Shady Posted January 1, 2022 Report Share Posted January 1, 2022 10 minutes ago, BubberMiley said: But it was too hard to express in words? You also don’t seem to understand the difference between propaganda from China and simple trade products. Get professional help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 57 minutes ago, Shady said: You also don’t seem to understand the difference between propaganda from China and simple trade products. Get professional help. It's all to do with money. How do you feel about Harper locking Canada into a trade agreement for 31 years. Your "debunking" was an unfounded claim that we aren't looking locked in. But we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: Respect for individual rights and freedoms didn't flow from the church and religion, but from enlightenment philosophy, and writers who saw the damage of the religious wars. There is a great book by Ben Shapiro called "The Right Side of History - How Reason and Moral Purpose Made the West Great". Inside back cover says "Ben Shapiro is editor in chief of the Daily Wire and host of The Ben Shapiro Show, the top conservative podcast and fastest-growing radio show in the nation. A New York Times bestselling author, Shapiro is a graduate of Harvard Law School and the nation's most requested campus speaker." Shapiro argues "As a society, we are forgetting that almost everything great that has happened in history happened because of people who believed in both Judeo-Christian values and in the Greek-born power of reason. In the Right Side of History, Shapiro sprints through more than 3,500 years, dozens of philosophers, and the thicket of modern politics to show how our freedoms are built upon the twin notions that every human being is made in God's image and that human beings were created with reason that is capable of exploring God's world. We have these values to thank for the birth of science, the dream of progress, human rights, prosperity, peace, and artistic beauty. Jerusalem and Athens built America, ended slavery, defeated the Nazis and Communism, lifted billions from poverty, and gave billions more spiritual purpose. Yet we are in the process of abandoning Judeo-Christian values and Greek natural law, watching our civilization collapse into age-old tribalism, individualistic hedonism, and moral subjectivism. We believe we can satisfy ourselves with intersectionality, scientific materialism, progressive politics, authoritarian governance, or nationalistic solidarity. We can't....." Many Canadian political "leaders" think Canada is moving in the right direction by having: 1. Abortion on demand. 2. Sexual freedom, flexible gender identity, and gay marriage and any other hedonistic practices that can be brought to the fore. 3. Freedom of have doctor-assisted suicide. 4. Freedom to overturn traditional values, reject traditional ideas of justice and embrace new ideas of affirmative action under the guise of enlightenment and equality for all. 5. Marxist ideas of speech control, wealth redistribution and establishing a welfare state. 6. Banning so-called "conversion therapy" which basically means removing freedom of speech from Christian counselors who would dare encourage some LGBTQ person, who may seek their help, that they should be converted and abandon their sin. Such counsel is no different that what would be given to drug addicts, alcoholics, criminals, domestic abusers, and anyone who needs to be converted and change their behavior. But it is now a crime to do so with a certain group. One who does not subscribe to these new liberal values is considered a bigot or racist or both. Edited January 2, 2022 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 29 minutes ago, blackbird said: One who does not subscribe to these new liberal values is considered a bigot or racist or both. You are creating a false dichotomy by opposing so-called Christian-Judeo values and liberalism. Zealots like Shapiro engage in a kind of moral fatalism, but regular people can continue to live good lives without falling into these traps. Lots of Christians subscribe to some of the ideas you have decided against, including Marxism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: You are creating a false dichotomy by opposing so-called Christian-Judeo values and liberalism. Zealots like Shapiro engage in a kind of moral fatalism, but regular people can continue to live good lives without falling into these traps. Lots of Christians subscribe to some of the ideas you have decided against, including Marxism. liberalism was invented by Christians living in Christian societies without Christianity there is no liberalism the religious roots of western values and civilization is undeniable at least to anyone with a passing knowledge of the historical record the enlightenment is not atheist, it's protestant no matter what anti-religious zealots claim Edited January 2, 2022 by Yzermandius19 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 7 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: liberalism was invented by Christians living in Christian societies without Christianity there is no liberalism the religious roots of western values and civilization is undeniable at least to anyone with a passing knowledge of the historical record the enlightenment is not atheist, it's protestant All true, but to say it emerged from Christian society is not the same as saying liberalism is "Christian". And therefore the thesis of saying that since we are now abandoning Christian doctrine, we are therefore abandoning Christian values and democracy itself. Philosophy has already answered the question of whether we can live moral lives without religion - we can. I called moral fatalism... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: All true, but to say it emerged from Christian society is not the same as saying liberalism is "Christian". And therefore the thesis of saying that since we are now abandoning Christian doctrine, we are therefore abandoning Christian values and democracy itself. Philosophy has already answered the question of whether we can live moral lives without religion - we can. I called moral fatalism... without the values imparted from Christianity no one would be living a moral life philosophy would never have developed the answers that allow one to live a moral life the enlightenment wouldn't have happened you can't just start from scratch without Christianity's influence and arrive at the same answers that's not how it works you owe your sense of morality to Judeo-Christian values whether you admit it or not you did not just start from scratch, you stand on the shoulders of giants, and Judeo-Christian giants at that Edited January 2, 2022 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: 1. without the values imparted from Christianity, no one would be living a moral life 2. and philosophy would never have developed the answers that allow one to live a moral life 3. you owe your sense of morality to Judeo-Christian values whether you admit it or not 1. So Christianity is the only moral way of life ? That's demonstrably false... many non-religious and other-religious folks are moral. 2. Very arguable, as lots of non-Christians developed philosophy for life, ex. Buddhism. 3. Me personally, I absolutely concur. Good points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: 1. So Christianity is the only moral way of life ? That's demonstrably false... many non-religious and other-religious folks are moral. no, but every moral way life was heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian values and if you remove that influence from history, you'd be left with a vastly more immoral world all moral people owe a huge debt of gratitude to the Judeo-Christian values that undergird their sense of morality whether they call themselves Christian or not Edited January 2, 2022 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 8 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: no, but every moral way life was heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian values Did you miss my mention of Buddhism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 go back in time prior to Jesus and you'd be surrounded by people you find totally immoral that's not a coincidence the stark contrast of the moral evolution of humanity before and after Christ is absolutely remarkable the axial age are vastly are vastly more moral than the religions that came before them and among them Christianity is the prime example Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Did you miss my mention of Buddhism? Buddhism is a huge cut below Christianity but a huge cut above the religions that came before it axial age religions > pre-axial age religions the Buddhists of today were heavily influenced by Christian values, particularly western Buddhists Edited January 2, 2022 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) there are many people who call themselves Christians who are less Christian than many of those who don't call themselves Christians but the Christian influence is obvious nonetheless, that is what is important a rose by any other name would smell as sweet Edited January 2, 2022 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 15 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: Buddhism is a huge cut below Christianity Really. I have never seen that written. My reviews of religious analysis have always said that the two are so similar as to spark curiosity as to whether they have a common root. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Really. I have never seen that written. My reviews of religious analysis have always said that the two are so similar as to spark curiosity as to whether they have a common root. you are tunnel visioning on the similarities then Buddhism is a rather atheistic religion Christianity is a monotheistic religion huge difference our rights flow from the idea of the divine individual made in the image of god hence why Buddhists didn't notice those rights and had to have them pointed out to them by Christians before they started to catch on Edited January 2, 2022 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: you are tunnel visioning on the similarities then Buddhism is a rather atheistic religion Christianity is a monotheistic religion huge difference Yes that's the difference, but that doesn't ripple down to a change in their moral landscape. 'live and let Live' was a revolutionary new idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Yes that's the difference, but that doesn't ripple down to a change in their moral landscape. 'live and let Live' was a revolutionary new idea. yes it does ripple down live and let live is Christian thing if there were no Christians the Buddhists would not have come up with it even today are there any majority Buddhist countries who embody that live and let live attitude? it is the Christian nations who are at that bleeding edge, not the Buddhist ones, not the Atheist ones either historically speaking that gap widens even further Edited January 2, 2022 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 16 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: 1. if there were no Christians the Buddhists would not have come up with it 2. It is the Christian nations who are at that bleeding edge, not the Buddhist ones, not the Atheist ones either 1. Buddha lived 500 years before the Christian era. 2. Trying to plot a metricized relative morality of nations is so fraught... as to be a philosophical non-starter. I would suspect anyone who embarked on an exercise of trying to convert non-believers. Of course there are examples of domestic morality providing positive outcomes for societal benefit, but that's not a basis for judging a culture IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: 1. Buddha lived 500 years before the Christian era. 2. Trying to plot a metricized relative morality of nations is so fraught... as to be a philosophical non-starter. I would suspect anyone who embarked on an exercise of trying to convert non-believers. Of course there are examples of domestic morality providing positive outcomes for societal benefit, but that's not a basis for judging a culture IMO. some cultures are better than others I do not subscribe to your brand of cultural relativism that is a morally bankrupt position that fronts as if there is no good or evil, no better or no worse everything isn't equal I do not put any stock in false equivalencies Edited January 2, 2022 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: You are creating a false dichotomy by opposing so-called Christian-Judeo values and liberalism. Zealots like Shapiro engage in a kind of moral fatalism, but regular people can continue to live good lives without falling into these traps. Lots of Christians subscribe to some of the ideas you have decided against, including Marxism. You obviously simply bypassed or ignored most of what I said. The proof is there that Canada and other western countries have descended into hedonism or endless sexual immorality and have been given the blessings of government, especially left wing governments like Liberals and NDP and other parties to varying extents. And you support all this. They bless same-sex unions and LGBTQ and claim it is normal and just a personal preference. They teach it to our kids in school as a normal choice. They teach them they can be a trans gender and allow young kids to choose to be the opposite sex. This is like Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible. People who promoted this type of thing and those who support it, especially leaders bear a huge responsibility and will be held accountable by God. There will be a day of reckoning, guaranteed. Does anyone really think God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for nothing and that he will turn a blind eye to the same kind of thing in our time. Edited January 2, 2022 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: Lots of Christians subscribe to some of the ideas you have decided against, including Marxism. What ideas are you speaking about? You can't be a left wing or liberal and support LGBTQ practices and call yourself a Christian. You can't support Marxism, which opposes God and religion, and call yourself a Christian. That suggestion is ludicrous. Quote 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. {more: or, rather} 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; {to retain: or, to acknowledge} {a reprobate…: or, a mind void of judgment or, an unapproving mind} 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents. Unquote Romans 1:24-30 KJV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 3 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said: 1. I do not subscribe to your brand of cultural relativism 2. that fronts as if there is no good or evil, no better or no worse 1. You misunderstood. I was the one stating that comparing nations is fraught with problems. 2. Not sure how you got there after claiming Buddha was influenced by a guy born 500 years after he was. Unfortunately, I have the slight sense that you're trying to cut your losses after arguing everything you possibly can, rather than just conversing with me like a human being. Have a great day, whether I'm right or wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 1 hour ago, blackbird said: The proof is there that Canada and other western countries have descended into hedonism or endless sexual immorality and have been given the blessings of government, especially left wing governments like Liberals and NDP and other parties to varying extents. And you support all this. They bless same-sex unions and LGBTQ and claim it is normal and just a personal preference. I guess that's what democracy gives you. Whether or not you and I support these things doesn't matter for our discussion. There are lots of churches who support them all also. The "fall of man" narrative you're using is itself religious in nature, and very difficult to prove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 1 hour ago, blackbird said: What ideas are you speaking about? You can't be a left wing or liberal and support LGBTQ practices and call yourself a Christian. You can't support Marxism, which opposes God and religion, and call yourself a Christian. That suggestion is ludicrous. Why? Because you say so? I say the opposite. I have known many religious people who support LGBTQ rights and hard left politics. And that includes clerics. If you want to interpret scripture as excluding sinners and embracing wealth, well enjoy that. But you are plain wrong, IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G Huxley Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) Yzermandius what do you find to have been immoral in the pre-axial age and have you read Jaspers? Edited January 2, 2022 by G Huxley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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