Authoritarian scale

[myata]

On the scale from:

"Any authority must be at all times responsible and accountable to the citizens, has to follow due process, be subject to checks, oversight and recourse, explain, justify and defend its actions whenever they impact rights and interests of the citizens" (zero authoritarianism)

to:

"The authority or a ruler always knows best and don't need, at least in some cases and situations, explain or justify its decisions" (formal or de facto authoritarianism)

where does Canadian society stand? Specifically on this scale rather than in general, is it closer to Europe, or China?

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by myata

[Queenmandy85]

There is a difference between authoritarian and autocratic. An authoritarian says "Do it this way because that is how the book says it should be done". The autocrat says "do it this way because I say so." If you have an autocrat who really knows what she is doing, it is great. Otherwise it is a disaster. Authoritarians are often mediocre at best.

Currently, Canada is low on both scales. The government is fairly sensitive to public opinion.

We are handicapped by the reluctance of really good people to go into politics and endure the vicious attacks becoming almost normal. You only have to listen to the stories from Rona Ambrose or Lisa Raitt about the abuse they and many other MP's were subjected to.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Queenmandy85
Punctuation error

[Yzermandius19]

10 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Currently, Canada is low on both scales. The government is fairly sensitive to public opinion.

you say that as if it's impossible for the public to support authoritarianism or autocracy

currently, public opinion supports both in Canada, it is high on both scales

Edited November 3, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Queenmandy85]

I don't see that, but regardless, there is no one in a leadership role in this country that inspires a lot of confidence. Gravitas seems to be the enemy of politics.

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

you say that as if it's impossible for the public to support authoritarianism or autocracy

currently, public opinion supports both in Canada, it is high on both scales

You're thinking of the States, I believe.

[Michael Hardner]

12 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

 We are handicapped by the reluctance of really good people to go into politics and endure the vicious attacks becoming almost normal. You only have to listen to the stories from Rona Ambrose or Lisa Raitt about the abuse they and many other MP's were subjected to.

I think part of this is to start talking about our MPs as human beings and not part of some bullshit global cabal.  Canada, being small, should take advantage of its smallness and re-personalize these relationships.

[myata]

Who and how can determine whether decisions are justified and supported by reasonable arguments; or arbitrary and voluntaritstic "because I say so"? That is only possible if there is independent analysis and review of decisions; if authority can be called to explain and provide meaningful answers; and moreover oversight and recourse to identify and discard wrong decisions. So simple logic dictates that without independent oversight in any form, it's either of the two autho-types but not a responsible democratic government so the score on the democratic scale cannot be high. Once China gets a mechanism of independent review and call off of wrong, unjustified, disproportionate and so on decisions it'll have a high democracy score too.

Sure let's think and talk of human beings and should it also include compensations like those of regular human beings in the country, from $15K part time minimal wage to 33K median single income?

[Yzermandius19]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

You're thinking of the States, I believe.

America has less of both

but it's not getting any freer

that's for sure

[Zeitgeist]

14 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I think part of this is to start talking about our MPs as human beings and not part of some bullshit global cabal.  Canada, being small, should take advantage of its smallness and re-personalize these relationships.

Our politicians are so afraid of saying anything that might offend or play badly on social media that they are mere ciphers.  None of them will say the statements that most Canadians know are true, that the media coverage of child burial cites at former Residential School misconstrues them as mass murder burial sites when they are very likely TB, Spanish Flu, or other causes of death. None of them will admit that our carbon taxes will do hardly anything to prevent climate change though they do drive up the cost of living in a very impactful way.  None of them is going to question the level of cultural conflict or carbon footprint of high immigration levels.  These types of topics are simply outside of the public political discussion,  even though all three have huge impacts on social cohesion, a sense of pride and self-efficacy, the environment, and standard of living.

Our politicians are too scared to have honest discussions about the issues that matter.  In fact, rather than make hard decisions, the current approach is to borrow more money and throw it at problems, even when they aren’t the real problems.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[cougar]

On 11/1/2021 at 5:43 AM, myata said:

"The authority or a ruler always knows best and don't need, at least in some cases and situations, explain or justify its decisions" (formal or de facto authoritarianism)

where does Canadian society stand? Specifically on this scale rather than in general, is it closer to Europe, or China?

 

Imagine the majority are dumb or brainwashed.  What will happen when you listen to the voice of the majority and do what they say?

Then , as is often the case, a ruler rules for themselves and not for the good of people.

So how will you ever know what is best for you?

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Our politicians are so afraid of saying anything that might offend or play badly on social media that they are mere ciphers.  None of them will say the statements that most Canadians know are true, that the media coverage of child burial cites at former Residential School misconstrues them as mass murder burial sites when they are very likely TB, Spanish Flu, or other causes of death.

The American politicians tend to be older than 'ours' but even ours were raised in the era of the 'television man', the image staked out by JFK in 1960.  Trump has shown that a more 'real' candidate speaks to people, although it takes skillful navigation to navigate in that image.

7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

None of them is going to question the level of cultural conflict or carbon footprint of high immigration levels.  These types of topics are simply outside of the public political discussion,  even though all three have huge impacts on social cohesion, a sense of pride and self-efficacy, the environment, and standard of living.

Well, you are now drifting into the area of substance instead of style and I disagree with your assessment that these things are somehow being handled against what 'the people' want.  I suspect you may not live in Toronto ?

I'll leave the subject to style only since I agree with the gist of your post there.

7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Our politicians are too scared to have honest discussions about the issues that matter.  In fact, rather than make hard decisions, the current approach is to borrow more money and throw it at problems, even when they aren’t the real problems.

If you don't think putting a Carbon Tax in is making a 'hard decision' then you are contradicting yourself.  Do you want someone who make hard decisions or does what the people want ?  Pick a side.

The borrowing of money is 100% a Covid thing.  My assessment is our problems are: political unity, the environment, the economy.  While the current government is making policy on these fronts, and I think O'Toole would do many of the same things as Trudeau, neither of them have a bold vision for reform I grant you that.

[myata]

41 minutes ago, cougar said:

Then , as is often the case, a ruler rules for themselves and not for the good of people.

So how will you ever know what is best for you?

No, there's no magical cure. It's known very well since the times of the Roman republic.

[Zeitgeist]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

The American politicians tend to be older than 'ours' but even ours were raised in the era of the 'television man', the image staked out by JFK in 1960.  Trump has shown that a more 'real' candidate speaks to people, although it takes skillful navigation to navigate in that image.

Well, you are now drifting into the area of substance instead of style and I disagree with your assessment that these things are somehow being handled against what 'the people' want.  I suspect you may not live in Toronto ?

I'll leave the subject to style only since I agree with the gist of your post there.

If you don't think putting a Carbon Tax in is making a 'hard decision' then you are contradicting yourself.  Do you want someone who make hard decisions or does what the people want ?  Pick a side.

The borrowing of money is 100% a Covid thing.  My assessment is our problems are: political unity, the environment, the economy.  While the current government is making policy on these fronts, and I think O'Toole would do many of the same things as Trudeau, neither of them have a bold vision for reform I grant you that.

I think that carbon taxes are unnecessary pain and suffering with little upside.  It’s a policy built on the backs of working people who in most cases have little choice but to drive to work.  It’s like the “Drive Clean” program that got scrapped thankfully.  Canada is a huge country in which people often have to travel great distances for good reasons.  Scrap the crippling carbon tax.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think that carbon taxes are unnecessary pain and suffering with little upside.  It’s a policy built on the backs of working people who in most cases have little choice but to drive to work.  It’s like the “Drive Clean” program that got scrapped thankfully.  Canada is a huge country in which people often have to travel great distances for good reasons.  Scrap the crippling carbon tax.

 

Sin taxes, as well. Unless the government IS the Mafia.

I know they'd like to be...

"We control gambling, liquor, drugs, the numbers racket and prostitution. What else is there??"

[Michael Hardner]

27 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think that carbon taxes are unnecessary pain and suffering with little upside.  It’s a policy built on the backs of working people who in most cases have little choice but to drive to work.

Well, it's proposed to be revenue-neutral and from what I can see has been so far.  And all the parties propose similar plans to combat climate change, so...

27 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Scrap the crippling carbon tax.

We communte to work and groceries and the payback more than paid for the increase.

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well, it's proposed to be revenue-neutral and from what I can see has been so far.  And all the parties propose similar plans to combat climate change, so...

We communte to work and groceries and the payback more than paid for the increase.

What payback?  That revenue neutral promise has quietly diminished in my region.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

What payback?  That revenue neutral promise has quietly diminished in my region.

How much did you get back ?

[Zeitgeist]

32 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

How much did you get back ?

I can’t remember exactly, but it wasn’t the hundreds of dollars I spent on the Trudeau Climate Show Extortion Tax.

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I can’t remember exactly, but it wasn’t the hundreds of dollars I spent on the Trudeau Climate Show Extortion Tax.

It wasn't ?  We got $1000 or so which buys a lot of 5 cents per litre.

[Zeitgeist]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

It wasn't ?  We got $1000 or so which buys a lot of 5 cents per litre.

On the tax form there are different exemptions depending on where you live.  My region in the GTA doesn’t draw the same level of payback.  Typical central planning skewing of markets.  

[Michael Hardner]

25 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

On the tax form there are different exemptions depending on where you live.  My region in the GTA doesn’t draw the same level of payback.  Typical central planning skewing of markets.  

Well you have to look up the exact amount.  We have two taxpayers in our household, also GTA.  You can look it up online with CRA.   My tax benefit could pay for 20,000 litres of carbon taxed gasoline.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well you have to look up the exact amount.  We have two taxpayers in our household, also GTA.  You can look it up online with CRA.   My tax benefit could pay for 20,000 litres of carbon taxed gasoline.

I don’t believe you.  At $1.40 a litre, you’re saying you received $28,000?   Even if you only mean that you received back the 11 cents a litre in carbon taxes back on 20,000 litres, that would be $3080.  This is the problem: Most people are too exhausted or ignorant or simply can’t be bothered to check their annual mileage and gas consumption, and then compare their level of carbon taxation to the rebate they receive in their tax returns. This is how the Liberals and other parties have fleeced taxpayers over the decades.

Of course much of the tax revenue will end up in a slush fund.  The renewables that these funds are supposed to buy won’t generate much power, will require heavy subsidies, and will draw huge amounts of fossil fuel energy production to offset the times when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing.  I say that as the owner of a $33,000 solar system that earns $1200 a year at a subsidized kilowatt hourly rate that’s above market value (and paid for by taxpayers).

“Green power” is mostly an overpriced, underproducing scam.  Yes certain energy production is greener than others.  Hydro and nuclear are better sources than coal and gas.  The over-priced electric vehicles we’re supposed to buy will require massive electricity production and environmental catastrophe in the production of lithium batteries using rare earth materials. Believe me, I’ve done my research and put my money where my mouth is.

Trudeau’s climate policies are unscientific, expensive, and quite ineffective.  By paying more for fuel you can buy into the lie that you’re making sacrifices for the greater good. It’s the poor who are going to get screwed the most, as the Rosedale elites take the local subway to work and leave their Teslas at home.

Don’t worry though, Covid has provided the perfect excuse to keep people at home.  Travel is too expensive with the testing requirements.  Working at the office is exhausting and depressing with the mandatory masking and visors, including for vaccinated workers.  I won’t mention the restrictions on social activities.  You can work from home, look at pictures of Tahiti online, and tell yourself you’re  protecting the environment and your mother who is dying from loneliness in a seniors’ home death camp.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[WestCanMan]

On 11/2/2021 at 5:55 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

Currently, Canada is low on both scales. The government is fairly sensitive to public opinion.

The government bought the MSM here with taxpayer dollars, so they have a lot of control over public opinion. That's not enough though, so they have to get control over social media as well. 

CTV is brutal. I don't know if they got any of the $600M, or the $61M, and I know that they didn't get any of the $675M, but they're the worst of the worst. My wife insisted on watching some of it last night. They were talking about Que and Ont backing down on vaccine mandates for hospital staff. They went on to talk about how safe and effective vaccines are, and then the lying bozo guest said words to the effect of: "The high vaccination rate of hospital staff shows that they have faith in the vaccines". What it actually shows is how many people will get vaccinated so that they don't lose their jobs, and so that they can go out in public. 

CTV is pure filth, I can't watch those god-damned liars for more than 5 minutes at a time or my skin starts to crawls. 

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t believe you.  At $1.40 a litre, you’re saying you received $28,000?   Even if you only mean that you received back the 11 cents a litre in carbon taxes back on 20,000 litres, that would be $3080.  

I meant the tax portion, based upon the original tax level, which I now get has gone up.

 

I was still covered though.

[Michael Hardner]

Green Energy is getting cheaper and it's definitely coming.