Property affordability

[myata]

11 hours ago, 500channelsurfer said:

keep people healthy, housed adequately and educated, then

Except governments were never able to achieve that sustainably so the question is in order, is it even government's job, or maybe someone else's?

[500channelsurfer]

13 hours ago, myata said:

Except governments were never able to achieve that sustainably so the question is in order, is it even government's job, or maybe someone else's?

I did not want to do this debate, but: Governments do run at least arguably acceptable education and health care systems, and with proper public and political pressure, could do much better. The alternative of more privatized education and health care is proven unpopular and detrimental to the majority of society.

Government housing in most forms is admittedly disastrous; however, proper regulation of real estate and rental markets does reduce homelessness and house-poorness.

Less-than-optimal governance is my point, it is what leads to artificially low interest rates an attempt to compensate, which then leads to overheating of the real estate market, which causes property unaffordability.

[myata]

9 hours ago, 500channelsurfer said:

Governments do run at least arguably acceptable education and health care systems, and with proper public and political pressure, could do much better.

Yes that makes sense. Again though, for any system, machine or natural to do better, it has to have an incentive to do it better. It has to do better to eat, to pamper itself, to pay CEO and PHO salary. And what would be the incentive for huge government bureaucracy to do any better than it did yesterday, last year or a century back? Does it exist, and even purely theoretically, what could it be?

[Nationalist]

Some good posts here. Good points of view. Some of you ain'-a-gonna like mine.

I have been lucky I suppose. I haven't noticed stagnant wages. I started my career at a modest wage, and make 3 times that today...roughly. I also did something years ago that scared the livin' hell outta me, but my wife insisted was an imperative. I bought a couple "investment homes". They've appreciated in value a lot over the years.

My point is...you can complain and...nobody doubts the truth of much of the complaints. It is what it is. I've always been a believer of the adage, 'Ya gits wut ya pays fer'. Time and circumstances change from generation to generation. My Mom and Dad bought their first home in Calgary for $25,000. Their mortgage was low and Dad had a good career. They did fine and we grew up wanting for nothing important. I realized that if I didn't do something about it, my kids would not be able to afford a home for their families. I was going to have to help them. I needed to work my ass off so I could gain more income and invest in properties that I can hand the kids...at a modest retirement fee of course.

'Ya gits wut ya pays fer' people.

You can spend time and effort complaining...or you can figure a new way to build the life you want because...

Time and circumstances change from generation to generation.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Nationalist

[500channelsurfer]

11 hours ago, myata said:

Yes that makes sense. Again though, for any system, machine or natural to do better, it has to have an incentive to do it better. It has to do better to eat, to pamper itself, to pay CEO and PHO salary. And what would be the incentive for huge government bureaucracy to do any better than it did yesterday, last year or a century back? Does it exist, and even purely theoretically, what could it be?

In democracy, if the people realize elected officials are not whipping bureaucracy into effectiveness, said elected officials lose their jobs at next election. If elected officials realize bureaucratic officials preventing doing better, bureaucratic officials should be fired by elected officials. 

In dictatorships and other forms of government, eventual coup d'état or revolution may take place if do better does not occur. It is quite noticeable the rates of coup d'états and revolutions are much higher in dictatorships than democracies.

Even in Soviet Union, failure to do better led to eventual dissolution of Soviet Union.

[myata]

This word "eventually" somewhere in the faraway foggy distance may not ring loud for entitled bureaucrats with salaries, pensions, benefits and other entitlements rolling it on the clock and regardless of... pretty much anything. We humans are great at forgetting about consequences, eventualities and such things.

[Nationalist]

On 1/1/2022 at 8:40 AM, myata said:

This word "eventually" somewhere in the faraway foggy distance may not ring loud for entitled bureaucrats with salaries, pensions, benefits and other entitlements rolling it on the clock and regardless of... pretty much anything. We humans are great at forgetting about consequences, eventualities and such things.

Bureaucracies feed themselves. Recall your history and how Stalin came to power. However, a more privatized version of education would reduce some bureaucratic nonsense. Our external affairs folks are bloated and live like ki is and queens. Do we really need it all? Our healthcare bureaucracy is insanely big. Hack and slash the policy and paper pushers and invest in actual hospital staff.

[Colin Norris]

On 11/11/2021 at 10:43 AM, Faramir said:

I miss Rush by the way.  Sad.

So do I. Like a mouthful of cavities. 

[Apertuta]

I have to pay taxes, and if you don't know the law very well, you can pay property taxes that will eat you alive.

[Nationalist]

About 21 years ago, my wife and I bought our first house in Toronto. At the time, I thought we'd paid too much for what we got. But it was all we could afford at the time. Over the next 10 years, we watched house prices begin to sore. So...we bought 2 more houses with our equity. We have 3 kids and each will get a home with a relatively small mortgage.

I plan to use my...now really healthy equity position...to buy 1 more place. A retirement home for my wife and I. Something on water, with some land to grow veggies, maybe keep some chickens and rabbits. A place our kids can bring our future grandchildren to learn to swim and just...get away from it all.

We saw this coming...or better yet...my WIFE saw this coming, and so we prepared ourselves and provided for our kids.

I don't take vacations. I don't buy expensive cars. I live well below my means because...I would hate myself were I not to pass a reasonable life on to my own spawn. So if you're in your late 50's and in here complaining that housing is too expensive and people just can't afford to buy a home anymore...you missed the boat.

But hey...I suspect you have a lot of pictures from your expensive holidays and drive a nice new car, eh?

At least there's that...

Edited June 7, 2022 by Nationalist

[Michael Hardner]

59 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

 I live well below my means because... 

Your story is common - and a response to those who ask "Why does the government allow home prices to soar ?"

People need to understand, though, that it's still a risk and when the crash happens some entrepreneurs will be destitute.

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your story is common - and a response to those who ask "Why does the government allow home prices to soar ?"

People need to understand, though, that it's still a risk and when the crash happens some entrepreneurs will be destitute.

A big risk. Especially now as the currencies are all getting beaten down.

[Apertuta]

I have to pay taxes, and if you don't know the law very well, you can pay property taxes that will eat you alive. When I sold my last house, I collaborated with the property buying company. They helped me with everything, and the most important part is that they taught my partner and me a nice way to reduce the taxes. Everything was legal, don't worry, sometimes we pay enormous taxes because we don't know how to work with them correctly. I believe even 1k makes a huge difference in taxes, and I am extremely pissed that we don't learn these things in school or uni.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Apertuta

[ExFlyer]

22 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your story is common - and a response to those who ask "Why does the government allow home prices to soar ?"

People need to understand, though, that it's still a risk and when the crash happens some entrepreneurs will be destitute.

When people begin to realize it is not government that allows house and property prices to soar, and understand it is the consumer/buyers/clients that are driving prices up, then maybe something will happen.

When prices go up, it seems more and more people want to get into the home ownership market and drive the prices up by bidding higher and higher for the homes.

The government cannot tell you or them not to buy a house. The government also cannot tell the owner of a property to lower the prices or accept less than is being offered.

[Nationalist]

16 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

When people begin to realize it is not government that allows house and property prices to soar, and understand it is the consumer/buyers/clients that are driving prices up, then maybe something will happen.

When prices go up, it seems more and more people want to get into the home ownership market and drive the prices up by bidding higher and higher for the homes.

The government cannot tell you or them not to buy a house. The government also cannot tell the owner of a property to lower the prices or accept less than is being offered.

This is mostly true.

However, one thing the government here did was, they made it easy for the Chinese to invest in our housing market. They come in droves. They will pay anything. They have been a major reason for the housing prices going insane.

[ExFlyer]

8 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

This is mostly true.

However, one thing the government here did was, they made it easy for the Chinese to invest in our housing market. They come in droves. They will pay anything. They have been a major reason for the housing prices going insane.

House and property buying is the same everywhere. It is basically an auction. An auctions sells to the highest bidder. Do you or can you restrict who buyers can be in an open auction?

While I do believe foreign buyers may have driven up prices in the major cities but, housing prices have increased country wide.  I think that if you break it down ( I do not know where to find that breakdown), you will find there are far more local buyers than foreign buyers. I sometimes think foreign buyers are being made a scapegoat.

The government has not made it easier for Chinese to invest in our housing market, the market is open to everyone. Drug cartels could have just as easily bought houses and property (and probably did). Same goes for Americans and any other non Canadians.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

1) understand it is the consumer/buyers/clients that are driving prices up, then maybe something will happen.

2) When prices go up, it seems more and more people want to get into the home ownership market and drive the prices up by bidding higher and higher for the homes. The government cannot tell you or them not to buy a house. The government also cannot tell the owner of a property to lower the prices or accept less than is being offered.

1) So you are saying the market will take care of it ?  There are always big problems with a 'pure' market solution right ?
2) There are a lot of things that the government does and does not do to set the table for markets.  You are missing many of these in your statement here.  Some examples are: taxing, creating laws with regards to rental and sales, encouraging/discouraging the market.  They have a lot of power. 

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

House and property buying is the same everywhere. It is basically an auction. An auctions sells to the highest bidder. Do you or can you restrict who buyers can be in an open auction?

While I do believe foreign buyers may have driven up prices in the major cities but, housing prices have increased country wide.  I think that if you break it down ( I do not know where to find that breakdown), you will find there are far more local buyers than foreign buyers. I sometimes think foreign buyers are being made a scapegoat.

The government has not made it easier for Chinese to invest in our housing market, the market is open to everyone. Drug cartels could have just as easily bought houses and property (and probably did). Same goes for Americans and any other non Canadians.

Like many other nations, we should be restricting foreign land ownership in order to curb the flood of Chinese money driving our prices up so high. I understand even China has imposed new restrictions on money flooding out of their country and we've done nothing.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) So you are saying the market will take care of it ?  There are always big problems with a 'pure' market solution right ?
2) There are a lot of things that the government does and does not do to set the table for markets.  You are missing many of these in your statement here.  Some examples are: taxing, creating laws with regards to rental and sales, encouraging/discouraging the market.  They have a lot of power. 

1. I am saying the market always drove the prices. As can be seen now, a slight interest rate increase and the market and prices have come down. 20% in my area as per the real estate board.

2a. Yes, government can intervene. Which government? Federal, provincial or municipal or all 3?

2b. Taxes? You are going to tax investors? Or just foreign ones that buy homes and make them rentals?  Housing "crisis" has been around for many decades. I remember in  the 70's the government had AHOP, Assisted Home Ownership Program. It failed.  https://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2017/schl-cmhc/NH15-575-1978-eng.pdf

2c. Laws for sales and rentals? What laws for sales? And rent control is what drove investors away from building rentals and for existing landlords from improving their properties as they could not recoup the investments. 

Then I was also a home owner when interest rates were 18 % and, stayed in the house where so many just walked away.

So, I am fairly aware of housing issues over the decades. I was in the ups and downs of it. I had to save for a long time to get a down payment to be able to buy a house.

Interesting read on housing affordability, world wide. Canada is not so bad.  https://globalresidenceindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Canada-housing-report.pdf

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by ExFlyer

[Boges]

On 6/7/2022 at 8:58 AM, Nationalist said:

About 21 years ago, my wife and I bought our first house in Toronto. At the time, I thought we'd paid too much for what we got. But it was all we could afford at the time. Over the next 10 years, we watched house prices begin to sore. So...we bought 2 more houses with our equity. We have 3 kids and each will get a home with a relatively small mortgage.

I plan to use my...now really healthy equity position...to buy 1 more place. A retirement home for my wife and I. Something on water, with some land to grow veggies, maybe keep some chickens and rabbits. A place our kids can bring our future grandchildren to learn to swim and just...get away from it all.

We saw this coming...or better yet...my WIFE saw this coming, and so we prepared ourselves and provided for our kids.

I don't take vacations. I don't buy expensive cars. I live well below my means because...I would hate myself were I not to pass a reasonable life on to my own spawn. So if you're in your late 50's and in here complaining that housing is too expensive and people just can't afford to buy a home anymore...you missed the boat.

But hey...I suspect you have a lot of pictures from your expensive holidays and drive a nice new car, eh?

At least there's that...

It's not the people in their 50's, it's people in their 20's and 30's that have no hope to enter the market. . . without help from mommy and daddy.

Low interest rates and lack of workplace pensions have also led an eroded ability to grow wealth through savings. 

[Michael Hardner]

22 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

1. I am saying the market always drove the prices.  

2a. Yes, government can intervene. Which government? Federal, provincial or municipal or all 3?

2b. Taxes? You are going to tax investors? Or just foreign ones that buy homes and make them rentals? 

2c. Housing "crisis" has been around for many decades.  

2d. Laws for sales and rentals? What laws for sales? And rent control is what drove investors away from building rentals and for existing landlords from improving their properties as they could not recoup the investments. 

3.   I am fairly aware of housing issues over the decades. I was in the ups and downs of it.

4. I had to save for a long time to get a down payment to be able to buy a house.

5. Interesting read on housing affordability, world wide. Canada is not so bad.  https://globalresidenceindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Canada-housing-report.pdf

 

1. Yes but government policy impacts the market.
2a. All 3
2b. We tax investors now - capital gains, dividend etc.
2c. Not like this, no.
2d. Taxation laws.  And we posted vacancy rates through heavy rent control in the 90s in Ontario and they weren't that different.  What was different was rents were more affordable and landlords made less money off the poor.
3.  For sure, and I respect that but you aren't aware of the rental situation in cities.  Governments are very interested in keeping minimum wages down but not concerned about rents spiking - it's very simple.
4. It's worse now
5. I will read it

[ExFlyer]

58 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Yes but government policy impacts the market.
2a. All 3
2b. We tax investors now - capital gains, dividend etc.
2c. Not like this, no.
2d. Taxation laws.  And we posted vacancy rates through heavy rent control in the 90s in Ontario and they weren't that different.  What was different was rents were more affordable and landlords made less money off the poor.
3.  For sure, and I respect that but you aren't aware of the rental situation in cities.  Governments are very interested in keeping minimum wages down but not concerned about rents spiking - it's very simple.
4. It's worse now
5. I will read it

1. What government policy? The big issues for housing development is municipal requirements and red tape.

2a. All 3? What federal and what provincial?

2b. We tax profit made on sales and incomes.

2c. Yes, exactly like this. Perspectives.  I could not afford a house back then either and the government knew this and did AHOP to help folks buy homes. It failed because many (if not most) took the money, lived in the house for a while and then sold the house for profit. Then the crash and peol lost their homes. then interest hikes and no one could afford a home and many again, lost their homes .So yes, housing in general was the issue and difficult.

3. I am very aware of the rental issues in major cities. In my city I have friends and relatives that rent (for one reason or another) and the biggest problem is upkeep. While there  is not "rent control" the landlords cannot increase rents to cover costs because the tenants always (or very often) appeal and the province seems to be in favour of tenants. So, as a result, no one builds rentals and that only makes existing rentals go up in price. On top of that, if a developer wants to build rentals, they are forced to make upwards to 30% of the units low income. You know and I know that a low income unit in a high rise costs as much to build as a regular one therefore to recoup, the regular ones have to be higher rent.

4. No, I do not think so. it is perhaps more difficult in major cities but, that is where people want to live and that alone drives up prices. Popular place cost more.

5. Please do. Thing is housing costs are high all over and for some reason home ownership seems to be almost a right here and it is not and should not be.

 

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, Boges said:

It's not the people in their 50's, it's people in their 20's and 30's that have no hope to enter the market. . . without help from mommy and daddy.

Low interest rates and lack of workplace pensions have also led an eroded ability to grow wealth through savings. 

Gee...I guess that's a great reason or argument for a return to traditional family values. You know...both mommies and daddies taking responsibility for the children they produce.

 

My spawn are all 3 in their 20's. One already lives in one of my rentals with her BF and the chihuahua she bought...and left at my home...She pays me "rent"...which I regularly don't get. But, the poor girl is 'nesting' now and is spending money on the house. So...there's that...I suppose...

The boys? They'll each get the same treatment. They'll pay me, and I'll go golfing.

Immediate gratification. Shouldn't people get their 'ya yas' out by the age of 30-ish? At what point do people really examine and take stock in their lives, and start planning? It happened to me the very moment I held my little girl for the first time. I knew then what I had to do, I just didn't know how yet. I eventually chose a path that worked somewhat.

Today, I sense that most people live for today and themselves. Lots of memories. Pictures. But at the cost of leaving any legacy behind. Isn't that an instinct? Isn't the purpose of being, to create more being? Not necessarily kids, but some thing. Some...something. I hear..."I go parasailing in Mexico every year. Just bought a new Tesla." And I think..."Never parasailed...haven't taken a holiday in years...but I got 5 years to retirement and then, I'm leaving this dirty city and the wife and I are gonna coast. You'll be stuck here working part-time to supplement your pension."

Even in today's reality, there are avenues for long-term profitable investments for the future. Precious metals. Land. Commodities. Building for the future was important, not too long ago. It's...disappearing.

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Nationalist
After-thought.

[Michael Hardner]

20 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. What government policy? The big issues for housing development is municipal requirements and red tape.

2a. All 3? What federal and what provincial?

2b. We tax profit made on sales and incomes.

2c.   I could not afford a house back then either  

3a. the tenants always (or very often) appeal and the province seems to be in favour of tenants.

3b. So, as a result, no one builds rentals and that only makes existing rentals go up in price.

4. No, I do not think so. it is perhaps more difficult in major cities but, that is where people want to live and that alone drives up prices. Popular place cost more.

 

 

1. Lots of them: immigration, taxation, rental laws, development and urban planning.
2a. Ontario, Toronto and Canada for example.
2c. My wife and I are in the top 10 or 20% of incomes and together we could barely afford a starter.
3a. Very debatable.  I went to the tribunal once because the landlord hired himself to do work, paid himself over market rates, and increased rent to cover it.  One experience but, you know.
3b. Condos and homes are rented out so this point doesn't apply really.
4 Would you accept data to convince you otherwise ? Before searching let's agree on some objective parameters.
 

[Michael Hardner]

57 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

 1. Please do. 

I read it and while I do like how it's laid out there are major problems: it's out of date, and I don't know who commissioned it or why.  There's no mention of REITs either, which I am confused by. 

Let's talk about rental costs next.