Majority of Canadians support firing of unvaccinated.

[cougar]

12 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

That was a reaction to your insults that you colored red moron. If you are walking on street and someone comes close and punch you in face and then you punch back, then you are not the starter of the fight.

 

???? What I colored were your insults, green moron!

By the way , there is no need to pull your pants down.  You already showed your naked butt to us with your original post.    

What did you expect was going to happen to you when you pissed against the wind?

Edited November 24, 2021 by cougar

[myata]

The topic is an ironic reality snapshot in a country that defeated Nazism some decades earlier. The lessons that (should have been) learned is that no authority deserves blind and unconditional trust, and every act and statement of any authority, under any premises and slogans needs to be examined thoroughly and critically by the citizens. If only due to hard and painful lessons learned. Just in case.

Authority cannot interfere with citizens based on an "opinion". An opinion is not an explanation and certainly not a justification, or critical test to override individual rights. This is authoritarianism, and an authoritarian always believes that their opinion is one and the only correct, a closed circle and nothing new to be learned here. Not a single sufficient argument and justification has been provided for mandatory, blanket involuntary vaccinations in perpetuity. And that already is the conclusion maybe one that we wouldn't like but only an honest reflection of the status quo, a mirror.

Without analysis, a deep and thorough discussion of options and solutions by the citizens, regardless of whether authorities participate honestly and willingly or not, this cannot be a free society. No, not anymore or possibly, who has looked at it, ever? All those posters and slogans, picture books were just that, empty words and pictures without essence and substance. And thanks to the virus - would we care to make ourselves notice if it weren't for it?

No, this much we know already and there's no need to review and revisit: democratic garlands and decorations do not make a free society. Any number of authoritarians and dictators uses them and only very lazy ones wouldn't these days. Only citizens who value reason; responsibility; and critical thought do. And now, what do you see, around?

Edited November 24, 2021 by myata

[Winston]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

The overwhelming majority of medical experts in the field say vaccination does make a difference.  While it doesn't completely prevent one from catching the virus, it reduces the chances and reduces the chances of serious illness and hospitalization.  It is morally wrong to say otherwise and try to downplay the importance of vaccination for everyone.

I cited my sources right from the "BC Centre for disease control", are they altering, falsifying or lying about there data sets? 

The data does appear to show a decreasing trend in vaccine effectiveness over time. We should be concerned about this and investigate way infection rates are increasing for vaccinated groups. 

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

None of this would matter, if the shots and boosters worked.

You're pretty much admitting what everyone already knows - they don't work.

Just the opposite in fact:. unvaxed are more likely to get sick from the virus, more likely to get hospitalized from the virus and more likely to die, 

[dialamah]

27 minutes ago, Winston said:

The data does appear to show a decreasing trend in vaccine effectiveness over time. We should be concerned about this and investigate way infection rates are increasing for vaccinated groups. 

Because the majority of people are vaccinated.  If, out of 1000 people, 800 are vaccinated, and 200 are not, and vaccinated people get sick at 1% while unvaxed get sick at 1.5%, there will be 8 vaxed sick and 3 unvaxed people sick.  So the increase you think you see, isn't.

(Percentages are used only for illustrative purposes, not saying that's what actual percentages are).

Edited November 24, 2021 by dialamah

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

 

What did you expect was going to happen to you when you pissed against the wind?

Okay what do you say to a suggestion that we debate the subject at hand and facts like mature civilized adults rather than making perisomal attacks and insults?

[myata]

20 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Just the opposite in fact:. unvaxed are more likely to get sick from the virus, more likely to get hospitalized from the virus and more likely to die,

Is it possible to have an intelligent discussion with a wall? Look, it does not work as promised, it does not prevent infection and transmission so how can you explain that it needs to be forced on everybody? But no, look it's nice rosy pink and can fly too!

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Well, I'd disagree with this - the activity of troll farms  in China, Russia and Iran to undermine the Western world's confidence in their institutions is behind a lot of the misinformation about the effectiveness of the vaccine.  The misinformation from health experts in the Western world is more that we continue to learn things about the virus as time passes.  I don't think that can even be called misinformation.

Ok, challenge accepted. 

I don't like mandates, I don't like people losing their jobs due to vaccination status either.  It makes me extremely sad.  

However, consider for a moment that what the experts are telling us is actually true: vaccinations are almost 100% safe (no vaccine is 100% safe), unvaxed people are more likely to spread the virus and shed more virus than unvaxed, more likely to make others sick than vaxed people.    Should I be forced to share my workspace with someone who is more likely to get sick and spread that sickness to me?  Given that I'm among the more vulnerable of the world, should I accept without objection the risk young, healthy unvaxed people present to me?   Should I, part of the majority of the world, be told to stay home because I'm "vulnerable", so that a person who refuses to get vaccinated can go to work?  Should businesses accept the heightened risk that multiple staff will be off work because of having unvaxed staff?  In Canada, at least, businesses have a responsibility to provide a safe work place, to the best of their ability.  If the 'best of their ability' means limiting exposure to disease, and the unvaxed increase the likelihood of spreading that disease, what should they do?

If the experts are correct that unvaxed are more likely to get sick from the virus, more likely to get hospitalized from the virus and more likely to die, should I not object when they fill up the hospitals and affect my health care?  How much more can our health care system take before it collapses completely?

Mandates suck.  But so does 'rewarding' people who get vaxed, as Chapman's found out.  Rather than use a stick to force vaccinations, they decided to use rewards to encourage vaccinations - $1.00 an hour for those who vaccinated.  In addition, they didn't require vaccinations; if you didn't want to get vaccinated, no problem - but you had to take two tests per week.  You know, that didn't matter: the anti-vax activists attacked Chapman's with a vengeance - even calling a 78-year-old man to call him a Nazi and war criminal.  

Again, mandates suck.  But I don't know what governments and businesses are supposed to do in this situation.  If they impose mandates and people still get sick, they're the bad guys.  If they don't impose mandates and even more people get sick, they're the bad guys.  If they don't impose mandates, but reward vaccination, they're the bad guys.

If someone chooses not to get vaccinated, that's their right - I agree.  They tell us they accept the risk of remaining unvaccinated - more likely to get sick, more likely to end up in hospital, more likely to die.  But the additional risk they take is loss of income, limited travel and limited social activity.  By choosing to remain unvaccinated, they accept those risks as well.  Except they don't; they hysterically call others Nazis, compare themselves to Jews, demand that nobody be concerned about the additional risk they pose to others and to our health care system.  

That's my perspective; I don't think anti-vax people are bad or evil.  I think they are misled by numerous sources of misinformation, they should accept all consequences of their decision, and let the rest of us get on with our lives without having to take extra precautions to protect ourselves from unvaccinated people.

(Of course, if you believe that governments are simply focused on control - ignoring all the restrictions they keep lifting whenever case counts go down - and that experts all over the world are in on the goal of totalitarian control, then of course nothing in the above will make any sense.)

(Also, I should have said "abortions" are not contagious, not pregnancy; they don't get passed from person to person, killing some in the process.)

1. This is where i disagree, in reference to disinformation, just take a look on this board and all the sources that have been used from both sides. and  a lot of it has been backed by some medical professional or other expert. and while i will concede there is bad info coming from Russia and china... the stuff i was talking about was from our own government or the WHO.

2. See it's true both sides can sit and talk like adults, Thank you Dialamah, 

3. It infuriates me for a couple of reasons, I'm positive this could have been handled much differently, and produced better results, second while some of our rights have been infringe upon recklessly and enforced with brute force tactics such as firing, refusing live saving medical procedures, and dividing the nation into many camps, the list goes on, This is Canada and WE don't respond well to any repression be it as small as what has been seen to this point. 

4. NO vaccine is 100 % safe, very true but atleast we have establish it is not completely safe, and some have suffered deadly side effects... we are not counting a few, but substantially more, enough that some people may be hesitant, or even reluctant depending on their age group and health status, like children oir adults under the age of 25. 

The government implemented a series of precautions, one all those that could work from home do so, those that could not would wear a mask, and maintain social distancing, now if crowded schools can do this then most work places could as well, also schools and business where given mandates to have ventilation systems brought up to standard even offer government funding to do so, most failed to do this. With all these precautions being taken, most workers have nothing to worry about.

 those that do well then something could be worked out, separate work spaces for vaxed and unvaxed this list is long. we already know all those in areas deemed not nessicary restaurants , library's, bars etc, are off limits to unvaxed people, the only places you would have any contact with the unvaxed is shopping for food, drug stores, gas bars, etc... in these places everyone should be taking extra care ie use sanitary wipes to wipe off door handles, carts, even items you touch...

5. This is a good point, for a couple of reasons, this event has exposed the limitations of our health care systems not only in ICU care, but every where else, such as lack of trained staffed, equipment, the fact that there is a lot of long term care people in hospitals waiting to go to homes taking up valuable bed spaces...the question we should all have is this WHY has our government not or failed to plan for this blatant mistake, it was not in the throne speech, we could also ask the same from the provinces where is the long term home plans and solutions for all they discovered wrong in those areas... while in the military we used to train for mass causality incidents like a major plane crash, massive earth quake, etc, time after time we proved that our current medical system could not cope including those in major city centers. people where going to die that did not have to... and they have yet to fix that, even today with all the postponed operations how many deaths has it caused, and yet who is talking about it... not our politicians, not the people except those who were effected. 

6. the point is very little of them should have to lose their income, if they can make things work at GM or E-Bay i'm sure they can make things work across most places. if we where unity and working on a solution together...

7. your going to have wingnuts on both sides of this problem, and if you give them attention they will persist, ignore them and they will fade away...we have to yell louder and more often to sway opinions or so says climate Barbie.. 

8. the writing is on the wall this pandemic is not going away until the rest of the world gets on the same page , not going to happen, look at what is happening right now, the west is in a panic to vaccinate children, i know their heartt is in the right place, the question is why, the childrens odd of being effected by the virus are slim to none and yet we still have adults in poorer nations dyeing because they have no vaccinations to give...Canada still owes hundreds of thousand of doses to these countries... but we can not see past our hand, and as long as this virous continues the more it is going to mutate and require a whole new vaccination... it's a merry go round and it is not going to stop.

 governments are interested in one thing getting re elected, not saving lifes they will do what ever the people want them to do...if they followed medical advise we would still be in lock down, and we would have conquered this long ago. And i don't believe in some world wide conspiracy to control the world, we can't even agree on cliamate change how in the hell do we agree on taking over the world, besides they give Justin to much credit he's really not that smart to even go along with it..

Your right people who pass on the virus will kill some others, those that decide on abortion will kill much more than this virus will ever kill in it's life time...which was my point we as a society have agreed it is ok to kill thousands of unborn babies by almost 3 times as many as covid has , but we draw the line when way less than .07 % of us will die due to this super flu. For me we need to rethink just how much effort we have put into this entire covid thing and step back and really compare it to all of our bigger problems like cancer, or diabetes etc.

[Goddess]

34 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Just the opposite in fact:. unvaxed are more likely to get sick from the virus, more likely to get hospitalized from the virus and more likely to die, 

You were just provided links and stats that say otherwise.  You've been provided them repeatedly.

[DogOnPorch]

41 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Just the opposite in fact:. unvaxed are more likely to get sick from the virus, more likely to get hospitalized from the virus and more likely to die, 

 

What is this virus supposed to do? Seeing you know all its details in and out...clue us in.

[Winston]

26 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Because the majority of people are vaccinated.  If, out of 1000 people, 800 are vaccinated, and 200 are not, and vaccinated people get sick at 1% while unvaxed get sick at 1.5%, there will be 8 vaxed sick and 3 unvaxed people sick.  So the increase you think you see, isn't.

(Percentages are used only for illustrative purposes, not saying that's what actual percentages are).

I thought so too, until I realized the the rates are not proportional. There is a 5% increase in vaccinated population, thus a 5% decrease in unvaccinated  population.  But there is a 8% increase in cases, a 9% increase in hospitalizations and a 14% increase in deaths for the vaccinated group. Hence why I am concerned about the increasing rates. 

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, Winston said:

I thought so too, until I realized the the rates are not proportional. There is a 5% increase in vaccinated population, thus a 5% decrease in unvaccinated  population.  But there is a 8% increase in cases, a 9% increase in hospitalizations and a 14% increase in deaths for the vaccinated group. Hence why I am concerned about the increasing rates. 

Interesting.  Are these figures available on the BCCDC site?

[blackbird]

21 minutes ago, myata said:

Is it possible to have an intelligent discussion with a wall? Look, it does not work as promised, it does not prevent infection and transmission so how can you explain that it needs to be forced on everybody? But no, look it's nice rosy pink and can fly too!

False.  You claim vaccine doesn't do anything which is false.  Should anyone believe you or believe the thousands of disease experts around the world and the health authorities? 

[Goddess]

Office for National Statistics (ONS) England, stats for March-September this year, published November:

[Winston]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Interesting.  Are these figures available on the BCCDC site?

http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/COVID_sitrep/2021-10-01-Data_Summary.pdf

http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/COVID_sitrep/2021-11-11-Data_Summary.pdf

http://www.bccdc.ca/health-info/diseases-conditions/covid-19/data

Under data summary. Keep in mind this is not raw data, this is based on the BCcdc summary. 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, RedDog said:

I don’t like the term “firing”. It’s harsh and not really accurate.

It's harsh, but the only reason that it's not accurate is that in a lot of instances it's just an unpaid leave of absence.

Quote

I prefer that X number of employees freely chose to accept unpaid leave rather than be vaccinated. The outcome is entirely in their hands.

What you prefer isn't relevant.

The fact is that the English language is very precise, and accuracy is always important, so we shouldn't just be describing things by how we personally feel about them, we should be describing them accurately & honestly.

Here's the factual statement on the matter:

Known liars who stand to gain financially from the biggest lobbyists on the planet are forcing people to choose between 1) injecting Big Pharma's experimental serum into their arm, twice, which is known to be harmful and even fatal, doesn't actually work and has unknown long-term side effects, and 2) having their livelihoods stripped away from them and also being denied the financial assistance that everyone else is getting from the gov't. These are the very people who funded the gov't for decades, in most instances they worked during covid. Now they stand to lose their homes and everything that they've worked for.

If your precious covid fighting serum 1) worked, 2) didn't kill healthy people and 3) actually stopped covid then you'd have a point, but the facts are all against you. Can you deny that the facts are all against you? You know all of these things now. You're an adult. You're supposed to deal in facts, not just propagate false narratives. 

I'll ask you again, one by one. 

 

What are the covid fighting serum's positives?

1) Does the covid fighting serum stop people from dying of covid? - No

2) Does the covid fighting serum stop people from spreading covid? - No

3) Does the limited protection of the covid fighting serum last very long? - No

 

What are the covid fighting serum's negatives? 

1) Does the covid fighting serum kill healthy people, who wouldn't have died from covid? - Yes

2) Does the covid fighting serum cause serious health problems for healthy people who aren't at risk from covid? - Yes

3) Are the long-term side effects of the covid fighting serum completely unknown? - Yes

 

Are there other good reasons for not taking the covid fighting serum?

1) The vast majority of the people who got infected with covid survived (in fact, the vast majority of the people who died from covid were over 80 with co-morbidities), and didn't have long-term side effects, so the body's immune system actually is a viable alternative for healthy people.

2) There are therapeutics which can help people in the rare instances where healthy people are struggling with covid.

 

Important considerations:

1) The people who are forcing the vaccine on us lied about natural immunity, among other things,

2) the aforementioned liars also lied to discredit literally every other form of treatment before they could even be tested.

3) People like Trudeau, Pelosi, etc, who are the main pushers of the serum, could also be credibly accused of helping to spread covid back in early 2020. 

 

Just an FYI RedDog, 97.4% of the Canadians who died of covid were over 50. IE, almost everyone. Given that 94% of the people who died of covid also had co-morbidities, it's really safe to say that approximately 100% of people under 50 who died of covid also had extremely serious health issues. This means that every healthy person under 50 who takes the serum is taking it for other people (octogenarians), and since dying is a known side effect, they're doing it at a substantial risk.

Unless you have some kind of credible, intelligent rebuttal to at least one thing that I said here, you should be singing a different tune. I'm eagerly awaiting your reply lol. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by WestCanMan

[myata]

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You claim vaccine doesn't do anything which is false.

No I did not say "anything" please read carefully, it's right there before your eyes. It's you who added it then disproved it to yourself only it had no relation to the question that was asked. Why, for what reason your folk never answers clear direct questions that are asked? I guess it has to be an answer in its own right.

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

No I did not say "anything" please read carefully, it's right there before your eyes. It's you who added it then disproved it to yourself only it had no relation to the question that was asked. Why, for what reason your folk never answers clear direct questions that are asked? I guess it has to be an answer in its own right.

You said "Look, it does not work as promised, it does not prevent infection and transmission "  Right there before our eyes.

[WestCanMan]

45 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Okay what do you say to a suggestion that we debate the subject at hand and facts like mature civilized adults rather than making perisomal attacks and insults?

You started this thread by saying that unvaccinated people are enemies, and that it's ok to strip them of their jobs, now you're asking for civility lol. Are you joking right now? 

[WestCanMan]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You said "Look, it does not work as promised, it does not prevent infection and transmission "  Right there before our eyes.

This vaccine was pimped as being able to get us to herd immunity when 70% of the population was vaxed. Now at 90% vaccination there's no herd immunity at all and vaxed people are dying. The vax nazis are now telling the 'Charlie Browns' to take a 3rd kick at that football. 

When we say that the serums are not as advertised it is 100% accurate. When we say that it doesn't prevent infection and transmission that's 100% accurate.

Sorry if the reality of the situation doesn't conform to your rigidly held beliefs, but some of us deal in facts. 

[Faramir]

Not surprised.  In their heart of hearts Canadians support tyranny.  Canada today is NOT the Canada of Laurier or MacDonald.

[Faramir]

54 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Okay what do you say to a suggestion that we debate the subject at hand and facts like mature civilized adults rather than making perisomal attacks and insults?

Ahhh....hard to get mature conversation with ANTIFA sorts.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Faramir

[Faramir]

So the deal with public services is employees are going on leave without pay.  After a certain time they will be fired.  I know, not well, but of a RCMP officer who is on leave without pay.  Frankly mandatory vaccination is NOT a sword I would personally fall on.  Free Speech is my obsession.   Not even sure what the opposition is based on for those willing to lose their jobs?  What I understand is Australia has gone down the full SS path.  They have curfews even though their deaths are a mere fraction of Canada's.

[myata]

57 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You said "Look, it does not work as promised, it does not prevent infection and transmission "  Right there before our eyes.

And so you found words "doing anyhing" in it? Congrats, you're such a genius!

[myata]

OK let's try again for an intelligent discussion. First question: can blanket requirements and restrictions be imposed on citizens because someone somewhere has an opinion?

Case 1, AIDS: transmissible, serious disease. Do we restrict HIV infected from personal contacts and relations? No. It's a matter of personal responsibility to ensure safety of others.

Case 2, flu: highly transmissible viral disease with possibility of complications including lethal. Flu vaccines exist but they don't prevent infection, and likely transmission. Do we make flu vaccination mandatory other than in specific case where it's warranted?

Case 3, driving. There are certain health conditions for example, diabetes that increase possibility of an accident including possible harm to others. I personally witnessed such an event. Do we uniformly prohibit driving based on a health condition, other than in specific cases, like blindness?

Case 4, tobacco: remember how much examination, time and effort went into establishing that tobacco is harmful for the others?

In these and other cases it is clear that citizens lives and rights cannot be restricted based only on some idea or opinion. There's a test, it has to be proven and discussed and weighed. No, a simple stamp "contagious" not an intelligent explanation and certainly not sufficient.

And now, question two:

What is the overriding reason? What test has it passed, how is it proven, where it was discussed and weighed?

And the last one, already asked: as things stand now, is it still a free society? Expecting intelligent answers to clear and simple questions.