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myata

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@Infidel DogI see your 34, and raise you 137.

An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19:

The preponderance of evidence indicates that mask wearing reduces transmissibility per contact by reducing transmission of infected respiratory particles in both laboratory and clinical contexts. Public mask wearing is most effective at reducing spread of the virus when compliance is high.

Only one observational study has directly analyzed the impact of mask use in the community on COVID-19 transmission. The study looked at the reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in Beijing households by face mask use (10). It found that face masks were 79% effective in preventing transmission, if they were used by all household members prior to symptoms occurring. The study did not look at the relative risk of different types of mask.

The remaining study found the use of masks was strongly protective, with a risk reduction of 70% for those that always wore a mask when going out (13), but it did not look at the impact of masks on transmission from the wearer. 

(A study of influenza) found that “in an adjusted analysis of compliant subjects, masks as a group had protective efficacy in excess of 80% against clinical influenza-like illness.” 

(From a study prior to Covid) “homemade masks worn by sick people can reduce virus transmission by mitigating aerosol dispersal. Homemade masks worn by sick people can also reduce transmission through droplets.”

Etc.

The authors reference 137 sources for the information they provide; some of them are more supportive of masks, some less so, but the preponderance of evidence is that masks help prevent the spread of illness, including Covid-19.

The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce ReRe to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained. Economic analysis suggests that mask wearing mandates could add 1 trillion dollars to the US GDP (32, 34)

 

 

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10 hours ago, dialamah said:

@Infidel DogI see your 34, and raise you 137.

An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19:

The preponderance of evidence indicates that mask wearing reduces transmissibility per contact by reducing transmission of infected respiratory particles in both laboratory and clinical contexts. Public mask wearing is most effective at reducing spread of the virus when compliance is high.

Only one observational study has directly analyzed the impact of mask use in the community on COVID-19 transmission. The study looked at the reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in Beijing households by face mask use (10). It found that face masks were 79% effective in preventing transmission, if they were used by all household members prior to symptoms occurring. The study did not look at the relative risk of different types of mask.

The remaining study found the use of masks was strongly protective, with a risk reduction of 70% for those that always wore a mask when going out (13), but it did not look at the impact of masks on transmission from the wearer. 

(A study of influenza) found that “in an adjusted analysis of compliant subjects, masks as a group had protective efficacy in excess of 80% against clinical influenza-like illness.” 

(From a study prior to Covid) “homemade masks worn by sick people can reduce virus transmission by mitigating aerosol dispersal. Homemade masks worn by sick people can also reduce transmission through droplets.”

Etc.

The authors reference 137 sources for the information they provide; some of them are more supportive of masks, some less so, but the preponderance of evidence is that masks help prevent the spread of illness, including Covid-19.

The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce ReRe to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained. Economic analysis suggests that mask wearing mandates could add 1 trillion dollars to the US GDP (32, 34)

 

 

One study... in Beijing ... for two years of studies with only Almighty knows (does she?) how much public billions was... sorry, spent.

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19 hours ago, PIK said:

A- will not sacrifice anything for anyone.

I love how you put it, thanks! One eloquent word to explain them all. But of course, sacrifice is the answer. And do we have inspirational examples here! Think for example about selfless sacrifice of a public hospital CEO resigning to protect spotless image of the public health system (no please, don't mention hallway medicine here) for meager $2M in golden parachute payouts after instructing employees to observe regulations while going on overseas trips.

Or our Chief PH officers (salary $400,000 K with taxable benefits) sacrificing their precious time and efforts what could have been invested with much greater return... where? Or our junior MPs ($200,000 not including allowances, benefits, pensions etc) (senior ones raking multiple of that).

This pretty much concludes a great contemporary display of great official sacrifice for public good and nothing else and thank you for bringing our thoughts and attention to this inspiring matter. And in conclusion, an observation and a short question.

1. If you divide 400,000 by 12,000 (in dollars, that's what a common peasant gets in support for losing his/her job not in the least due to measures) you will get a number. This number gives you certain number of years. Please go ahead and try it - it can be informative and educational, speaking of sacrificial matters.

2. Speaking philosophically, which type of sacrifice would you choose to go on for another year, several years, as long as necessary or indefinitely: the $400,000 sacrifice; or the $12,000 one? Just think about it, no need to answer.

"Entitled to entitlements", obviously. For everybody else, there's sacrifice.

 

Edited by myata
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It's not a fetish. It's not right or wrong. Certainly there are places and situations there masks are useful, and vaccination certainly useful. The problem is when tools and instruments are made into an ideological fetish, a universal panacea. That is dumb, counter productive and harmful as it distracts from finding real, working solutions.

Now, it may be forgivable when coming from common Joe and Jill they want a simple trick to come back to normal quickly and easily. But coming from proclaimed experts and professionals it's deeply wrong. It's a) factually incorrect and misleading b) unprofessional and c) incompetent. And of course, it's a reflection of the quality and competence of public administration in the country. That of course will define its state in the near future. And so on.

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1 hour ago, myata said:

One study... in Beijing ... for two years of studies 

Studies from 1993 to 2020.  You shoulda checked before posting.

1 hour ago, myata said:

with only Almighty knows (does she?) how much public billions was... sorry, spent.

Public money has given us many things -- baby formula, computers, MRIs, cancer research and treatments, the internet, to name just a few.

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42 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Masks would work in a clinical setting properly fitted, no facial hair, good quality material.

In other words not yours.

Wrong again.  Check the research I cited.  It says that the better the mask, the better the protection - but not that anything else is useless.  

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8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Wrong again.  Check the research I cited.  It says that the better the mask, the better the protection - but not that anything else is useless.  

Home made etc, provide such minimal protection as to arguably do nothing.

In a closed environment with prolonged exposure time they would be ineffective, and it is actually dangerous to assume they give adequate protection. If thats what you want to achieve.

I’m saying they are a waste of time. Have said it, since the idea of everyone wearing masks was first suggested.

Now they are a leftover thought that hasnt been corrected. Most people wear them out of concern for others. A symbol, of useless virtue signalling.

 

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6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

 A symbol, of useless virtue signalling.

Let's add here, in place of solutions that could actually have been effective in reducing the spread in the environments of higher risk that were overlooked or never bothered to look in the pursuit of ideological purity.

And that seems to be what we're doing more and more often here: empty words and useless symbols in place of intelligent and effective solutions that work for the society. No, not a substitute not even close and not a chance in a heck.

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46 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Home made etc, provide such minimal protection as to arguably do nothing.

In a closed environment with prolonged exposure time they would be ineffective, and it is actually dangerous to assume they give adequate protection. If thats what you want to achieve.

I’m saying they are a waste of time. Have said it, since the idea of everyone wearing masks was first suggested.

Now they are a leftover thought that hasnt been corrected. Most people wear them out of concern for others. A symbol, of useless virtue signalling.

 

So far, during this pandemic, you've denied the efficacy of mask-wearing, the efficacy of social distancing/restrictions, the efficacy of the vaccine.  Never mind that when social distancing,  mask wearing and restrictions are in place, cases decrease and when those restrictions are lifted, cases increase.  Now that we have a vaccine, you encourage people not to get vaccinated, never mind that the higher the number of people vaccinated, the fewer cases and the fewer serious cases there are.

Hypocritically, during the time pre-vaccine, you espoused concern for old people and shut-ins having no social contact - but at the same time you continue to dismiss any method by which those people could return to normal.  You pretended that addicts, left without social supports, might overdose in record numbers.   But your concern over people who might die of covid if we didn't have masks, restrictions, social distancing and now the vaccine is non-existent. 

You are certainly living up to your screen name.

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6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 and when those restrictions are lifted, cases increase. 

Live and sacrifice for case counting people. With $400K salaries and $M golden parachutes. For as long as necessary aka forever. Forget it. Stick it in all places. There's no chance a crooked dime of mine going to tearful appeals, crumbling services, salaries entitlements and parachutes if it can be helped and universe permitting, try I will.

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2 minutes ago, myata said:

Live and sacrifice for case counting people. With $400K salaries and $M golden parachutes. For as long as necessary aka forever. Forget it. Stick it in all places. There's no chance a crooked dime of mine going to tearful appeals, crumbling services, salaries entitlements and parachutes if it can be helped and universe permitting, try I will.

Does anything happen in your life that you don’t blame on someone else?

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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

when social distancing,  mask wearing and restrictions are in place, cases decrease

Please don't l-word especially when it's so obvious. The all time highs of waves two and three were achieved with masking and all other masterpiece idiocy policies like put it on in the washroom, turn around and clap to scare the virus, firmly in place. And it took shutting everything down, yet again, just in time for the crest of the wave though so it still not known if it did much other than lots of tears on the screens and hands in the air. While there are places that never had to shut it down.

These are facts and they show clearly and unavoidably that despite amounts of self-appointed salaries and benefits these folks are clueless and incompetent about how to achieve results in reality. These are "travel from Wuhan" specialists, four out of five sources of transmission unknown or meaningless one can continue exzperts and no matter the amounts of confidence on TV the results show all there's to know.

Morning. 8 cases reported in a million city. An elderly woman alone, on a sidewalk in a mask. A token of idiotic, pointless and harmful propaganda. I'm really worried what state the country will emerge from the pandemic in, if it ever happens. Maybe it's time to consider options.

Edited by myata
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Or it's just that the results speak for themselves and no hand waving or creative dancing could change that but of course only for those who have eyes, memory and the brain to process information about what is and what happened. No can't make results in the reality with crying, waving hands and such no matter the amount of the entitled salary.

Salary was the easy part and in no way it assures knowledge, professionalism, competence, efficiency and ability to produce results. It's been a while since we forgot that there's a difference.

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2 minutes ago, myata said:

Or it's just that the results speak for themselves and no hand waving or creative dancing could change that but of course only for those who have eyes, memory and the brain to process information about what is and what happened. No can't make results in the reality with crying, waving hands and such no matter the amount of the entitled salary.

No, you use others to avoid personal responsibility for anything.

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Silly confusions, again. I use my own eyes and brain, rather than that of others. And my personal responsibilities are my personal business while someone paid (very generous bordering on obscene) public money is expected to produce results for the society that may include, in normal societies, working competently in a high quality system and not shutting everything down for the sake of the Holy Number or to save a crumbling system. Enjoy responsibility explained, Idiot's Guide.

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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

So far, during this pandemic, you've denied the efficacy of mask-wearing, the efficacy of social distancing/restrictions, the efficacy of the vaccine.  Never mind that when social distancing,  mask wearing and restrictions are in place, cases decrease and when those restrictions are lifted, cases increase.  Now that we have a vaccine, you encourage people not to get vaccinated, never mind that the higher the number of people vaccinated, the fewer cases and the fewer serious cases there are.

Hypocritically, during the time pre-vaccine, you espoused concern for old people and shut-ins having no social contact - but at the same time you continue to dismiss any method by which those people could return to normal.  You pretended that addicts, left without social supports, might overdose in record numbers.   But your concern over people who might die of covid if we didn't have masks, restrictions, social distancing and now the vaccine is non-existent. 

You are certainly living up to your screen name.

I dont need your baseless accusations. You are wrong on every count in your fixation to define me and put me away.

However I have neither the time nor the inclination to educate people like you.

Carry on

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55 minutes ago, myata said:

Please don't l-word especially when it's so obvious. The all time highs of waves two and three were achieved with masking and all other masterpiece idiocy policies like put it on in the washroom, turn around and clap to scare the virus, firmly in place. And it took shutting everything down, yet again, just in time for the crest of the wave though so it still not known if it did much other than lots of tears on the screens and hands in the air. While there are places that never had to shut it down.

These are facts and they show clearly and unavoidably that despite amounts of self-appointed salaries and benefits these folks are clueless and incompetent about how to achieve results in reality. These are "travel from Wuhan" specialists, four out of five sources of transmission unknown or meaningless one can continue exzperts and no matter the amounts of confidence on TV the results show all there's to know.

Morning. 8 cases reported in a million city. An elderly woman alone, on a sidewalk in a mask. A token of idiotic, pointless and harmful propaganda. I'm really worried what state the country will emerge from the pandemic in, if it ever happens. Maybe it's time to consider options.

It’s too bad we cannot untangle cause and effect, and so the idiot leadership uses this chaotic mess of unrefined data to mesmerize the dunderheads.

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4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

It’s too bad we cannot untangle cause and effect, and so the idiot leadership uses this chaotic mess of unrefined data to mesmerize the dunderheads.

With mask mandates the cause is quite clear though. They were introduced in Ontario, at the end of the first wave, in summer 2020. After that, in the fall 2020 and winter 2021 there were two more waves each exceeding previous records in cases and deaths, with mask mandates in place. So do masks reduce cases? Did they? The eye or the ear, Hans?

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4 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Masks would work in a clinical setting properly fitted, no facial hair, good quality material.

In other words not yours.

I think this is part of why so many in medical are rebelling now.  If you've worked in medical (I have) and understand how these things work (or don't work) you understand why masking is having such a negligible effect on spread.

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5 hours ago, myata said:

One study... in Beijing ... for two years of studies with only Almighty knows (does she?) how much public billions was... sorry, spent.

Actually, that one done by the guys that gave us the CCP virus in the first place was the only one PNAS endorsed as "RCT," random controlled. They talked about other studies but those were loaded with excuses for why they might be lame. They relied on guesses, are loaded with confirmation bias in observational studies, are inconclusive flu studies, don't specify types of masks with one exception (Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97%) and so on.

We can make observational studies ourselves and not rely on the confirmation bias of others. There's no real science to it. For example, I ask again, if masks work, why don't they?

 

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