Returning to normal

[Boges]

4 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

The ratio of vaccinated to unvaccinated hasn't changed much since you and the Ontario-yos were blustering about what they said was "95%" unvaccinated and a "Pandemic of the Unvaccinated." Yet the stat changed. The change would most likely continue if the wave continued but these variant waves diminish over time. I see that's happening in Ontario. But not to worry they say there's some sort of Delta 2 on the way.

We need to approach a mindset where through natural infection and vaccination, a COVID infection is "No Big Deal" to most people. 

The only way we know if that's happened is through Hospitalization numbers if ICU capacity stays low. 

We'll have to see if this UK Delta 2.0 breaks increases hospitalization. 

Quote

And yeah, Colin Powell - there's another example of a variant stat you don't see in the first couple weeks of a variant wave. I'm surprised you brought that up, but thanks.

It's a catch 22 in debating. It's likely the vaxxed that are getting sick have underlying conditions. But many in the anti-vaxxed community contend that anyone without underlying conditions and is of good health can usually deal with COVID (with or without a vaccine)

Largely that may be true, but healthcare systems can't usually cope with even a small fraction of people getting deathly ill from a communicable disease. Which is why we keep seeing places reach a crisis level. Alberta and Saskatchewan being the current example. 

[Boges]

6 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

No. The "excuse" is the overcrowding never really shows itself to be the crisis they predicted. Overcrowding happens from time to time even without covid and ways of dealing with it are in place. All those places you're currently pulling your hair out about will do just fine.

By what metric? 

Having to cancel elective surgeries and being forced into Triage protocol seems pretty bad, even if it's only temporary. 

Ontario is taking in several deathly ill patients from Saskatchewan. Is that normal? 

[myata]

Just now, Boges said:

Which is why we keep seeing places reach a crisis level. Alberta and Saskatchewan being the current example. 

Or you see this in substandard, over stressed even before the arrival of the epidemics healthcare systems. There's no overcrowding in Norway and Finland. No crying and waving hands, just good quality system worthy of the self-respecting citizens and solid, professional work.

And if you don't have a quality high standard system and competent professionals? Then what's left? Crying, waving hands, and warning of the next catastrophe?

[myata]

Ineptitude, gross overspending, laziness and incompetence are neither justification nor excuse for imposing general restrictions and keeping them indefinitely. No, it's only ineptitude and substandard system and incompetence. Enough of it. Stop repeating it over and over. It makes no sense and does not explain or prove anything.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, myata said:

Or you see this in substandard, over stressed even before the arrival of the epidemics healthcare systems. There's no overcrowding in Norway and Finland. No crying and waving hands, just good quality system worthy of the self-respecting citizens and solid, professional work.

And if you don't have a quality high standard system and competent professionals? Then what's left? Crying, waving hands, and warning of the next catastrophe?

COVID healthcare crisis are/have happened globally. 

I'm sure you'll be eager to pay the taxes in Scandinavia, considering you're not thrilled with your property taxes. 

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

Ineptitude, gross overspending, laziness and incompetence are neither justification nor excuse for imposing general restrictions and keeping them indefinitely. No, it's only ineptitude and substandard system and incompetence. Enough of it. Stop repeating it over and over. It makes no sense and does not explain or prove anything.

Laziness?!?!?!!? From Healthcare professionals? 

What a POS thing to say. 

 

[Infidel Dog]

6 minutes ago, Boges said:

It's a catch 22 in debating. It's likely the vaxxed that are getting sick have underlying conditions. But many in the anti-vaxxed community contend that anyone without underlying conditions and is of good health can usually deal with COVID (with or without a vaccine)

Largely that may be true, but healthcare systems can't usually cope with even a small fraction of people getting deathly ill from a communicable disease. Which is why we keep seeing places reach a crisis level. Alberta and Saskatchewan being the current example. 

I think what happens with people like Powell who can get a doctor to look at him when he first registers positive is the Doctor tells him it's OK because he's vaccinated and the vax will save him. Might be happening in homes for the elderly too.

An unvaccinated guy off the street will be at least kept overnight for observation and that can be a disaster waiting to happen. Bad things happen in hospitals. Then there are the ones that come into the hospital with something and discover they're also covid positive. I don't trust hospital bureaucrats with those stats. They have something they want to prove and it's so easy to just list the patient's presence in the ICU or death as one thing or the other.

[myata]

It's not the amount of taxes but what they are paying for. And that we can see, thankfully. And as any intelligent beings make our conclusions and choices.

[Aristides]

43 minutes ago, Faramir said:

COVID 19 turned out to not be the great scare we were told it was 2 years ago.  1% of the population did NOT succumb and die from it.  Hospitals were not overwhelmed.  In general around the world less than one 10th of 1 percent have died from it.

Around 2% of the people who got it have died from it.

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, myata said:

It's not the amount of taxes but what they are paying for. And that we can see, thankfully. And as any intelligent beings make our conclusions and choices.

The great majority of people are.

[Aristides]

3 minutes ago, Boges said:

Laziness?!?!?!!? From Healthcare professionals? 

What a POS thing to say. 

 

myata thinks everyone in public services is either incompetent, inefficient or crooked. That way he gets to ignore them all and do what he wants.

[myata]

1 minute ago, Aristides said:

Around 2% of the people who got it have died from it.

Note naive (or could be deliberate) confusion here. In the UK one of the highest infection levels in the developed world, one in 60 tested positive for Covid. And of the fatalities, over 90% were in the over 70 or preexisting conditions group.

[Infidel Dog]

8 minutes ago, Boges said:

By what metric? 

By the metric that it keeps happening. Remember all the cries and bleating during the first wave? Look back at them now and try to justify them with figures.

I suppose you could point to a place like New York state but Cuomo was stuffing the covid infected into retirement homes even though he had a freaking hospital boat ready to take hundreds on in the harbor if he'd wanted to use it. He didn't because he thought it might make Trump look good.

[Aristides]

Just now, myata said:

Note naive (or could be deliberate) confusion here. In the UK one of the highest infection levels in the developed world, one in 60 tested positive for Covid. And of the fatalities, over 90% were in the over 70 or preexisting conditions group.

Going by Johns Hopkins which monitors numbers from all countries. We know you think anyone over 60 has lived too long already and doesn't matter.

[myata]

14 minutes ago, Aristides said:

That way he gets to ignore them all

You only need to show it, something that exists in this reality not only heroic imagination. A modern high standard health care system. With sufficient resources operated by competent professionals. With competent and effective management. Where is it, in what alternate "travel from Wuhan" reality?

Aiiii the sky is falling!! Oiiiii new wave is coming!!!

Edited October 20, 2021 by myata

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Infidel Dog said:

By the metric that it keeps happening. Remember all the cries and bleating during the first wave? Look back at them now and try to justify them with figures.

I suppose you could point to a place like New York state but Cuomo was stuffing the covid infected into retirement homes even though he had a freaking hospital boat ready to take hundreds on in the harbor if he'd wanted to use it. He didn't because he thought it might make Trump look good.

Now we're playing hindsight. 

The first wave's reactions were largely proactive. "Don't see Granny, you could kill her."

Do you see what's happening in New York and Italy?!?!?! Can't happen here. LOCKDOWN!!! Testing and cases could never justify the numbers, but medical professionals also didn't know how to treat it. 

The pandemic has evolved multiple times since then. 

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

I get it; you are backpedaling.  

No, just that your tiresome nagging is so very... dull.

 

[Infidel Dog]

1 minute ago, Aristides said:

Going by Johns Hopkins which monitors numbers from all countries.

Seeing as we're currently so worried about Alberta I checked out their flu stats.

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/37a9f967-13d1-4db5-a5b5-6c8e527fa069/resource/a0a976de-a035-44ec-b405-024071ca751e/download/hta-2015-06-02-influenza-mortality.pdf

1999-2000 was a bad year. The fatality rate was 2.5%.

So you're saying the international stats for Covid fatality rate are almost as bad as a bad flu season in Alberta.

Yeah, OK...and? 

Pay close attention. Fatality Rate is the rate of fatality within cases not mortality rate that looks at total population.

[Infidel Dog]

18 minutes ago, Boges said:

Now we're playing hindsight. 

The first wave's reactions were largely proactive. "Don't see Granny, you could kill her."

Do you see what's happening in New York and Italy?!?!?! Can't happen here. LOCKDOWN!!! Testing and cases could never justify the numbers, but medical professionals also didn't know how to treat it. 

The pandemic has evolved multiple times since then. 

Yeah, we've been seeing it with the Delta wave too. I could show you (and have here) hysterical news reports of crowded hospitals where patients are supposed to be stuffed into the hallways.

Then the skeptic go there with their cellphones sneakily taking video and can't find any evidence of it. Just the odd bored nurse wondering what they're doing there.

But nobody wants to accept that as evidence. Very well, I reject your hysterical news anchors of the corporate or state-run news.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[TreeBeard]

1 minute ago, Infidel Dog said:

Yeah, we've been seeing it with the Delta wave too. I could show you (and have here) hysterical news reports of crowded, patients in hallways, hospitals then people go there with there cellphones sneakily taking video and can't find any evidence of it. Just the odd bored nurse wondering what they're doing there.

But nobody wants to accept that as evidence. Very well, I reject your hysterical news anchors of the corporate or state-run news.

Overloaded hospitals are just a conspiracy?

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

Yeah, we've been seeing it with the Delta wave too. I could show you (and have here) hysterical news reports of crowded hospitals where patients are supposed to be stuffed into the hallways.

Then the skeptic go there with their cellphones sneakily taking video and can't find any evidence of it. Just the odd bored nurse wondering what they're doing there.

But nobody wants to accept that as evidence. Very well, I reject your hysterical news anchors of the corporate or state-run news.

Of course Hospital ICUs are open to the public right? 

[Infidel Dog]

2 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Overloaded hospitals are just a conspiracy?

The crisis is. I've seen the odd patient being held in the hospital hallway though. That was before Covid.

[Infidel Dog]

2 minutes ago, Boges said:

Of course Hospital ICUs are open to the public right? 

I see, so the rest of the hospital can look like a Ghost Town but everybody is in the ICU. Is that it?

[Aristides]

10 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

Seeing as we're currently so worried about Alberta I checked out their flu stats.

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/37a9f967-13d1-4db5-a5b5-6c8e527fa069/resource/a0a976de-a035-44ec-b405-024071ca751e/download/hta-2015-06-02-influenza-mortality.pdf

1999-2000 was a bad year. The fatality rate was 2.5%.

So you're saying the international stats for Covid fatality rate are almost as bad as a bad flu season in Alberta.

Yeah, OK...and? 

Pay close attention. Fatality Rate is the rate of fatality within cases not mortality rate that looks at total population.

If you want to cherry pick, a bad influenza year in the US is 60,000 deaths. Covid killed 10 times that between the spring of 20 and the spring of 21.

[Aristides]

3 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

The crisis is. I've seen the odd patient being held in the hospital hallway though. That was before Covid.

Those aren't covid patients, they are in the ICU's.