Majority of Canadians support firing of unvaccinated.

[Faramir]

Well, no Canada is in no way a free society.  Everything goes well only because Canadians generally bend over and do what they are told.  I wish I remember the guys name but a decade ago a man who went to protest gun registry tore up his gun license in Ottawa.  His life was destroyed by the Ontario government.  That is the problem.  Yes there is the discussions and debates.  I wish the media played a positive role but they pretty much have thrown out their role of being skeptical.  When have they ever sided with gun advocates?  Or showed the other side of any story?  But that's another matter.  The problem is there are individuals who will take these situations and push and push and really do have ulterior motives.  Governor Cuomo sent thousands of elderly to their graves when he put infected patients one floor down in a nursing home.  Doug Ford has been a Mussolini styled dictator in Ontario.  

[dialamah]

44 minutes ago, Faramir said:

His life was destroyed by the Ontario government. 

Cite, please.

[Zeitgeist]

It’s probably already too late to restore the freedoms we used to enjoy because there are too many alarmists finding justifications for restrictions.   The populace is fearful, manipulated, and weak.  No one wants to lose their jobs, pay heavy fines, and be ridiculed for wanting to make independent choices.  Canada is China.  

[cougar]

3 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Okay what do you say to a suggestion that we debate the subject at hand and facts like mature civilized adults rather than making perisomal attacks and insults?

That would have been nice, but you started with the final conclusion before hearing any arguments.

"You , the unvaxxed, are the enemy!"  - you said.

And then you started the personal insults when it was suggested that you , in fact, may be the enemy.

You think now is the time for a debate?

It is like eating desert, then the main course and finally the salad!

[CITIZEN_2015]

9 minutes ago, cougar said:

That would have been nice, but you started with the final conclusion before hearing any arguments.

"You , the unvaxxed, are the enemy!"  - you said.

And then you started the personal insults when it was suggested that you , in fact, may be the enemy.

You think now is the time for a debate?

It is like eating desert, then the main course and finally the salad!

I made a general comment on unvaccinated not a personal attack on you or anyone mainly arguing that since friends care about their friends (not causing them harm for one) but enemies don't so they are enemies not your friends if they cough on you for example. But you quoted me and then purposely made a personal attack with insults. I only punched back AFTER I was punched. In any court you will be found guilty and me not guilty for assault.

Edited November 24, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[cougar]

1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I made a general comment on unvaccinated not a personal attack on you or anyone mainly arguing that since friends care about their friends (not causing them harm them for one) but enemies so they are. But you quoted me and then purposely made a personal attack with insult. I only punched back AFTER I was punched. In any court you will be found guilty and me not guilty for assault.

If you considered the potential of your behind being exposed to the public as an insult, then that was not the purpose of it.

Everyone has a behind, unless they are a jellyfish.

We've had this discussion in other threads for ages now.

I do not support discrimination against unvaccinated people, let alone ask they lose their jobs and be left homeless and hungry, abandoned by the system

If vaccinations are effective, everyone who wants to be protected can get vaccinated willingly.  Forcing them,  threatening them, discriminating against them, turning the rest against them......No!  This is not the way.

[Infidel Dog]

@ dialamah

The mRNA jab is useful as a therapeutic and appears to have a kind of leaky condom use as a prophylactic in some regions for some periods of time. 

Safer therapeutics like monoclonal antibodies, Ivermectin and HCL are sworn by, by enough patients and medical professionals  they need to be accessible. They aren't. That puts those of us who would prefer them in possible danger.

Adverse reactions are real and much less rare than you're being told. I had some from the first jab. Enough that I don't want to risk Guillain–Barre, Myocarditis, pericarditis or any of the other growing number of serious illnesses from a second jab. Perhaps you'd be interested in the growing number of countries that have been banning this what you call a  "vaccine' after evidence of increasing adverse reactions.

Consequences of general lockdowns or mandated passport segregation lockdowns are suicides, depression and drug addiction.

The prevalence of breakthrough infections amongst the "vaccinated" depends on the area and time period you're using as as example. Tell me about the early weeks of a delta wave in a Canadian province and I'll tell you about Gibraltar, Vermont, Israel, the UK, Iceland, Taiwan etc.

Multiple studies show the virus can spread among the unvaccinated as easily as among the vaccinated.

The mRNA jab is experimental. Nobody knows what the consequences might be. There are experts who think they might be horrific. Pharma testing was, in my opinion, fraudulent. The real test is happening right now among what they call "the vaccinated". Efficacy wanes over time (3 to 6 months) in the Big Pharma jab. It was never the 95% pharma claimed.  

You have no more moral right to punish me for some imagined harm you've been told I might cause you than I do the easily sourced possible harm you might cause me.

Every claim I've made above can be sourced upon request.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[myata]

52 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is China.

Taken out the immediate timeframe, as a potential and likelihood and balance of future probabilities, this is difficult to contest. If and when nothing checks and limits the authority the question is not if, only when.

Edited November 24, 2021 by myata

[Faramir]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s probably already too late to restore the freedoms we used to enjoy because there are too many alarmists finding justifications for restrictions.   The populace is fearful, manipulated, and weak.  No one wants to lose their jobs, pay heavy fines, and be ridiculed for wanting to make independent choices.  Canada is China.  

Agree.  We have fallen far since the WWII generation.

[Faramir]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Taken out the immediate timeframe, as a potential and likelihood and balance of future probabilities, this is difficult to contest. If and when nothing checks and limits the authority the question is not if, only when.

China is the most fascist place on the planet.  Canada is up there but in serious contention would be Germany and the UK.

[OftenWrong]

This thread ignores what was accomplished in Quebec and Ontario in regards to vaccine mandates for nurses and allied health care workers. In Quebec especially, after the old frenchmen who run la belle province rattled their sabres and pound their fist. But it was an impotent sabre, where powerful unions are concerned and they knew they would be sued, they could not win that case.

Therefore get ye to a lawyer if you can. Anything new you sign onto, means you’ve agreed to all the new terms and conditions.

[Aristides]

3 hours ago, Faramir said:

Agree.  We have fallen far since the WWII generation.

We have. That generation knew how to pull together, now it is all about me and my rights.

[dialamah]

6 hours ago, Army Guy said:

3. It infuriates me for a couple of reasons, I'm positive this could have been handled much differently, and produced better results, second while some of our rights have been infringe upon recklessly and enforced with brute force tactics such as firing, refusing live saving medical procedures, and dividing the nation into many camps, the list goes on, This is Canada and WE don't respond well to any repression be it as small as what has been seen to this point. 

4. NO vaccine is 100 % safe, very true but atleast we have establish it is not completely safe, and some have suffered deadly side effects... we are not counting a few, but substantially more, enough that some people may be hesitant, or even reluctant depending on their age group and health status, like children oir adults under the age of 25. 

The government implemented a series of precautions, one all those that could work from home do so, those that could not would wear a mask, and maintain social distancing, now if crowded schools can do this then most work places could as well, also schools and business where given mandates to have ventilation systems brought up to standard even offer government funding to do so, most failed to do this. With all these precautions being taken, most workers have nothing to worry about.

 those that do well then something could be worked out, separate work spaces for vaxed and unvaxed this list is long. we already know all those in areas deemed not nessicary restaurants , library's, bars etc, are off limits to unvaxed people, the only places you would have any contact with the unvaxed is shopping for food, drug stores, gas bars, etc... in these places everyone should be taking extra care ie use sanitary wipes to wipe off door handles, carts, even items you touch...

5. This is a good point, for a couple of reasons, this event has exposed the limitations of our health care systems not only in ICU care, but every where else, such as lack of trained staffed, equipment, the fact that there is a lot of long term care people in hospitals waiting to go to homes taking up valuable bed spaces...the question we should all have is this WHY has our government not or failed to plan for this blatant mistake, it was not in the throne speech, we could also ask the same from the provinces where is the long term home plans and solutions for all they discovered wrong in those areas... while in the military we used to train for mass causality incidents like a major plane crash, massive earth quake, etc, time after time we proved that our current medical system could not cope including those in major city centers. people where going to die that did not have to... and they have yet to fix that, even today with all the postponed operations how many deaths has it caused, and yet who is talking about it... not our politicians, not the people except those who were effected. 

6. the point is very little of them should have to lose their income, if they can make things work at GM or E-Bay i'm sure they can make things work across most places. if we where unity and working on a solution together...

7. your going to have wingnuts on both sides of this problem, and if you give them attention they will persist, ignore them and they will fade away...we have to yell louder and more often to sway opinions or so says climate Barbie.. 

8. the writing is on the wall this pandemic is not going away until the rest of the world gets on the same page , not going to happen, look at what is happening right now, the west is in a panic to vaccinate children, i know their heartt is in the right place, the question is why, the childrens odd of being effected by the virus are slim to none and yet we still have adults in poorer nations dyeing because they have no vaccinations to give...Canada still owes hundreds of thousand of doses to these countries... but we can not see past our hand, and as long as this virous continues the more it is going to mutate and require a whole new vaccination... it's a merry go round and it is not going to stop.

9.  governments are interested in one thing getting re elected, not saving lifes they will do what ever the people want them to do...if they followed medical advise we would still be in lock down, and we would have conquered this long ago.

10. And i don't believe in some world wide conspiracy to control the world, we can't even agree on cliamate change how in the hell do we agree on taking over the world, besides they give Justin to much credit he's really not that smart to even go along with it..

 

3.  I sometimes think it could have been handled differently, or better.  But I'm not sure how.  Do you have any ideas?    While I would have expected the push for vaccines to end when about 80% of the population was vaccinated, I notice that it hasn't.  That makes me wonder why, but unlike others I don't think it's because governments around the world are looking for totalitarian rule.   However, if they are giving us all the relevant facts and information about the vaccine, then I'd agree that some of the policies are a bit overboard. 

As for "leave without pay", I think that's something that each organization should be allowed to decide for itself.  In BC, at least, the government does not require employers to have any kind of vaccination policy, but some decide to implement one anyway.  Do you think that's wrong?

I agree that refusing health care to unvaxed people is absolutely wrong.

4.  I don't know that we've established that this vaccine is any more dangerous than any other vaccine that people accept.  I know stuff has been posted here, but I'm skeptical since so many of the sources are not credible to me.   However, enough has been said that I'm keeping an eye out for more information that I feel is credible.

Separating vaxed from unvaxed might be workable some places; our workspace, not so much - we don't have enough room for everyone, and people are already literally sharing desks.  And while it's nice to say that employees should have nothing to worry about because of limiting unvaxed people from other places, some of the people who are more vulnerable to Covid wouldn't come to work at all if there were unvaxed people attending, even in another part of the floor.  

5. Governments are notoriously unprepared for almost anything.  And so are people.  We in the lower mainland all understand that the "big one" is coming, yet something like 15% are actually prepared for that event with emergency supplies and water.  Government should do better, of course, but then so should people.   

One problem that I see with adequate funds or preparation for emergencies are taxes.  Lower taxes are a huge selling point at election time, but lower taxes mean fewer services and less emergency preparation.  Unless the government goes into debt which many people don't like, and it gives the other side a reason to beat up on them at election time.   

6. I would also prefer a solution that didn't involve people losing income.   GM has a mandatory vax policy, starting Dec 12, so I'm not sure what you are referring to here.  And etsy is entirely online, so a vax policy wouldn't be necessary.  

8.  Yeah, I don't think vaccinating children is necessary.  It's odd that all of last year, kids went to school full time while authorities assured us that they weren't the ones passing the virus, but now they need vaccination?  Doesn't add up to me.  This one area where I think the government has gone overboard.

9.  Yes governments want to be re-elected.  If they failed to do everything possible to save lives and keep our health system running, they wouldn't get re-elected.   And in this situation, the people who want less done in regards to this virus are in the minority, so of course the government is going to cater to the majority, who want all the precautions possible.  And, I don't think a very long-term lockdown is practical, either - too much money lost, not only for people but also for the government.  So they just do a little bit of lockdown, some restrictions and let the economy come back.  

10.  Yes, that old saw comes to mind:  Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

[myata]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

5. Governments are notoriously unprepared for almost anything. 

Which governments? Yes there are governments that were reasonably prepared, with a good quality and well supplied public healthcare system, run effectively, intelligently and efficiently. With the result, that the society did not have to be shut down and without resorting to authoritarian, unjustifiable in a modern free society, measures.

No, there isn't such a thing like simply "governments are". There are governments and governments. Governments are only reflecting the society and people in it. Yes, it seems like there are still societies where governments are kept in check by the people and aware of the lines that should not and could not be crossed. Not here though, as becoming very clear not in the least thanks to this pandemic.

[Queenmandy85]

Icu's have been filled up by covid patients, most of whom are unvaccinated. This has the result of people needing organ transplants and cancer treatment having to wait longer. The solution is to have unvaccinated covid patients put at the bottom of the wait list and allow people who are critically ill through no fault of their own, to get treatment first.

It is no doubt unethical to do that but since getting sick enough with covid to require an icu bed is basically self inflicted, it is unethical for them to displace someone who is ill through no fault of their own.

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Yes, that old saw comes to mind:  Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

I generally subscribe to that philosophy, too.  However, I am unable to give that benefit of the doubt any longer when it comes to what is going on with covid and the governments, Big Pharma and media. 

For instance, as you know, hydroxychloroquine was suggested as an early treatment protocol for covid.  The front-line doctors, nurses and scientists who were working with actual covid patients were desperate to find some kind of protocol for treating the illness, as there was no timeline for a vaccine and vaccines are generally in testing and trials for a decade before they are released to the public.  And in the meantime, people were dying.  This is actually what we SHOULD expect from front-line doctors.  It is their duty and most consider it as such.

As it was declared a pandemic, doctors and scientists from around the world formed alliances to information-share.  This is how  it was discovered that HCQ and Ivermectin were effective in treating covid, especially in the early stages.  (Ivermectin, not so much when the illness is more advanced.) I can provide you with links to prove these studies, but it really is better if you find them on your own, as you have repeatedly said, you put zero stock in any of the links I provide.  Truth be told, I doubt you would put much stock in anything not MSM.  You have already rejected Dr. Peter McCullough outright, but what you don't know (or refuse to believe) is that he is a very well-respected, well-authored doctor and he is one of the front-line doctors who treated patients with HCQ and developed the protocol for covid treatment that was downloaded almost 125,000 times by doctors all over the world.

Now, HCQ is a 65 year old formula that was approved as safe and effective for a variety of diseases and illnesses.  Literally billions of people around the world have used it without restriction, as it was available as an over-the-counter- medication, like Tylenol or aspirin.  Millions of Africans take it religiously to ward off malaria, as do tourists who visit Africa.

In the US and Canada, HCQ could be prescribed by doctors without limitation for anything they felt it could be useful for.  However, that is not the case now.

Under Federal law, NEW vaccines and medications cannot qualify for EUA (Emergency Use Authorization) if any existing approved drug or medication proves effective for an illness.

The law reads thus:

"For FDA to issue an EUA, there must be no adequate, approved, or available alternative to the product for diagnosing, preventing or treating the disease or condition...."

Obviously this was a problem for politicians and Big Pharma.  So they immediately went on the attack.

They invented fraudulent "studies" to confirm that HCQ was not only not effective, but actually dangerous to use for covid treatment.  One was conducted in England in a nursing home where patients were given 2400 mg of HCQ - a known fatal dose - instead of the usual 400mg dosage.  A nurse in the home, blew the whistle on that and publicly stated that they were purposely killing the elderly. When I first heard that story, I thought "It can't be."  It turned out I was wrong.  They were intentionally killing elderly people in this study - to prove that HCQ was not effective and dangerous to use.

Fauci then used these fraudulent "studies" to insist that HCQ be taken off the approved medications list and only be available by prescription, which doctors were then instructed NOT to prescribe under threat of losing their licenses. Fauci and others in the Big Pharma industry then gathered as many doses of HCQ as they could and literally destroyed them.  While they were doing this, they went on a public relations attack of HCQ so that the public was never informed of the actual real-world success that HCQ was having.  (This also was how Ivermectin was attacked, incidentally.)

It is no coincidence to true doctors and scientists that the poorest countries of the world, who only had access to HCQ and Ivermectin, had and still have, the LOWEST mortality rates for covid.  Far less than wealthy, industrialized nations.  So much less so, as to be shocking.

Thanks to Fauci's campaign, Americans and Canadians can no longer obtain HCQ or Ivermectin for early covid treatment.  and few are aware of its benefits, having been mislead and misinformed, manipulated and lied to so Big Pharma could reap its billions.  The public has been held hostage, waiting for imperfect vaccines, and this is why it's estimated that over 500,000 Americans died from having early treatment protocols thwarted by the very people and institutions that were supposed to protect them in a pandemic.

Fauci knowingly lied about HCQ and intentionally used his influence with the FDA to discredit and suppress alternative treatments.  And the world followed him, including Canada.

This is all documented.  This is why so many are calling for Fauci to be tried with crimes against humanity.

 

 

[Queenmandy85]

37 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Big Pharma could reap its billions

So you went out and bought stock in Pfizer?

[myata]

50 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Icu's have been filled up by covid patients, most of whom are unvaccinated.

Is it not enough of this "ICU" quasi-argument? Inefficiency and ineptitude is not an explanation or justification of authoritarian measures. It's just about poorly run system. There are countries, even now, where this is not the case. Where there's sufficient number of ICUs and the system was never in a crisis mode. But in a near-authoritarian state there's no problem in reassigning the problems of the system, and created by the system to the citizens. Why is that?

Because outdated, inept and lazy bureaucracy simply cannot create a top-notch modern effective system, no matter how many public billions are thrown at it. And then, there's always the next best option.

[Goddess]

13 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

So you went out and bought stock in Pfizer?

No.  I don't support companies who have $2 billion+ lawsuits against them for fraud and death. ?

[Queenmandy85]

42 minutes ago, myata said:

Is it not enough of this "ICU" quasi-argument? Inefficiency and ineptitude is not an explanation or justification of authoritarian measures. It's just about poorly run system. There are countries, even now, where this is not the case. Where there's sufficient number of ICUs and the system was never in a crisis mode. But in a near-authoritarian state there's no problem in reassigning the problems of the system, and created by the system to the citizens. Why is that?

Because outdated, inept and lazy bureaucracy simply cannot create a top-notch modern effective system, no matter how many public billions are thrown at it. And then, there's always the next best option.

The problem isn't with the dedicated health care professional, it is with tax payers who refuse to pay for the services they demand. Canadians want a Lamborghini system at a used VW price.

 

37 minutes ago, Goddess said:

No.  I don't support companies who have $2 billion+ lawsuits against them for fraud and death. ?

Yet, their covid vaccine has saved tens of thousands of lives.

[Queenmandy85]

48 minutes ago, Goddess said:

No.  I don't support companies who have $2 billion+ lawsuits against them for fraud and death. ?

Doesn't Big Pharma also profit off the sales of HCQ and Ivermectin? 

[myata]

10 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The problem isn't with the dedicated health care professional, it is with tax payers who refuse to pay for the services they demand. Canadians want a Lamborghini system at a used VW price.

A system has to be 1) effective and 2) efficient for those who own it and pay for it. Who is the owner makes a crucial difference for the quality of the system. Is it citizens, the people? Or abstract "crown" umbrella invented by outdated, lazy and inefficient bureaucracy? No, you cannot have both and will have to choose one. And looks like Canada has made its choice. Would throwing even more outrageous public billions at the system as it is fix ICU, waiting times, a host of shortages and so on? Everyone can figure that out, doesn't take much.

[Queenmandy85]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

A system has to be 1) effective and 2) efficient for those who own it and pay for it. Who is the owner makes a crucial difference for the quality of the system. Is it citizens, the people? Or abstract "crown" umbrella invented by outdated, lazy and inefficient bureaucracy? No, you cannot have both and will have to choose one. And looks like Canada has made its choice. Would throwing even more outrageous public billions at the system as it is fix ICU, waiting times, a host of shortages and so on? Everyone can figure that out, doesn't take much.

First, you insult the public service without any evidence. You throw dispersions around like confetti but never back them up. If you think you can do better, run for office.

Second, this late in the pandemic, you could spend even more billions to increase the number of icu beds, and when they are ready, covid will be over, hopefully, and we will have a lot of empty, very expensive icu beds, until the next plague sweeps through in 40 or 50 years, by which time, they will be obsolete. Plus, you can increase the number of beds but staffing them will take a lot longer. I doubt the taxpayers are willing to do that. Just look at what happens when the Government adds a few cents onto a litre of gasoline.

It is a lot cheaper and more efficient to get everyone vaccinated. We may have to take Austria's solution. 

In the BC Forest Service, when there was a major fire, we conscripted people. "You are going to fight fire or go to jail."

[myata]

11 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

In the BC Forest Service, when there was a major fire, we conscripted people. "You are going to fight fire or go to jail."

Right, you can hope that these methods would work in this century to solve problems and challenges it poses. You can order lowly peasant folk to move a log or clear a field but invent a leading technology or build and maintain a top notch public system? Nah thanks, not interested.

Edited November 25, 2021 by myata

[Queenmandy85]

All we are asking is to get vaccinated, not send a manned mission to the moon. Now you are calling the citizens of this country "peasants." Not good.