CPC in trouble

[Queenmandy85]

The core principles of conservatives is loyalty to Queen and Country and fiscal responsibility. The Declaration of Independence was the antithesis of conservative. The rebels robbed and murdered conservatives.

[Queenmandy85]

Yzermandius, you really need to move into the real world. 

[blackbird]

5 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

As I said, voters are always right. If you disagree with them, it is you who is wrong.

I don't think so.

" 23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23 KJB

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"  Jeremiah 17:9 KJB

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The core principles of conservatives is loyalty to Queen and Country and fiscal responsibility. The Declaration of Independence was the antithesis of conservative. The rebels robbed and murdered conservatives.

when the Crown and country do not defend the right

I owe them no allegiance

when America does the job better

I applaud them for doing so

I conserve classical liberalism

when the Crown was the biggest champion of that, after the Glorious Revolution, I was on their side

when America took that mantle from the Crown, in the War of Independence, I am on their side

the Crown is not my core principle, that is dependent on them defending classical liberal ideals

if they turn against that and cave to the woke mob tearing down those ideals, then I turn against them

Edited November 19, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Queenmandy85]

Then you cannot call yourself a conservative.

[Yzermandius19]

16 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Then you cannot call yourself a conservative.

I can

I am simply for conserving something you are deranged against

I am against the French Revolution, same as Edmund Burke

 

Canada is going down the French Revolution road, and I refuse to follow it there

siding with the Reign of Terror against the Declaration of Independence is not conservative

talk about antithesis

it is you who cannot call himself a conservative

you're just projecting

America Derangement Syndrome is a helluva drug 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Army Guy]

7 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

What is the point of a "conservative" party that will intentionally lose elections. You want a "conservative" party that will be no different than the NDP; stuck in the wilderness of ideological purity.

This conversation is going around in circles, we are not on the same page on what is a conservative, and what are their prime reasons for voting conservative. The reason it is going in circles is you believe that the Tories need to be orientated towards the center to capture more of the votes, and yet i think that was already tried and failed, and to be honest i once thought that the conservative party needed a huge change, and by moving towards the center was that move...But as it turns out nothing could be father from the truth. What little gains they made with the undecided, were lost by driving membership to mad max...a party that also received more votes than the green party, not that it was hard thing to do or anything...

And while the liberals and the rest of the left are moving further left,  the right seems to be drifting towards the right. to balance the other moves as it should be.   

Nor are we on the same page on what makes a liberal, which has also moved even father to the left well into NDP territory...

History has shown that eventually the people will get tired of the same old government and they will move their votes...and while i agree we are in some unchartered waters right now, spending is not finished, but every penny should be accounted for and be driven towards a purpose, moving the country forward. not handing out checks for to every man and dog with a collar. 

 

[Army Guy]

4 hours ago, blackbird said:

Democracy per se does not necessarily bring an honest good government as we see in Canada repeatedly.  It's who is in government and what they believe that determines whether you have a good honest government or not.  Many bad governments have been democratically elected.  So it also depends on the kind of people electing them.

If that is true then judging by Justins accomplishments todate Canadians do not have the moral values they once had , in fact they are very indifferent to lies, the cheating, unethical behavior, they don't expect much out of our leadership in this nation, it says a lot about Canadians, none of it very flattering .     

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Nothing says "elites" like saying democracy is overrated.  Oh well...

Maybe it is time to over haul our democracy, maybe our current democracy is just to old and faded. Time to fix all the weak spots. get rid of our monarchy system, bring in more rights, such as property rights, restructure some of our laws, such as our laws defining traitors, going to war for another country or flag as one example, sentencing should also be looked at, as well as the entire prison and prisoner issue... redefine lobby groups and that entire process,  your could fill a book here... 

[Queenmandy85]

Part of that requires opening up the constitution and nobody is crazy enough to do that after Meech. The rest requires legislation that might be hard to get passed.

The problem the CPC is having is that some members want to bring in policies that are contrary to the desires of a large number of voters. Some of the ultra blue wing are anti abortion, some are homophobic and then there is that one guy who wants to restore power to the Queen. (That would be me). I have long ago come to the revelation that you can't always get what you want. 

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

Interestingly, if it's conservatives who are the 'bad guys', Blackbird says gently (and correctly, imo):  Democracy has some positive sides and some negative sides.  It is a fallible worldly system that can be exploited by crooked politicians and crooked people. 

But if it's liberals who are the 'bad guys', Blackbird says very unkind things (and very wrong things, imo):  If Canadians want to elect corrupt immoral governments, that is their choice. and liberal voters are too dumb to know what they are doing and  corruption and scandals of the Liberals and those who elected them.

Blackbird seems to believe that the occasional Conservative/conservative might sometimes be crooked, but that all Liberals/liberals are immoral and corrupt all the time.

I have kind have come to the same conclusion where i have constantly asked what type of person votes for the liberals given their past record, my only conclusion poor moral values, they don't care about all the scandals, or trips to the ethics commission, all the deceit, lies, lack of character in the PM, those things do not matter...I don't think liberal voters are dumb, i think they know full well what they are doing...so it comes down to moral values...

The typical answer i get is , the liberals are the lesser of the evils...they are afraid the Conservatives are going to take things away from them, like abortion, LGBT rights, or what ever other little things Justin has given out to them in bribes...Most of these items are already firmly imbedded into our culture and laws, and it would be suicide to take on any of these points, and the liberals should know that, but some how play dumb... 

Conservative government is not much better, atleast judging by their past terms in office, the difference here is O toole is really an unknown, and Justin has over 6 years under his belt.. but then again we are not asking do we trust them, but rather why do people continue to support a guy that could not really hold any other job...

[Queenmandy85]

25 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

get rid of our monarchy system

If you do that, we will have to replace her with a president with the same powers as the Queen. (Germany, Israel etc.) The main change is we would have to pay them and it would be a lot more than the GG. Worse, you would have a politician as the symbol of the nation, like another Trudeau, Mulroney or Peggy Nash. 

[Queenmandy85]

6 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

LGBT rights, or what ever other little things

Rights are not a little thing. 

[Army Guy]

8 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Part of that requires opening up the constitution and nobody is crazy enough to do that after Meech. The rest requires legislation that might be hard to get passed.

The problem the CPC is having is that some members want to bring in policies that are contrary to the desires of a large number of voters. Some of the ultra blue wing are anti abortion, some are homophobic and then there is that one guy who wants to restore power to the Queen. (That would be me). I have long ago come to the revelation that you can't always get what you want. 

I don't think it is a matter of being crazy, and Meech was a different time, i think the majority of Canadians would support redesigning our form of government from monarchy to something else perhaps a Republic, with stong ties with the commonwealth like the relationship the US has. 

I think it's because we are to lazy to change things, there is no will , and their is nothing in it for politicians.

Thats not a problem with the CPC, those points are a product of the liberal propaganda machine , talking points from the elections." people don't give Justin campaign team enough credit" ..those first two points Abortion and LGBT are no go debates, or suicide missions...  Yes there is some fringe members that like to talk about these topics, got to keep the boys back home happy, but the majority of the members would not even breech these topics...as they are not just leftist ideals but majority of both sides feel the same way...just some are not willing to dance in a parade...I'm feel the same way, what you do in your bedroom is your business, you do you and I'll do me...as long as your not doing me , I'm happy

But like everything in our time things get taken off track in a hurry, like the infinite amount of genders, or the need for special laws to protect any special interest groups when their is already laws that protect everyone.. and if they are not being used properly change that practice not create more laws...

[Army Guy]

8 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Rights are not a little thing. 

Queen thats not how i meant that to come across, i banded the 2 main rights together i did not try a diminish those rights...then added what ever other little things justin has bribed his voters with..

[Army Guy]

12 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

If you do that, we will have to replace her with a president with the same powers as the Queen. (Germany, Israel etc.) The main change is we would have to pay them and it would be a lot more than the GG. Worse, you would have a politician as the symbol of the nation, like another Trudeau, Mulroney or Peggy Nash. 

Minor points, call them what ever you want to miss piggy , grand Opa, grand teddy bear, MR apology, maybe Rambo for a meaner ring to it, but sure president works...  ...and why would we need to pay them more the job title has changed not the job... But now that you have mentioned it, paying them more would be better if we could attract better quality than we do now...

Right now Justin is a symbol of Canada like it or not...he did get elected in a democratic election... He is the grand OPA LOOPA.

[Army Guy]

4 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The core principles of conservatives is loyalty to Queen and Country and fiscal responsibility. The Declaration of Independence was the antithesis of conservative. The rebels robbed and murdered conservatives.

those days are pretty much gone, the queen is a distant memory and fading fast, Country, give me a break not many loyal to the country any more...giving to the country is also a distant thing now it is "what can you do for me" just look at how we treat people like vets, indigenous people, other races, ... If seen more loyalty in one of the smallest US states than 1 million Canada's  put together...Maybe it is just me being military we put a lot into words like loyalty, honor, integrity, to the point we would risk our lives for them or for the people whom held the same beliefs... today, i would stop everything if one of my comrades phone and was in trouble...not sure what i would do if i got the same call from our nation... Not after what has happened to vets and serving members across the country. maybe a change is what we all need to spark new life in to Canadians.

[Yzermandius19]

57 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Rights are not a little thing. 

rights > popularity

this is why democracy is overrated

majorities of Canadians support infringing on our rights

rights of minorities matter

fck the mob and the horse they rode in on

Edited November 19, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

those days are pretty much gone, the queen is a distant memory and fading fast, Country, give me a break not many loyal to the country any more...giving to the country is also a distant thing now it is "what can you do for me" just look at how we treat people like vets, indigenous people, other races, ... If seen more loyalty in one of the smallest US states than 1 million Canada's  put together...Maybe it is just me being military we put a lot into words like loyalty, honor, integrity, to the point we would risk our lives for them or for the people whom held the same beliefs... today, i would stop everything if one of my comrades phone and was in trouble...not sure what i would do if i got the same call from our nation... Not after what has happened to vets and serving members across the country. maybe a change is what we all need to spark new life in to Canadians.

I can't argue with most of what you are saying. Due to the way it is written into the constitution, the monarchy will remain but with diminishing standing.

I disagree with your assessment of loyalty of Canadians. When it is tested, I believe a lot of Canadians are loyal. My Dad used to tell me about the high level of anti-war sentiment in Vancouver in the summer of 1939. Days after war was declared, the line ups to enlist were huge. I see the loyalty at Canada Day celebrations and Saskatoon's Folk Fest. 

I don't understand the treatment of vets. People put everything on the line and they are treated with far worse than neglect afterwards. It has been that way since the Great War. The only exception would maybe be the Second World War but I really don't understand. It doesn't seem to matter which party is in power or who is the minister.

I am impressed with the younger generation's attitude towards vets on November 11, but for the rest of us, we need to remember that Remembrance Day should be 365 days a year.

[Army Guy]

11 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

.

I disagree with your assessment of loyalty of Canadians. When it is tested, I believe a lot of Canadians are loyal. My Dad used to tell me about the high level of anti-war sentiment in Vancouver in the summer of 1939. Days after war was declared, the line ups to enlist were huge. I see the loyalty at Canada Day celebrations and Saskatoon's Folk Fest. 

I don't understand the treatment of vets. People put everything on the line and they are treated with far worse than neglect afterwards. It has been that way since the Great War. The only exception would maybe be the Second World War but I really don't understand. It doesn't seem to matter which party is in power or who is the minister.

I am impressed with the younger generation's attitude towards vets on November 11, but for the rest of us, we need to remember that Remembrance Day should be 365 days a year.

Don't get me wrong there are some very loyal Canadians still left, take for instance those that are still serving today, I remember after the twin towers came down, recruitment for the military sky rocketed by the amount of applications being received, but DND was not mandated to increase any numbers.. but that did not last long... 

I also remember my first tour to Afghanistan, , all along the route there were people lining the sides of the road ways cheering us on...by my second tour there was nothing, a few hand shakes at the local bars, which is the way i wanted it, nice and quite , by my 3 rd tour Afghanistan was a 4 letter word, Canadians had lost total interest in the mission, and with no support of course there was no new money for the mission, no new equipment, training in Canada was almost non existent, due to shortage of funds... see the feds where taking the entire Afghanistan mission out of DND budget which dove well into the red for years...

I know lots of soldiers whose lives might have been saved had we had better equipment, from wearing green combat clothing in the desert, to open air jeeps, to having 40 year old tanks with no air conditioning, no helos to fly supplies around, everything went by road, and the Taliban knew how to plant mines. every day we went outside the wire, everyday we made contact with the bad guys.... Our government had no business sending us into a combat zone ill prepared, but then again no one cares there is a hockey game on tonight...

When we got home, my wife gave me an a warning this is your last tour or she was leaving, the Army however had other ideas... my PTSD is what saved my marriage, and most likely my life.. sad really, as PTSD has killed hundreds of vets.. Getting help was a long drawn out process, they would make your first appointment , they would give you an assessment, and then farm out the actually mental health treatment some times it would take more than a year would go by before you started treatment... a lot can happen in a year, those that could not wait, took another route and took their own lives. the media did story after story on how many vets were taking their lives, well above any other career in Canada. .. i would go to more than dozens of ramp ceremonies to say good bye to some friend or comrade, and dozens  funerals, until i could not take going to any more...these were good Canadians , good men and women reduced to nothing more than a name and service number and some pictures of them in happier times...

I've watched vets have to prove every year, that limbs did not some how grow back in order to qualify for medical benefits every year for dozens of years, these are medical professionals that wanted proof .. some of these cases made national news, Federal governments decided it was cheaper to fight these cases in court, but unless you had a lawyer doing pro bono work you could not compete the feds bank... , and for some that was the final straw, and they exited stage right ending it all...anyway  I'll end my rant, nothing is going to change anyways.. 

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

my only conclusion poor moral values, they don't care about all the scandals, or trips to the ethics commission, all the deceit, lies, lack of character in the PM,

Jeez, I hear plenty of scandal when *any* party has been in power - remember Mulroney & Airbus?  To think it's only Liberals/liberals who support stupid stuff or do questionable things is naïve in the extreme.

Sorry,  but when  you start off by accusing about half of the people of Canada of being immoral, I have no patience for you.   

[Nefarious Banana]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Sorry,  but when  you start off by accusing about half of the people of Canada of being immoral, I have no patience for you.   

How about 'politically lazy' . . . . or 'easily bought' ?

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

How about 'politically lazy' . . . . or 'easily bought' ?

The truly politically lazy are people who simply accuse the entire other side of all kinds of evil thoughts and deeds.

[blackbird]

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

If that is true then judging by Justins accomplishments todate Canadians do not have the moral values they once had , in fact they are very indifferent to lies, the cheating, unethical behavior, they don't expect much out of our leadership in this nation, it says a lot about Canadians, none of it very flattering .     

Yes and Trudeau was going to give 900 million dollars of taxpayer money to WE charities.  The Fifth Estate on CBC last night raised a lot of questions about where donated money went.  Fortunately the Liberals changed their mind when the opposition got involved and started asking a lot of questions in Parliament.

[PIK]

48 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The truly politically lazy are people who simply accuse the entire other side of all kinds of evil thoughts and deeds.

They are the ones that vote for the most incompetent, corrupted and hateful PM we ever had. Its all about him, and i wouldn't doubt that many libs want him gone also.

Edited November 20, 2021 by PIK