Death by Medical Mistake is the third largest cause of death in Canadian Health Care System.

[cannuck]

9 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I take it you mean hospitals and not long term care homes with medical professionals, as we all know how privatization worked out there. 

Here we go again.   It happens that SOME privately funded and operated long term care facilities far, far exceed ANYONE's idea of what is good care.  I agree, though, that many of the "bottom end" private operations are absolutely horrible.   But the idea that just because someone is being paid by the government and belong to a union is somehow going to magically insure a caring and capable staff is total BS.

You need to do some critical thinking and when you do, you will learn to "follow the gold".  What for the most part differentiates good care from lower standards of care is how much the service delivery staff is being paid and feels they are valued.   Where government has failed miserably is not in allowing private care, but in not regulating and enforcing (the real role government SHOULD be providing) a standard of care that INCLUDES adequate compensation for employees.

Invoking the "government and unions all good" vs. "private business all bad" BS is very divisive and dishonest.

[myata]

10 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Invoking the "government and unions all good" vs. "private business all bad" BS is very divisive and dishonest.

I agree entirely. The key question for me as a user of the system is the quality and access to effective affordable care, not the label on it, and certainly not under what banner the CEO and managers are raking compensations regardless of the performance. We need to come up with working solutions, organization, processes where quality is maintained in access and care, and the ownership shouldn't even be in the picture as far as I'm concerned. The problem with the status quo that we have is that public often means nobody's, standard of quality is detached from the compensations of the management, and there's no feedback to the system from the society. Think of "fixing it for a generation" it was almost to a day a generation back.

[cannuck]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

I agree entirely. The key question for me as a user of the system is the quality and access to effective affordable care, not the label on it, and certainly not under what banner the CEO and managers are raking compensations regardless of the performance. We need to come up with working solutions, organization, processes where quality is maintained in access and care, and the ownership shouldn't even be in the picture as far as I'm concerned. The problem with the status quo that we have is that public often means nobody's, standard of quality is detached from the compensations of the management, and there's no feedback to the system from the society. Think of "fixing it for a generation" it was almost to a day a generation back.

About 20 years ago I did a lot of work in this area.  What I have come to conclude is that the fixed compensation or political/idealogic bent of systems administration are road blocks to good sick care.  I am reminded of a model I was taught at one of the largest medical universities in China, where at one time or in some areas a doctor was assigned a number of patients for life, and was then paid on the basis of who was healthy and alive.   Not that I think we need to do that, but you can see there are indeed ways to shift the emphasis on how to reward for performance, vs. penalize for failure.   Today medicine in North America is 100% about money (to most, I can tell you from experience NOT all) but it is the overall theme.  What is IMHO THE most detrimental exclusion is information - i.e. revealing truth.  This I believe is because we live in the shadow of the US LLL (Legal Liability Lottery) where admitting or being discovered to have failed at some function could open you, your employer and your insurers to massive liability.   Read the rest of this thread and you can see from our small cross section of Canadiana that those "sue the bastards" attitudes come right through even though that is NOT the way we live for the most part in this country.

[myata]

Well, the status quo insulates bureaucracy running the system into the illusion a of detachment of the process from accountability. It does not matter what they do, whatever they do there's no effect on them. This is wrong and works and against capacity of the system to improve and adapt. Moreover, the feedback from the society still exists if not in the form of an intelligent interaction, then what you mentioned.

It is possible to change of course. For example, legislation can be made to limit liability where reasonable standard of quality and care was met. But we created a system that is averse to changing, avoids and resist it at all cost. And we haven't any other. That is a problem.

[Army Guy]

5 hours ago, cannuck said:

And why would you deny me the choice of being forced to accept one model of care delivery over another?????

What we have that IMHO we need to keep is a bit of a health care system, in which information and programmes are delivered to help us be, remain or become healthy.   That is very much in the best interest of our government, as it also provides the insurance that must pay for our ignorance of health when we are sick or when tragedy results in injury.  Government here and in many countries does a decent job of funding both health and sick care.  

Where government fails miserably is in service delivery.   What we allow only on an extremely limited basis other countries allow far more private business to deliver sick care services.   In most of Canada, you can only do that if the treatment falls outside of what has been determined to be "in scope" for our state funded and administered service delivery network.  Raising this socialist "politics of envy" and very divisive attitude that if I have been fortunate or skilled enough to have some resources available that I should be denied the ability to provide for myself and my family to the best of my ability.  That IN NO WAY denies anything to anyone else, but what you suggest would be denying ME and my family that which we SHOULD be entitled to pursue.  In fact, letting private diagnostic and treatment service delivery stand side-by-side with publicly operated service REDUCES the load causing backlogs.  In such an arrangement, ANY service provided should be paid to either the public or private delivery system at the same rate, and the private ones should be free to charge the consumer whatever premium they need to provide service as a competing business.

Nobody is forcing you into anything, We already have private care available today, if you can afford it giver....What your suggesting is yet another form of health care providers, something in the middle to upper class bracket  only this branch is out to make a buck first care later, hence why i said the Ontario and Quebec long term health care facilities, or private care homes, they have no problems taking money , but don't like to provide services....Some of the other problems is doctors are human just like the rest of us, why work in a provincial hospital when they can make top dollar in the private sector, attracting all the talent to one side of the house...we also have Canadians that do not have any quality medical insurance which creates another tier of medical assistance, for instance treating Cancer, people without quality insurance programs are only entitled to base cancer treatments, the better your insurance the better your treatment and resources you have available...

Canada's health care system is no where it should be for a G-7 nation, it needs proper funding, it needs to be a national program to standardize care across the country.  It needs government leadership to bring this all together...and we don't have any of that so far.  

[Army Guy]

5 hours ago, cannuck said:

Here we go again.   It happens that SOME privately funded and operated long term care facilities far, far exceed ANYONE's idea of what is good care.  I agree, though, that many of the "bottom end" private operations are absolutely horrible.   But the idea that just because someone is being paid by the government and belong to a union is somehow going to magically insure a caring and capable staff is total BS.

You need to do some critical thinking and when you do, you will learn to "follow the gold".  What for the most part differentiates good care from lower standards of care is how much the service delivery staff is being paid and feels they are valued.   Where government has failed miserably is not in allowing private care, but in not regulating and enforcing (the real role government SHOULD be providing) a standard of care that INCLUDES adequate compensation for employees.

Invoking the "government and unions all good" vs. "private business all bad" BS is very divisive and dishonest.

Your right it was not all private care homes, but it only takes a few bad apples to spoil the entire lot...I just don't agree that adding more is going to solve our problems with health care...The way they are set up is to drain every patient of all their savings or assets period...and once that is done they drain the provinces bank as well, mind you at a much slower pace.  

I think you hit the nail on the head, government only responsibility should be regulating and enforcing quality care for all.

And trust me, i don't think that anything government/ unions run is the answer to anything, but before we add in another layer we should atleast try and fix what we have first. 

[Colin Norris]

On 12/4/2021 at 2:02 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

In the last year alone over 35000 Canadians were killed due to medical errors in Canada. This figure is double the number who died of Covid past year.

Death by medical mistake is the third largest cause of death in Canada after cancer and heart attacks.

What are the first two and what percentage is the third? 

On 12/4/2021 at 2:02 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

A powerful tax-payer funded organization by the name of CMPA (Canadian Medical Protective Association) with highly paid money hungry lawyers are defending doctors' reputations who make all those errors and keep them at their jobs to likely cause more errors and deaths.

Maybe it's be ause they were not responsible for the deaths. Did you think of that? Of course not. 

Also as a result no compensation is paid in most cases to the family of victims who as tax payers and are paying the bill for those corrupt lawyers defending the rich and powerful. 

You are deliberately avoiding they might have existing conditions which cause their death. You're coming from a hate position because you don't like public health. That's because you have never experienced it and been fed the steady diet it's creeping socialism as all Americans are. 

On 12/4/2021 at 2:02 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Shame on Canada and its sickening Public only Health Care system killing the most vulnerable being the old and sick population and those lawyers living on blood money and who defend the rich and powerful against the weak and defenseless .

Killing them my foot. You know nothing about it and you are as ignorant as a stump. Its you party the republicans who defend the rich son so get some facts ts. 

On 12/4/2021 at 2:02 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

 

 

[CITIZEN_2015]

5 hours ago, Colin Norris said:

What are the first two and what percentage is the third? 

You are deliberately avoiding they might have existing conditions which cause their death. You're coming from a hate position because you don't like public health. That's because you have never experienced it and been fed the steady diet it's creeping socialism as all Americans are. 

Killing them my foot. You know nothing about it and you are as ignorant as a stump. Its you party the republicans who defend the rich son so get some facts ts. 

 

Read the statement you have quoted. It says after cancer and heart attacks.

Also educated yourself at least in politics. Private Health is against socialism in fact public health is forced in socialistic societies. You appear not only be ignorant but unable to read what you are quoting yourself.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Death certification is an incredibly complicated issue. With the demise of the hospital autopsy, figuring out the cause of death involves a fair bit of guesswork. Understanding what death rates mean within a province is tricky enough; comparing countries is another level entirely.