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Heart and cancer surgeries are being cancelled because beds are filled with those who chose not to be vaccinated. Unacceptable.


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11 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Are the unvaccinated so unhealthy, so old and have so many co-morbidities that they wind up in ICU'S at a rate multiple times more than the vaccinated?

Great question Aristides, if we had this data that would help determining risk.

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8 minutes ago, Winston said:

Same link I sent previous https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations#vaccine-status-data

May argument is that both vaccinated and unvaccinated are hospitalized at different values, with higher vaccinated hospitalizations. The ICU numbers are nearly equal as well. Thus, your argument that its the unvaccinated that are the issue is not based on the data.  

Federal Health Minister just said 50% if hospitalizations in his province of Quebec are unvaccinated which is less than 10% of population but taking half the beds. He also said provinces may make it mandatory.

 

You also forgot to mention the more important ICU numbers from your own link

Unvaccinated - 119

Partially vaccinated - 17

Fully vaccinated - 106

More ICU admissions for the tiny unvaccinated from your own link.

 
Edited by CITIZEN_2015
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4 minutes ago, Winston said:

I am asking questions, simple questions, questions that should easily be answered. I am suggesting we do not know if someone entering the hospital is entering because of covid rather than entering with covid. 

For example, I might test positive with covid, 2 days later I get a hip infection due to a prosthetic implant. Is this a covid hospitalization or a hip replacement hospitalization?

Agenda? I want real data, preferably with reason for hospitalization, age and any comorbidities, thus finding the risk to the general public.   

 

Well, if the unvaccinated are winding up in Covid ICU wards at many times the rate of the vaccinated, they must be a pretty pathetic bunch of physical specimens.

I'll ask you again, why to you apply different admission criteria to vaccinated and unvaccinated Covid patients?

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21 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Federal Health Minister just said 50% if hospitalizations in his province of Quebec are unvaccinated which is less than 10% of population but taking half the beds. He also said provinces may make it mandatory.

 

You also forgot to mention the more important ICU numbers from your own link

Unvaccinated - 119

Partially vaccinated - 17

Fully vaccinated - 106

More ICU admissions for the tiny unvaccinated from your own link.

 

"Totally frustrated that those who choose to not be vaccinated for Covid are filling up the hospital beds"

Who is filling up the most hospital beds CITIZEN_2015? 

There is 1433 vaccinated in hospital beds

There is 560 unvaccinated in hospital beds

Vaccinated patients take 2.5 x more hospital beds than unvaccinated.

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations#vaccine-status-data

Edited by Winston
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2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

 

Well, if the unvaccinated are winding up in Covid ICU wards at many times the rate of the vaccinated, they must be a pretty pathetic bunch of physical specimens.

I'll ask you again, why to you apply different admission criteria to vaccinated and unvaccinated Covid patients?

I don't, reread what I wrote, I am asking for specific data irrelevant of vaccine status. 

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On 1/5/2022 at 4:52 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Totally frustrated that those who choose to not be vaccinated for Covid are filling up the hospital beds and those who are very sick with heart disease and cancer and other major illnesses of no fault of their own have their surgeries  cancelled or postponed. Wrong people are refused treatment in my view.

This is happening because the vaccinated travelled too much around the world and brought new viruses back home.  Blame it on them.

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33 minutes ago, cougar said:

This is happening because the vaccinated travelled too much around the world and brought new viruses back home.  Blame it on them.

I do. I called on Federal government in February 2020 on this forum to close the damn borders and ban all entry to Canada. Those who choose to travel during pandemic stay out.

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There's no objective ground for vaccine mandates, simply none. They do not prevent infection and spread. And if they reduce hospitalizations, proportionally and all factors accounted for, it is nowhere near significant enough to justify such blanket population-wide measures. It's unbelievable that this is being floated by bureaucrats as let's just do it, without any serious discussion and questioning in the society. If this can be done, what could not? Finally, there's a way to find out.

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2 hours ago, Winston said:

I don't, reread what I wrote, I am asking for specific data irrelevant of vaccine status. 

 

That's not what the link you posted is about. If someone didn't go into the ICU until they got Covid, they are there because of Covid. What's so hard for you to understand?

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1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I do. I called on Federal government in February 2020 on this forum to close the damn borders and ban all entry to Canada. Those who choose to travel during pandemic stay out.

 

It might slow things down a bit but closing borders hasn't kept the new variants out of any country. 

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1 minute ago, Aristides said:

 

That's not what the link you posted is about. If someone didn't go into the ICU until they got Covid, they are there because of Covid. What's so hard for you to understand?

No, you want to claim vaccination status has no effect on ICU cases, which has been shown to be demonstrably false.

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2 hours ago, Winston said:

Same link I sent previous https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations#vaccine-status-data

My argument is that both vaccinated and unvaccinated are hospitalized at different values, with higher vaccinated hospitalizations. The ICU numbers are nearly equal as well. Thus, your argument that its the unvaccinated that are the issue is not based on the data.  

The data you posted shows clearly that they aren't equal. You are trying to argue black is white.

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29 minutes ago, Aristides said:

 

That's not what the link you posted is about. If someone didn't go into the ICU until they got Covid, they are there because of Covid. What's so hard for you to understand?

The link is related to the premise that unvaccinated individuals are the primary cause of hospital bed limitations, "who choose to not be vaccinated for Covid are filling up the hospital beds ". This is factually incorrect according to https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations#vaccine-status-data, more vaccinated patients are in hospital beds, thus the premise of the argument, at least for Ontario is false, vaccinated individuals are "filling up" hospital beds at a rate of 2.5 x more than unvaccinated. 
There are 1433 vaccinated in hospital beds.
There are 560 unvaccinated in hospital beds.

What is so hard for me to understand is your confidence in hospitalizations due to COVID, how do we know they are in the ICU due to COVID? Where is this data that indicates reason for hospitalization.

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35 minutes ago, Aristides said:

No, you want to claim vaccination status has no effect on ICU cases, which has been shown to be demonstrably false.

Please cite where I state or make this claim? 
You seem to think I am against vaccinations, I am not. I am against this idea that a person who is unvaccinated is the root cause of hospital failures.

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34 minutes ago, Aristides said:

The data you posted shows clearly that they aren't equal. You are trying to argue black is white.

Yes they are not equal, please read what I said, " nearly equal" does not mean "equal" 

The difference is 5%, between ICU unvaccinated and ICU vaccinated. Hence Nearly equal.

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10 minutes ago, Winston said:

Yes they are not equal, please read what I said, " nearly equal" does not mean "equal" 

The difference is 5%, between ICU unvaccinated and ICU vaccinated. Hence Nearly equal.

FFS the unvaccinated now represent less than 15% of the population, it could hardly be any farther from equal.

You are trying to claim that the unvaccinated Covid cases are counted differently from vaccinated Covid cases. you are just another conspiracy nut job.

 

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I'll try and make it as simple as I can. You have 100 people, 85 are vaccinated and 15 are unvaccinated. Each group has 3 people in ICU, 50/50 right. Except that means 20% of the unvaccinated are in ICU but only 3.5% of the vaccinated are in ICU. I hope that is of some help to the 50/50 crowd.

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3 minutes ago, Aristides said:

So you are willing to admit the unvaccinated are a bunch of unfit old slobs with lots of co-morbidities.

Complete nonsense.  A lot of unvaccinated are young healthy people.  There are some unfit slobs though.  As there are vaccinated unfit slobs.  Unfortunately if you’re an unfit slob, regardless of vaccination status, you can find yourself in the hospital.  Because that matters more than being vaccinated.

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2 minutes ago, Shady said:

Complete nonsense.  A lot of unvaccinated are young healthy people.  There are some unfit slobs though.  As there are vaccinated unfit slobs.  Unfortunately if you’re an unfit slob, regardless of vaccination status, you can find yourself in the hospital.  Because that matters more than being vaccinated.

Well what's the reason for the higher percentage of unvaccinated in ICU's if it isn' vaccines?

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16 minutes ago, Aristides said:

FFS the unvaccinated now represent less than 15% of the population, it could hardly be any farther from equal.

You are trying to claim that the unvaccinated Covid cases are counted differently from vaccinated Covid cases. you are just another conspiracy nut job.

 

1. I get your point, 15 % of the unvaccinated population makes up 25 % of hospitalizations and 49 % of ICU patients. 
But the argument made by CITIZEN_2015 was about who is filling up hospital beds, by number its vaccinated at a rate of 2.5x. 

2. Please cite where I state or make this claim? If not please correct this comment.
3. "you are just another conspiracy nut job." Why the Ad Hominem attack Aristides? I am asking questions, showing data right from the government. 

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3 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Well what's the reason for the higher percentage of unvaccinated in ICU's if it isn' vaccines?

I do t know.  What’s the reason fully vaccinated are overly represented in the ICU in Ontario.  It shouldn’t be 50/50 should it?  Shouldn’t the vast majority be unvaccinated?  Isn’t that what should be expected?

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12 minutes ago, Aristides said:

So you are willing to admit the unvaccinated are a bunch of unfit old slobs with lots of co-morbidities.

I would be happy to admit it, please provide the data that supports this. 

We are looking for the same data.

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