Property affordability

[Faramir]

On 10/20/2021 at 4:37 PM, Argus said:

Wages have been stagnant for about 40 years, which not coincidentally is about when they started to jack up the amount of immigration. Wages are controlled by supply and demand, except where you have government unions. With a continuing stream of desperate people coming in eager to work for low wages, employers have no reason to ever raise them. And I include not just immigrants but the temporary foreign workers as well as the 600,000 foreign students are in Canada were allowed to work part time.

As for housing, well you got that 600,000 foreign students looking for cheap housing plus half a million or so of various types of temporary foreign workers also looking for super cheap housing. Then you've got 400,000 new immigrants a year, +tens of thousands of refugee claimants almost none of whom will ever be deported regardless of whether or not their claims are ever heard or ever turned down. That means we need to be building a lot of new housing and were not.

Why aren't we? In large part because the provincial and municipal governments have placed an enormous amount of red tape in front of developers while adding heavy fees, taxes and delays for various types of studies and hearings before they get permission. I read somewhere that the developer buys a parcel of land to build housing on has to wait something between five and 10 years before getting permission. A study by the CD Howe Institute a couple of years ago found that government fees, regulations, and delays add something like an average of $230,000 to the cost of each new housing unit.

On top of that, the various laws and regulations and rent controls which impact the profitability of landlord's means not as many are bothering to get into the business. 

So if you want to do something about the shortage of housing while at the same time raising wages... Cut back on temporary foreign workers, students and immigration.

Just rolling in my soap box.  Indeed, the magic year is 1975.  Remember the 70s?  Mom and pop had a car.  All the teen age kids had a car.  Very little debt.  Lots of savings.  Mom didn't even have to work if she didn't want to.  

From 1975 to now there has been no meaningful wage increase that keeps up with either inflation of consumables or housing.  How many iphones can one eat?

But blame Nixon.  Well, not just Nixon. Blame investment banking who has an incestual relationship with government.  And blame Central Banking.  The USA actually PRINTS MONEY to pay debt.  I'm serious.  They have a fancy name for it. Monetization.  I imagine Canada also finds a way to juice the monetary spigot.  And and heh, if you screw up in central banking and send the entire financial system into cardiac arrest, the federal government will bail you out?  Remember AIG?

[Faramir]

On 10/21/2021 at 6:14 AM, Boges said:

Since Canadians aren't reproducing all that much (because of the high cost and standard of living) then how exactly do you grow the economy, if not through immigration? 

Temporary Foreign workers will do jobs Canadians won't. So do we force these farmers to pay a wage that Canadians will actually accept? Or just let the fruit rot on the ground? 

Foreign Student pay full freight for education, it's a growth industry for University and Colleges. 

These things are not that clear cut. 

That is one stinking pile of crap.  Teenage workers would love to have a chance to do field work.  No more foreign workers.  

[Faramir]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:58 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1. Yes, I learned this from you.  Have you yourself changed your mind on ANY aspect of immigration, though, as I have ?

2. Across the board judgements like this don't work in economics.  So, no, you're incorrect.  People who sell things, for example, benefit from a larger market.  Banks benefit from more borrowers and users.

3. Correct, again.

4. We're building 200-250K homes a year.  We are letting in 300K and several 100K die so ... the housing problem is something else entirely: air bnb, empty homes being flipped are two things I think about

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cmhc-housing-starts-july-1.5681883
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/201126/dq201126b-eng.htm

One thing you are spot on about is the government's abandonment of working people.  But even that is complicated.  Home owners now have a major asset that they can retire with (and only 30% of Canadians have a pension, as I recall)

And the construction, renovation, real estate industry employs a lot of people.

And... lowering wages increases efficiency - which is a good thing - but increases disparity too.

And... a lot of these things have been NDP talking points for awhile too.  Welcome to the conservative NDP

I am guessing you take the pure libertarian position on immigration.  It was that that had me turn my back on Libertarianism (as well as some other nutty ideas they have)

[Faramir]

On 10/25/2021 at 1:30 PM, Shady said:

Exactly.  The proponents of unlimited immigration all the time only look at macro numbers like GDP.  They never examine micro numbers like cost of living, strain on social services, transportation and the environment.  Energy prices, housing prices, etc.

GDP should be abandoned and we should go part to GNP as a measure.  GDP does not in any way measure actual individual wealth.  Recall the US GDP dropped 30% in the USA after COVID shut downs.  Did people REALLY lose 30% of their wealth?  I rather doubt it.

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, Faramir said:

GDP should be abandoned and we should go part to GNP as a measure.  GDP does not in any way measure actual individual wealth.  Recall the US GDP dropped 30% in the USA after COVID shut downs.  Did people REALLY lose 30% of their wealth?  I rather doubt it.

Really we need to look at quality of life too.  Natural disasters raise GDP but are clearly undesirable.  We need to look at average commute times, air and water quality, social cohesion, overcrowding, hospitalization/time off due to stress, mortality rates, purchasing power of average income, cost of living (housing, food, etc.), level of public safety, upward mobility opportunity, etc.  It’s about both what your income buys you and what the general living conditions are like beyond your private property.  

[myata]

There's a thing about GDP though: it looks good on paper. For example, government made favorable climate for foreign billionaires - and look, GDP just shoot up way to go (did it change lives of ordinary citizens?). And in this country that's too complicated why bother? Just take the dough from the debt (that is, from future generations of the taxpayers of course) pay it to yourself and watch GDP grow like in that fairy tale.

[myata]

The political class in this country has figured out that they can get away with anything, any raises to themselves and any miserable results to everybody else as long as there's something that can be promised and someone to point fingers to. There may not be good solutions, unfortunately (and not for them).

[Boges]

On 12/1/2021 at 2:25 PM, medsark said:

Agree with your calculations. Today the property taxes are literally killing people. Especially in the COVID-19 pandemic crisis became really hard to deal with all those taxes.

Cite that Property taxes are the problem. 

It's the value of the home that's the problem. I've owned a few properties and found that the MPAC value don't often line up with what the house can be sold for. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Boges

[myata]

Clearly, shelling out $300, 400 monthly for ever decreasing services (I stopped using most of the municipal services including transit awhile back because prices have gone out of touch with reality, how about $6 for an hour swim) and that edging up and up year on year, percent on percent is not a problem for some of us. This is called detachment from reality.

[Boges]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Clearly, shelling out $300, 400 monthly for ever decreasing services (I stopped using most of the municipal services including transit awhile back because prices have gone out of touch with reality, how about $6 for an hour swim) and that edging up and up year on year, percent on percent is not a problem for some of us. This is called detachment from reality.

Is this forum just an avenue for you to bitch how poor you are? 

You've stopped getting your garbage collected? You've stopped using roads? You've opted out of Fire protection? 

[myata]

27 minutes ago, Boges said:

You've stopped getting your garbage collected? You've stopped using roads? You've opted out of Fire protection? 

No it's called the reality. All of these costs me now almost twice what it was ten or so years back and why it should be so? My income has not doubled. I haven't had anything more or new. Sure some of us have automatic annual raises (out of the public's pocket) but how about the rest of us? Isn't it what these words "equitability", "inclusivity" are about or pompous useless, and self-serving words, with automatic annual raises?

[Michael Hardner]

Quote

Question: You've stopped getting your garbage collected? You've stopped using roads? You've  opted out of Fire protection? 

              Answer: No it's called the reality. 

?  I love the new way of answering questions these days.

Anyway, it's been established that property taxes are higher but are NOT what's making people poor.  It's the high rents/home prices ie. low interest rates.

[Boges]

20 hours ago, myata said:

No it's called the reality. All of these costs me now almost twice what it was ten or so years back and why it should be so? My income has not doubled. I haven't had anything more or new. Sure some of us have automatic annual raises (out of the public's pocket) but how about the rest of us? Isn't it what these words "equitability", "inclusivity" are about or pompous useless, and self-serving words, with automatic annual raises?

To be fair, that's not a problem with the government. Their costs have gone up too.

If Property taxes have doubled, then so has the value of your home. 

And if your income hasn't gone up as much as you'd like it, you can always try to better your financial situation through another job. 

[Boges]

20 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

?  I love the new way of answering questions these days.

Anyway, it's been established that property taxes are higher but are NOT what's making people poor.  It's the high rents/home prices ie. low interest rates.

My property taxes aren't even in the top 5 of bills I care about. 

• Mortgage
• Condo Fees
• Car Loan
• Car/Home Insurance
• Cable/Internet/Mobile
• Day Care
• Utilities, because it's a variable expense. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Boges

[llarisaabramova]

You are right, myata! The taxes are doubled if we compare the last decades, but people have the same salaries and the same level of their life.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

My property taxes aren't even in the top 5 of bills I care about. 

• Mortgage
• Condo Fees
• Car Loan
• Car/Home Insurance
• Cable/Internet/Mobile
• Day Care
• Utilities, because it's a variable expense. 

Mortgage is about 20X the next highest bills for us:

entertainment, heat, hydro, car insurance, home insurance, personal insurance are about the same

Day care is child tax so I don't count that.  

[myata]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

To be fair, that's not a problem with the government.

No sorry, just your word wouldn't cut it. Excessive cost of public services for many in this country is a daily reality. I have private services that barely went up in similar time, literally. No can't just say it and make it true.

[Boges]

41 minutes ago, myata said:

No sorry, just your word wouldn't cut it. Excessive cost of public services for many in this country is a daily reality. I have private services that barely went up in similar time, literally. No can't just say it and make it true.

I can agree with lots of that. Public Servants have it good, even for low skilled jobs. 

BUT property taxes aren't that excessive and are a reflection of a good investment in owning a house. 

Where it sucks is renters who have to cover the landlord's property taxes, mortgage and utilities plus a markup to make renting worthwhile. 

Basement apartments are usually good options when that's a problem because the renter assists the homeowner in such costs. 

[myata]

My problem is not with paying a reasonable price for a reasonable service. But when there's no market and the monopolistic provider, private or public comes to you every so many months, too bad now you have to pay me more for the same, exact service. Year on year, percent on percent and in ten years, almost doubled.

For what? Do we have better schools? Better fire service? Better police? Better hospitals, than ten years ago?

Transit, municipal taxes, municipal services, pool, license sticker, anything please find one exception.

Edited December 7, 2021 by myata

[Boges]

22 hours ago, myata said:

My problem is not with paying a reasonable price for a reasonable service. But when there's no market and the monopolistic provider, private or public comes to you every so many months, too bad now you have to pay me more for the same, exact service. Year on year, percent on percent and in ten years, almost doubled.

For what? Do we have better schools? Better fire service? Better police? Better hospitals, than ten years ago?

Transit, municipal taxes, municipal services, pool, license sticker, anything please find one exception.

It's called inflation. 

[Zeitgeist]

On 12/8/2021 at 3:53 PM, Boges said:

It's called inflation. 

Caused by excessive government spending, carbon taxes, excessively high levels of immigration to the major cities, blind bidding on home purchase offers, and the high costs to businesses of trying to keep employees through harsh vaccine mandates and restrictions that drive up labour costs.  These are extremely inflationary government policies.

Just removing the 11 cent per litre carbon tax on fuel (set to rise again soon) would provide some immediate relief on food and transportation costs.

Focusing on treatment and personal responsibility to fight the virus rather than maintaining restrictions and vaccine mandates would immediately reduce the labour shortage and inflation of wages.  It means no longer treating Covid as some exceptional disease requiring tracking and tracing, but rather managing its impact as we manage the flu.   Our high vaccination rate and the new milder variant that will likely become the dominant variant have helped make normalizing Covid possible.

Blind bidding on home purchase offers should be immediately outlawed, so that prospective home buyers know exactly how much money other buyers are offering. People are put in the stressful position of offering far more than a home is worth just to get their offer accepted.  These conditions favour the rich and reckless. It’s ending the possibility of home ownership for young families.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[myata]

On 12/8/2021 at 3:53 PM, Boges said:

It's called inflation. 

Yeah it's sooo like our democratic (choo-choo) government to come with a single-word stamp explanations. Then running around wondering why trust is lost and populism on the rise. Like there's no connection. Like so naive.

Edited December 10, 2021 by myata

[llarisaabramova]

On 12/7/2021 at 8:36 PM, llarisaabramova said:

You are right, myata! The taxes are doubled if we compare the last decades, but people have the same salaries and the same level of their life.

Municipals never give an F about the society, and they are too busy raising their earnings. It took me a long time to shorten my house tax. After approaching the right Mortgage Broker Bristol, I solved this problem with the municipal locals because these guys increased my property taxes every six months literally for no reason. Don't let these sharks earn your blood earned money with the stupid taxes.

Edited December 15, 2021 by llarisaabramova

[myata]

Political class in the country has their compensations indexed at least to the level of inflation if not higher. That triggers two obvious questions: 1) how would they know and understand the problems that ordinary people face? and 2) how do they pay their ever-rising compensations, from where, what source?

[500channelsurfer]

Keeping interest rates too low for too long, and now at near-zero for over ten years, has caused a massive drive in available funds into real estate, which continues to inflate property prices. 

The reason for these low interest rates is simply an attempt to offset government policy failings. Everything posted above from inability to get lower-cost rental housing constructed to adequate levels, to inability to appropriately regulate finances to prevent financial meltdowns such as the 2008 one.

If all government levels would simply do their jobs and keep people healthy, housed adequately and educated, then there would be less drain on the economy by unhealthy, under-educated, and inadequately housed people, and instead more workers available and working more productively, and competition by employers for workers instead of the other way around.

Edited January 1, 2022 by 500channelsurfer