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Heart and cancer surgeries are being cancelled because beds are filled with those who chose not to be vaccinated. Unacceptable.


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1 minute ago, Winston said:

If you want to talk about only ICU then yes I 100% agree that over half of ICUs are occupied by unvaccinated, (leaving out partially vaccinated). 

But that brings me to the question, why? Why is a Vaccinated or unvaccinated person in ICU? Is it because of covid or is it because of another condition?

Why do you think it is otherwise? Why do you think there is some conspiracy? Do you think that if they listed the co-morbidity of every patient and when they were put in ICU you are competent to determine what was what?

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5 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Why do you think it is otherwise? Why do you think there is some conspiracy? Do you think that if they listed the co-morbidity of every patient and when they were put in ICU you are competent to determine what was what?

I don't. But I am a scientist, and I would rather see data indicating the conclusion instead of assuming the conclusion. 

"Why do you think there is some conspiracy? " Please cite where I state or make this claim? 

Please read this at least:

Why am I asking these questions? - If the vast majority of hospitalization cases are due to the comorbidities, than COVID is not a concern for the general public. But if the vast majority of hospitalization cases are due to COVID, then there is higher concern. If the hospitalization cases are in the 70+ age group, there is less of a concern. If the hospitalization cases are in the age of 40 or less, than there is greater concern.    

"Do you think that if they listed the co-morbidity of every patient and when they were put in ICU you are competent to determine what was what?" - I dont need to, I purely want to understand the risk to general public,. 

 

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1 minute ago, Winston said:

I don't. But I am a scientist, and I would rather see data indicating the conclusion instead of assuming the conclusion. 

"Why do you think there is some conspiracy? " Please cite where I state or make this claim? 

Please read this at least:

Why am I asking these questions? - If the vast majority of hospitalization cases are due to the comorbidities, than COVID is not a concern for the general public. But if the vast majority of hospitalization cases are due to COVID, then there is higher concern. If the hospitalization cases are in the 70+ age group, there is less of a concern. If the hospitalization cases are in the age of 40 or less, than there is greater concern.    

"Do you think that if they listed the co-morbidity of every patient and when they were put in ICU you are competent to determine what was what?" - I dont need to, I purely want to understand the risk to general public,. 

 

So you don't think the medical professionals who are dealing with this know their business or are lying to you.

Edited by Aristides
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1 minute ago, Aristides said:

So you don't think the medical professionals who are dealing with this know their business or are lying to you.

Reread my last post, I am asking questions, nothing more nothing less, no accusations, no conspiracy. 

 

Lets try something different. 

What is my argument or request from your understanding of my last post? 

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3 minutes ago, Winston said:

Reread my last post, I am asking questions, nothing more nothing less, no accusations, no conspiracy. 

 

Lets try something different. 

What is my argument or request from your understanding of my last post? 

Because you are demanding information for your own purposes which you won't state. Why do you need this information in the first place.

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12 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Because you are demanding information for your own purposes which you won't state. Why do you need this information in the first place.

Reread my post, my purpose is stated. 

 "Why do you need this information in the first place?"

22 minutes ago, Winston said:

Why am I asking these questions? - If the vast majority of hospitalization cases are due to the comorbidities, than COVID is not a concern for the general public. But if the vast majority of hospitalization cases are due to COVID, then there is higher concern. If the hospitalization cases are in the 70+ age group, there is less of a concern. If the hospitalization cases are in the age of 40 or less, than there is greater concern.    

 

Edited by Winston
correction on first line
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What's your problem? Even though Omricon seems to be less serious for most people, we are being told that more young people are being hospitalized. Don't you believe them? Why do they have to prove they are being up front about this. You say you are not qualified to draw conclusions from raw data so I don't think you are being up front about your motives.

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29 minutes ago, Aristides said:

What's your problem? Even though Omricon seems to be less serious for most people, we are being told that more young people are being hospitalized. Don't you believe them? Why do they have to prove they are being up front about this. You say you are not qualified to draw conclusions from raw data so I don't think you are being up front about your motives.

Why can't we see the data? Why can't I ask for the data? Why is asking for data considered a threat or a conspiracy theory?

"You say you are not qualified to draw conclusions from raw data" - Never said that, I am qualified to draw conclusion from raw data, part of my position is doing just that. Never the less, anyone should be able to view the data irrelevant of their qualifications. 

"Why do they have to prove they are being up front about this. " - In science we trust the data (assuming no tampering), but not an expert assuming a conclusion without providing data. Never assume a conclusion without verifying the data first, I am doing my due diligence.

 

Edited by Winston
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The latest figures for Ontario there are 2472 covid related patients in hospitals THE MAJORITY OF WHOM ARE UNVACCINATED Global News said. Considering the the vaccinated population is 8 times that of unvaccinated, this is a significant update.

 

Please stop campaign of misinformation. Your action may cost lives.

Edited by CITIZEN_2015
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20 minutes ago, Winston said:

Why can't we see the data? Why can't I ask for the data? Why is asking for data considered a threat or a conspiracy theory?

"You say you are not qualified to draw conclusions from raw data" - Never said that, I am qualified to draw conclusion from raw data, part of my position is doing just that. Never the less, anyone should be able to view the data irrelevant of their qualifications. 

"Why do they have to prove they are being up front about this. " - In science we trust the data (assuming no tampering), but not an expert assuming a conclusion without providing data. Never assume a conclusion without verifying the data first, I am doing my due diligence.

 

You can ask all you want but why should they be obligated to give it to you? If you are that serious, file a FOI. 

There are plenty of things where I am not qualified to analyze data and depend on those who are to do it for me. Why is this different?  I am not a doctor or immunologist so why would I think I am better qualified to decide whether they know what they are talking about?

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15 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You can ask all you want but why should they be obligated to give it to you? If you are that serious, file a FOI. 

There are plenty of things where I am not qualified to analyze data and depend on those who are to do it for me. Why is this different?  I am not a doctor or immunologist so why would I think I am better qualified to decide whether they know what they are talking about?


In part because no one in the scientific community denies access to data if they are presenting a conclusion. 
Also because their actions may effect my/our future, both in health, metal health,  finances, and societal economics.

This is not about immunology or medical procedure/methodology, this is about risk factor using stats, something a mathematician or statistician can easily accomplish. 

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4 minutes ago, Winston said:


In part because no one in the scientific community denies access to data if they are presenting a conclusion. 
Also because their actions may effect my/our future, both in health, metal health,  finances, and societal economics.

This is not about immunology or medical procedure/methodology, this is about risk factor using stats, something a mathematician or statistician can easily accomplish. 

Ya, actually it is about expertise, not internet warriors with agendas they won't admit too. Their overall impact on society is debatable but their figures are not. You and others want to put a relative value on human lives. That is not their job.

Edited by Aristides
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3 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Ya, actually it is about expertise, not internet warriors with agendas they won't admit too. Their overall impact on society is debatable but their figures are not. You and others want to put a relative value on human lives. That is not their job.

No that is a fallacy argumentum ad verecundiam, appeals to authority can only be used if we agree the authority has sufficient data to make a conclusion. I am stating there has not be sufficient data presented to make that conclusion. 

The pushback against asking for data is astounding. How is anyone supposed to determine the risk factor for themselves with out the data? 

 

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9 minutes ago, Winston said:

No that is a fallacy argumentum ad verecundiam, appeals to authority can only be used if we agree the authority has sufficient data to make a conclusion. I am stating there has not be sufficient data presented to make that conclusion. 

The pushback against asking for data is astounding. How is anyone supposed to determine the risk factor for themselves with out the data? 

 

You want to judge data that you are not qualified to do so. With conspiracy theorists under every rock, I'm not surprised they aren't willing to feed them.

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2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You want to judge data that you are not qualified to do so. With conspiracy theorists under every rock, I'm not surprised they aren't willing to feed them.

Fascinating, you would object to viewing data and being informed of the risks. This is quite concerning.  

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11 minutes ago, Winston said:

Fascinating, you would object to viewing data and being informed of the risks. This is quite concerning.  

 

11 minutes ago, Winston said:

Fascinating, you would object to viewing data and being informed of the risks. This is quite concerning.  

I am being informed of the risks and so are you.

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4 minutes ago, Winston said:

No, I am being told the risks. 

I am not being informed of the risks. If they wanted to inform me of the risks I would be allowed to examine any statistical data and allowed answers to questions.  

You are being informed of the risks. You admit you are not qualified to evaluate them but insist on being to be able too. I would hate to be your professional advisor on any issue. I would feel like I was talking to a statue.

Edited by Aristides
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Just now, Aristides said:

You are being informed of the risks. You admit you are not qualified to evaluate them but insist on being able to be able too would hate to be your professional advisor on any issue. I would feel like I was talking to a statue.

Reread my last post, maybe twice. 

"You are being informed of the risks. "- How? What data do I have access to? How can I make my own decision on my own risk without the data? 

Example If a doctor tells me to take a pill, tells me that there are basically no risks, but refuses to provide the study data on the pills side effects. I would not take the pill, would you?  

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11 hours ago, Shady said:

In Ontario, there are 119 unvaccinated in the ICU vs 106 fully vaccinated.  Why are the fully vaccinated so overly represented in the ICU?

When we are in a crisis over numbers as low as these, ratios are not important.

A caseload of 225 people in total. The system should be able to accommodate that. If it can’t, there’s something truly screwed up with the system.

Machiavellian leadership has duped you people into being at each other’s throats.

Carry on

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4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Machiavellian leadership has duped you people into being at each other’s throats.

Smell, sweet smell of fear, wish for a panacea and need of a scapegoat. Some can feel it from far away, and just could not pass by. When the system is screwed, it can be a problem. When a society loses reason, often a tragedy. Not that I want it, just looking back.

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I'm for vaccines but my confidence is waning with regards to the efficacy of these vaccines. Omicron isn't deadly  to the vast majority of people either.

CTV quietly deletes headline saying vaccinated outnumber unvaxxed in hospitals | The Post Millennial

If someone is rushed to the hospital with a knife in the chest and happens to have covid does that count as a covid hospitalization? 

Covid covid covid 24/7! The media are going all out to keep the hype going.

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Forget testing, vaccination status, and whether people have Covid.  Most people have had or are getting Covid.  Focus on treating the very sick.  That’s it.  Make the anti-viral pill, vaccines, and whatever other protections there are, available.   That’s it.  Drop all restrictions.  We can live with the virus and have normal lives.  This pandemic has become mainly psychological, because Covid is endemic.   

Edited by Zeitgeist
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7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 This pandemic has become mainly psychological, because Covid is endemic.   

Unfortunately, as the past examples show these things tend to propel and accelerate themselves, get a momentum of their own, like an avalanche. Easy to step in, like heck to get out. Like what would it take now to say there are problems with vaccines and policies?

In a normal democratic society there would be a serious conversation about who is instigating the mania, why are they doing it, who is paying them and so on. Any chance of that? Here you go. Covid mirror. And if it weren't for the tiny-winy, how would we know?

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