Heart and cancer surgeries are being cancelled because beds are filled with those who chose not to be vaccinated. Unacceptable.

[Winston]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

I've been reading this exchange Winston has been having. The excuses he gets for not being able to view the raw data are truly pathetic and quite revealing. 

"DON'T QUESTION OUR EXPERTS!!!"

Really...quite pathetic. 

Thanks for the comment, I was starting to wonder if maybe I was not clear in my questions.

The funny thing is, the data I am asking for probably helps the OP argument.  

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Unfortunately, as the past examples show these things tend to propel and accelerate themselves, get a momentum of their own, like an avalanche. Easy to step in, like heck to get out. Like what would it take now to say there are problems with vaccines and policies?

In a normal democratic society there would be a serious conversation about who is instigating the mania, why are they doing it, who is paying them and so on. Any chance of that? Here you go. Covid mirror. And if it weren't for the tiny-winy, how would we know?

So this is how it ends:  More and more people have to start mocking the restrictions and mandates as futile draconian attempts to control a virus that is now endemic.  End the mandates for testing, screening, masking, and vaccination.  Promote protections such as vaccination and anti-viral treatments. Treat serious illness of all kinds in hospitals, which was always their mandate (not endlessly testing every close contact of a Covid case, whether or not that person has mild, serious, or no symptoms at all).

Most people have gotten or will get Omicron and be over it in a week.  Covid is permanently part of our reality.  It’s time to return to normal, but it requires a new attitude and social outlook on Covid.  Influencers and media have to get on board as well.  Eventually public opinion should force government to follow suit.   

Edited January 8, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

I've been reading this exchange Winston has been having. The excuses he gets for not being able to view the raw data are truly pathetic and quite revealing. 

"DON'T QUESTION OUR EXPERTS!!!"

Really...quite pathetic. 

Another expert. I'm sure you could get the data if you really wanted to but you would just rather complain.

[Zeitgeist]

So pleased that we still have courageous columnists.  Rex Murphy reminds us, as too few do, about our Canadian values:

https://apple.news/AL8ClyKAqRzW1MjWiqm8ohA

[QuebecOverCanada]

On 1/5/2022 at 7:52 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Totally frustrated that those who choose to not be vaccinated for Covid are filling up the hospital beds and those who are very sick with heart disease and cancer and other major illnesses of no fault of their own have their surgeries  cancelled or postponed. Wrong people are refused treatment in my view.

Why are you always posting threads made to divide the population and never calling out government officials?

Why are you always punching down?

[Winston]

9 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Why are you always posting threads made to divide the population and never calling out government officials?

Why are you always punching down?

Exactly, this is quite concerning, divide and conquer, create hate towards those that are not responsible, thus shielding those that are responsible. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Winston

[Nationalist]

37 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Another expert. I'm sure you could get the data if you really wanted to but you would just rather complain.

I didn't say I'm an expert. Just that having easy access to all the available data, allows one to make an informed decision. We know the media don't tell us everything and accentuate that which enforces their opinions. For instance, 

"https://www.statsfind.com/the-up-to-date-covid-19-and-omicron-variant-statistics/

• From December 27, 2021, to January 2, 2022, the number of new deaths decreased by 10% compared to the previous week."

This is good news. Yet I have to go to the internet to get it because the media and politicians aren't fans of something we like to call "hope". Not only that but this is incredibly significant to making a well informed and correct decision about yourself and society as a whole.

[Zeitgeist]

Bang on.  We are exiting the pandemic but for whatever reason our politicians are maintaining narratives of fear and restrictions.  Oh, it’s because our healthcare system is overwhelmed?   Really, with our ICU’s not even half-full?   Bullshit.  

[Aristides]

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I didn't say I'm an expert. Just that having easy access to all the available data, allows one to make an informed decision. We know the media don't tell us everything and accentuate that which enforces their opinions. For instance, 

"https://www.statsfind.com/the-up-to-date-covid-19-and-omicron-variant-statistics/

• From December 27, 2021, to January 2, 2022, the number of new deaths decreased by 10% compared to the previous week."

This is good news. Yet I have to go to the internet to get it because the media and politicians aren't fans of something we like to call "hope". Not only that but this is incredibly significant to making a well informed and correct decision about yourself and society as a whole.

You can't make informed decisions if you aren't qualified to interpret the data. You cherry pick one stat from one week and call that in depth analysis? This is exactly what I'm talking about.  According to Johns Hopkins, the seven day moving average for deaths in Canada has nearly doubled in the past week.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Aristides

[myata]

4 hours ago, Winston said:

divide and conquer, create hate towards those that are not responsible, thus shielding those that are responsible. 

The narrative of fear, anxiety suspicion and control. Not checked by anything, not accountable to anyone. Maybe someone has figured it out... again.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

You can't make informed decisions if you aren't qualified to interpret the data. You cherry pick one stat from one week and call that in depth analysis? This is exactly what I'm talking about.  According to Johns Hopkins, the seven day moving average for deaths in Canada has nearly doubled in the past week.

Not qualified...more like not interested in only the fear mongering.  Omicron is not killing people and that must drive pompous assholes who hate the idea of a return to normal life, wild with frustration. 

Wouldn't you agree?

[Aristides]

12 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Not qualified...more like not interested in only the fear mongering.  Omicron is not killing people and that must drive pompous assholes who hate the idea of a return to normal life, wild with frustration. 

Wouldn't you agree?

You cherry picked one number to make a point and I cherry picked one for Canada that said exactly the opposite. Neither of us is qualified to digest all the meaningful data and draw intelligent conclusions from it.

So no. I would not agree.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Aristides

[Nationalist]

46 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You cherry picked one number to make a point and I cherry picked one for Canada that said exactly the opposite. Neither of us is qualified to digest all the meaningful data and draw intelligent conclusions from it.

So no. I would not agree.

Speak for yourself Jack.

[Aristides]

8 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Speak for yourself Jack.

Whatever. We still aren't qualified and you are not being objective if you just choose examples  to reinforce what you have already decided. That isn't analysis.

[Yzermandius19]

always blame the unvaccinated

never blame the Soviet Bread Line health care

clown city

the government is the problem, not the savior

stockholm syndrome is a helluva drug

Edited January 9, 2022 by Yzermandius19

[Army Guy]

On 1/7/2022 at 9:47 PM, Aristides said:

So you don't think the medical professionals who are dealing with this know their business or are lying to you.

Well the narrative has changed, constantly changing of the narrative brings doubt, first it was all right to mix doses, but not for the rest of the world, next was how effective they were, 2 doses and we were suppose to be covered, now we find out that the doses barely last 4 months or less, we did not need boosters , now scrambling to get those as well, one would have to ask how often do we need those. We were also told that after 80 % of the population was vaccinated this would be all over...we were also told PPE would be by now readily available, N-95 masks, etc, we would be producing our own vaccinations here, all our medical equipment would also be manufactured here. Lots of broken promises, are they lying to us, you tell me ? 

Federal government is thinking to make vaccinations mandatory, thats going to solve what exactly, ...have you seen the reactions in other countries, mass protests , riot's, Truth is we don't know shit about this crises and we are pulling it out of our ass everyday. one day the people are going to be pushed to far, and then we will see the shit hit the fan...This is not going any where until the 3 rd world is vaccinated period.... we 'll see another new years eve with restrictions, welcome to 2023...

[Army Guy]

11 hours ago, Aristides said:

Another expert. I'm sure you could get the data if you really wanted to but you would just rather complain.

That is a very good observation, none of us here, or for that matter the majority of Canadians are not experts, in any medical field...So we are now just going to have to trust the liberal government ? . A government that has on the record as lying to Canadians on COUNTLESS occasions on purpose, starting very early is Justins reign, I'm sorry his track record is not very good, Rebel news has a better track record.  Now add this false news to the mix and WTF are we suppose to believe, it's coming at us like a fire hose, and somehow we are suppose to be smart enough to sort through all of it, and at one time we could do that, but sometimes that false news is coming from the government or it's experts...

[Accountability Now]

On 1/7/2022 at 8:27 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

The latest figures for Ontario there are 2472 covid related patients in hospitals THE MAJORITY OF WHOM ARE UNVACCINATED Global News said. Considering the the vaccinated population is 8 times that of unvaccinated, this is a significant update.

Please educate yourself and actually look at the numbers rather than listening to some reporter. Its easy....here, I will provide you the direct screenshot for you to see. 1353 hospital beds and 137 ICU beds taken by people that are fully vaxxed. I get the the true comparison needs to be per 100k however here is the question that none of you guys seem to answer:

If vaccines worked then why are there 1353 people in hospital beds? At first we were told the vaccine would prevent you from contracting and spreading it. We know that is false. Now they are saying it will prevent you from severe illness.  1353 people in Ontario would beg to differ. 

If the vaccines actually worked the way they made you believe then there would only be the unvaccinated and maybe a few odd breakthrough cases. The fact is the vaccines have waned and are no longer the proper ones for this variant. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

12 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

Please educate yourself and actually look at the numbers rather than listening to some reporter. Its easy....here, I will provide you the direct screenshot for you to see. 1353 hospital beds and 137 ICU beds taken by people that are fully vaxxed. I get the the true comparison needs to be per 100k however here is the question that none of you guys seem to answer:

If vaccines worked then why are there 1353 people in hospital beds? At first we were told the vaccine would prevent you from contracting and spreading it. We know that is false. Now they are saying it will prevent you from severe illness.  1353 people in Ontario would beg to differ. 

If the vaccines actually worked the way they made you believe then there would only be the unvaccinated and maybe a few odd breakthrough cases. The fact is the vaccines have waned and are no longer the proper ones for this variant. 

Virus mutated and vaccines wanes both responsible for fully vaccinated to be still in hospitals even in ICU. The truth is vaccines only reduce the probability of severe disease (ICU admissions by 7 fold and hospital admissions by a factor of 3.4) and by smaller amount the infections but does not eliminate it. There is no vaccine in the world for any disease that can prevent infection 100%.

[Accountability Now]

5 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Virus mutated and vaccines wanes both responsible for fully vaccinated to be still in hospitals even in ICU. The truth is vaccines only reduce the probability of severe disease (ICU admissions by 7 fold and hospital admissions by a factor of 3.4) and by smaller amount the infections but does not eliminate it. There is no vaccine in the world for any disease that can prevent infection 100%.

So knowing that these vaccines have waned AND the virus has mutated to a point where it significantly evades vaccines, then WHY is every screaming at the unvaccinated? I got it when the game was early and the numbers were very conclusive but now its more like you guys are just pissed that you injected yourselves and didn't really get the reward.  I guess that is your raison d'etre in that your side is using this to get people to get boosted however IMO, they are going at it wrong. They are demonizing the people who will most likely never get a shot in hopes it convinces the others to get their booster. Instead they should leave the vaccinated out of it,  emphasize the drops in efficacy and then push the booster as a way of saying....hey, you liked that protection you had before? Well take another. 

I guess the remaining race is between how many get boosters and how many lose immunity due to vaccine waning. The reality is that if only 30% get boosters then those fully vaxxed in the ICU will continue to climb. 

[myata]

8 hours ago, Accountability Now said:

and 137 ICU beds taken by people that are fully vaxxed.

155, or 56%. "Partially vaccinated" is not a separate category like they're from Mars, still vaccinated.

[myata]

9 hours ago, Accountability Now said:

Instead they should leave the vaccinated out of it,  emphasize the drops in efficacy and then push the booster as a way of saying....hey, you liked that protection you had before?

Even more, I'd like to see a grown up intelligent conversation on what is the endgame plan and paths to exit the emergency, sky is falling, etc, pandemic mode. And to this point, I'm not sure that placing all bets on boosters would be a sustainable solution. For once we don't know how long the effective protection, against both transmission and complications, last. If it does not last long (as some early studies suggest) then it's not a solution but a bandaid. Concerns have also been raised about possible long term effects for individuals and on the population level.

Certainly, boosters need to be recommended to higher risk groups, and be available freely to anyone who wants them. They can even be mandatory in some very specific work areas subject to solid justification and ongoing monitoring/review. But that should be it. With the media hype and massive propaganda we're developing an expectation, blind belief in a panacea that may not work, and likely would not work in a longer run, sustainably. And once we're fully invested into it, there wouldn't be an easy way out.

But once again, our problem is that the interests of the bureaucracy is not in finding intelligent long term solutions serving the society, but quick and easy fixes showing that it is doing something, pretty much anything to justify its cost and keep. And in a serious challenge it can be a real, serious problem. The two just may not be the same, and no one promised that they will always be.

Edited January 9, 2022 by myata

[Nationalist]

14 hours ago, Aristides said:

Whatever. We still aren't qualified and you are not being objective if you just choose examples  to reinforce what you have already decided. That isn't analysis.

It's a damn sight better than believing the endless horse kaka the medical profession feeds us.

Ever ask yourself why treatments known to be effective, are never even mentioned by these "experts"?

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

It's a damn sight better than believing the endless horse kaka the medical profession feeds us.

Ever ask yourself why treatments known to be effective, are never even mentioned by these "experts"?

Ya, the medical profession knows nothing about disease, how many are in hospitals, what they are suffering from or what treatments work, we need more experts like you to tell us. You're hilarious. When you are on an aircraft do you also tell the pilot he doesn't know what he is doing and you should be flying?

[CITIZEN_2015]

12 hours ago, Accountability Now said:

Please educate yourself and actually look at the numbers rather than listening to some reporter. Its easy....here, I will provide you the direct screenshot for you to see. 1353 hospital beds and 137 ICU beds taken by people that are fully vaxxed. I get the the true comparison needs to be per 100k however here is the question that none of you guys seem to answer:

If vaccines worked then why are there 1353 people in hospital beds? At first we were told the vaccine would prevent you from contracting and spreading it. We know that is false. Now they are saying it will prevent you from severe illness.  1353 people in Ontario would beg to differ. 

If the vaccines actually worked the way they made you believe then there would only be the unvaccinated and maybe a few odd breakthrough cases. The fact is the vaccines have waned and are no longer the proper ones for this variant. 

In spite of virus mutations and vaccine waned most recent data from Washington State Department of Health shows highly effective vaccine results especially in vulnerable 65+ age.

https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/data-tables/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf