From a study from July 2021 by John P. A. Ionnidis: 

Your chances of dying from Covid if you are infected with it, in the following age groups is:

0-19 = 0.0027%

20-29 = 0.014%

30-39 = 0.031%

40-49 = 0.082%

50-59 = 0.27%

60-69 = 0.59%

Over 70 = 2.4%

IFR (Infection Fatality Rate) is: 0.15% which accommodates for over or undercounting of overall deaths (but they are most likely OVER counted.)

IFR of seasonal influenza is currently: 0.1%

In fairness, Dr. Ionnidis is opposed to prolonged lockdowns.  But I think you can see why.

We all know there is nothing in between asymptomatic and death. It's one or the other.

[myata]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

40-49 = 0.082%

50-59 = 0.27%

60-69 = 0.59%

IFR of seasonal influenza is currently: 0.1%

Thanks! I also recall posting the statistics on the risk of being injured in a traffic accident, around 0.6% if memory serves me well.

[Accountability Now]

27 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 But they create a situation that allows the virus to overwhelm our health care system.  Despite the poor math skills of anti-vax, it remains the unvaxed that are putting pressure on our health care system.

I have laid out numerous graphics and figures to argue this point. Feel free to check my math skills and comment on any of those posts. In general 80% of the cases are fully vaxxed, 60-70% of the hospitalizations are fully vaxxed and 50% of the ICU are fully vaxxed. If you remove the unnvaxxed from those numbers then you still have a large problem with the reality being that the vaccination might not actually keep these unvaxxed from being in the hospital anyway!!

[Accountability Now]

20 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Missing what point? BC is an American, just pointing out that Americans did it to the Japanese as well. As a matter of fact, over 80,000 were second and third generation Americans.

The point that you make this about it being American versus Canadian when it has NOTHING to do with that. 

I'll hold your hand on this one to help you out. Just because the majority of people believe something is right, does not make it so. BC's example of the internment camps is proof. Want other proof? Check out Canada's history with the indigenous. 

But please don't let logic get in the way of your deflection

[Accountability Now]

17 minutes ago, Aristides said:

I personally know two people who are quite sick with this but not in hospital. Both in their 30's, double vaxxed and damn glad of it. 

I am currently 'sick' with it right now too. My wife just got over it. Both of us are unvaxxed and in our 40s. It was the mildest head cold that in pre-Covid times would have been a minor inconvenience and would have resulted in zero missed days from work or any other outing.

But hey...I'm sure the vaccine saved your friends from catching cancer this week too. Its that good.

[Winston]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

How do you plan for the next variant when you don't know how infectious, vaccine resistant or severe it will be? What do you suggest to support our system that we aren't doing? It takes a minimum of 4 years to produce a nurse, doctors take much more and they are in demand everywhere in the world. What do you suggest? What magic wand do you think governments can wave to fix this tomorrow? Are you prepared to pay for a huge permanent expansion in health care just to handle once in a lifetime pandemics? Would you have been prepared to pay for it before we ever heard of Covid?

Everyone is an expert when it comes to hindsight.

 

How do you plan for the next variant when you don't know how infectious, vaccine resistant or severe it will be? - Do not allow anyone in the country, evaluate the next variant globally. If the variant is from within, restrict outside zone travel. 

What do you suggest to support our system that we aren't doing? - Basing our decisions on data, for example the majority of those under 40 years old are low risk, allow every low risk person to determine their own interaction outside their home. Those that are high risk, slowly introduce them into society once the hospitals are at low capacity. 

Encourage social interactions with those of low risk to those of low risk, allow immunity to build, do not allow time for the virus to mutate drastically. Open the economy. Help those that are high risk, food, resources and assistance. 

Invest in treatments for COVID, invest in ICU equipment and hospital staff ( specifically covid trained care technicians).

What do you suggest? -Create incentives to work in hospitals, create incentives for Canadian companies to shift into medical equipment development, create incentives for training centers around covid hospital care for basic tasks, unloading the professionally trained. Bring back unvaccinated medical staff. 

Invest in vaccines, ones that are for the next global or local variant. 

Are you prepared to pay for a huge permanent expansion in health care just to handle once in a lifetime pandemics? - absolutely, but realistically as long as Canadian staff, Canadian companies and Canadian materials are used, the funds will just recirculate back into the economy anyway. 

Would you have been prepared to pay for it before we ever heard of Covid? - I did and have, and have no issue paying for health care given I have access to it 24/7. 

In the longer term, focus more on treatment and effective vaccinations, keep the economy and socialization open, both for finical health and for mental health. Fortunately viruses tend to decrease in severity.  

Everyone is an expert when it comes to hindsight. - sure, but 2 years later things are worse not better. 

Magic wand do you think governments can wave to fix this tomorrow?- not an expectation, but a plan for say 1 or even 2 years is better than no plan, just react. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Winston

[myata]

59 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

This is a systemic problem, not at the individual level. It is a problem with the healthcare management in general. 

Indeed, could not be said better. And so it seems that Covid is a near-perfect distraction from the causes and state of the system due to these problems. So perfect in fact that it's difficult to not think that if it did not come about naturally, it could be created only for that one reason. But OK no evidence of that, I concede.

And that of course, goes a long, long way to explaining the rationale for the vaccine drama spectacle that been playing for close to a year now. The moment drums and fanfares go silent, the questions will begin popping up again, and again and again. Not at all difficult to predict that, and guess why?

Edited January 12, 2022 by myata

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Did you know that Quebec hospitals were at 300% capacity in certain emergency rooms at this time of the year, every year, since at least 2010?

Are you saying you agree with the tax, then?