US, UK, Australia in security pact against China. Canada left out

[Zeitgeist]

What's stranger though is how little Canadians seem to care that this is happening.  I'd like to think that this is because they think that such security partnerships are a lot of manipulative useless bluster or don't apply to our context and that there's a bigger picture to which Canada aspires that is better than what's on offer from the UK, US, and Australia, but it might just simply represent decline.  Trudeau is more recognized internationally than the Aussie PM, perhaps more so even than Johnson, but what does he stand for?   

[Yzermandius19]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

What's stranger though is how little Canadians seem to care that this is happening.  I'd like to think that this is because they think that such security partnerships are a lot of manipulative useless bluster or don't apply to our context and that there's a bigger picture to which Canada aspires that is better than what's on offer from the UK, US, and Australia, but it might just simply represent decline.  Trudeau is more recognized internationally than the Aussie PM, perhaps more so even than Johnson, but what does he stand for?   

why would Canadians care?

what good would being in aukus do for Canada?

[ironstone]

This isn't something that would bother the Trudeau Liberals in the least since they are very strongly pro-China.

The Niagara Independent

Trudeau no doubt opposes any kind of pact like this, no surprise there.

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, ironstone said:

This isn't something that would bother the Trudeau Liberals in the least since they are very strongly pro-China.

The Niagara Independent

Trudeau no doubt opposes any kind of pact like this, no surprise there.

That article contains important information that should raise many concerns about Trudeau and the Liberal Party of Canada, yet it will be ignored.  I can’t imagine the Canada of 10 years ago accepting this.  I don’t know why the Conservatives didn’t turn this into a key election issue.  Trying to out-Liberal the Liberals was a huge mistake.  

[Argus]

Here's more, in the context of Trudeau's infatuation with China. While the backroom Liberals have been ensnared by a variety of preferential investment opportunities and now mouth pro China platitudes Trudeau's love affair is based on his own shallow, vapid ignorance. The same kind which made him and his father such fanboys of Castro and Cuba. 

While Harper’s vision was to establish Canada as a “global energy superpower,” which would shift the centre of Canada’s political gravity westward, Trudeau’s was just as straightforward: Beijing’s promise of a win-win relationship would unlock untold riches for Canada’s middle class. The power would not shift westward, but would rather entrench itself in the Liberal party’s bastions within the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto triangle.

Armed with growth forecasts and statistical projections helpfully provided by McKinsey & Company — the global consulting firm whose managing director, Dominic Barton, would go on to play a more public role later in the drama — Trudeau laid out his case in a widely published manifesto within days of declaring his candidacy.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/terry-glavin-4

[Argus]

Canada is soft on China and the US knows it. We're an unreliable ally on almost every front, and not even mildly embarrassed about being freeloaders.

 

“the United States has no closer or more reliable ally than Australia.” - Joe Biden

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/np-view-canada-is-soft-on-china-and-the-u-s-knows-it

[Queenmandy85]

Look at this through the eyes of the person who is paying the freight. Since 1960, the taxpayer has spent over a half trillion (US) dollars on Defence and what have we got to show for it. 

1. Never-ending peace keeping missions in Cyprus and failed peace keeping missions in Egypt and Rawanda.

2. The mission in Afghanistan which cost us dearly and the results of which were tossed away by the Americans.

Two things to clarify: As I have always said, I believe Canada grossly under funds our Defence, and the USA is a wonderful country and the most generous and gracious World power in history. 

In answer to the criticism Canada needs to rely on allies, mother England tends to take us for granted, and the US has tended to renege on treaties recently. The US has a habit of always backing losers. Chiang Kai-shek, Diem, Batista, and Saddam. There have been a few success stories such as the CIA bankrolling Willi Brandt. They also stabbed us in the back in the Suez crisis and to add insult to injury, they got a Canadian to stick the knife in. Pearson.

My point is, to avoid being dragged into another debacle like Afghanistan by our allies, we need an independent military that doesn't need "allies." But, we keep coming back to the question, how many of you are willing to pay 70% of your income towards Defence?

As Professor Dyer once said, "If you can't take a joke, you should not have a Defence budget."

Edited September 26, 2021 by Queenmandy85

[Argus]

China says we need to 'draw lessons' from our recent experiences. In other words, bow lower bitches.

I have ZERO doubt that is precisely the lesson Trudeau and his entire party have drawn and they will do their level best to bow very low indeed from now on whenever China glances our way. They simply lack the courage or mental fortitude to stand up to China, nor even the will. Too many of them are actively working for Beijing as it is.

BEIJING — The release of Huawei Chief Financial Officer Meng Wanzhou shows China’s strength and Canada should “draw lessons,” China’s foreign ministry said on Monday, after state media called it an opportunity for a reboot of bilateral relations.

Meng’s return shows the ability of the Chinese government and ruling Communist Party to protect its citizens, companies, and interests, foreign ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying told a regular daily briefing.

“Canada should draw lessons and act according to its own interests,” she added.

President Xi Jinping personally handed down orders for handling the case, Hua added without elaborating on the orders.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/china-says-canada-must-draw-lessons-from-the-meng-wanzhou-case

[Argus]

22 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Look at this through the eyes of the person who is paying the freight. Since 1960, the taxpayer has spent over a half trillion (US) dollars on Defence and what have we got to show for it. 

How much do you pay for your home insurance? What do you have to show for it?

The military is a complete waste of time, except for when you need it. Then it's priceless. What other large organization do we have to call upon for any kind of emergency? We don't have a National Guard, like they do down south, and are one of the lowest policed countries in the western world. We have no way of coping with civil disorder if it were to start. We have no organization we can use to evacuate people in an emergency, as in an earthquake or flood. None to call in on even a health emergency, as we did recently.

Oh, and there's that sovereignty thing. If you want to claim sovereignty over a large and valuable piece of land you had better be able to enforce that claim or someone else will come and take it away from you.

22 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

My point is, to avoid being dragged into another debacle like Afghanistan by our allies, we need an independent military that doesn't need "allies." But, we keep coming back to the question, how many of you are willing to pay 70% of your income towards Defence?

Does Australia have a 70% income tax rate? Does the Australian government devote so much money to its military it can't afford robust social services? Nope. Two thirds of our size with a better, more modern military. And yet somehow they can manage that and we can't?

[Queenmandy85]

47 minutes ago, Argus said:

Does Australia have a 70% income tax rate? Does the Australian government devote so much money to its military it can't afford robust social services? Nope. Two thirds of our size with a better, more modern military. And yet somehow they can manage that and we can't?

Australia has the advantage, not only being an island, but having no potential adversary within reach. An invasion of Australia would be a logistical nightmare to invade and defies any cost - benefit motivation. I have to ask how much deference a half dozen submarines armed only with conventional weapons, are going to have against China?

Canada is also safe from invasion from all directions except the south. Sending an invasion force across the Pacific, the Arctic or the Atlantic is just not feasible. Only the US is in a position to invade Canada and Canadian voters have determined it is not worth the investment to try to prevent it. They are currently not a threat. It would be better to absorb an American invasion and then bleed them out over the long term. The last time the US was a serious threat was in the 1920's, and briefly in 1965, if memory serves.

All that being said, I am in favour of building a viable military and firming up our traditional alliance with the UK, while maintaining out current alliances. It is just that my views are politically unpopular.

[Queenmandy85]

Don't blame Trudeau for our military profile. He is a reflection of the mood in Canada. When people start banging on the doors of the recruiting office, he will devote more of your money to Defence. Conscription almost tore the country apart in both the Great War and the Second War. Our best alternative to re-building the Canadian Forces is to build up a large nuclear weapons force. Nothing says "F**k off like a cloud of thermo-nuclear warheads coming your way.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Australia has the advantage, not only being an island, but having no potential adversary within reach. An invasion of Australia would be a logistical nightmare to invade and defies any cost - benefit motivation.

Sure. But what about blockading or intercepting their shipping? Being an island makes you vulnerable to that. Especially from submarines.

3 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I have to ask how much deference a half dozen submarines armed only with conventional weapons, are going to have against China?

A half dozen nuke boats and a tighter military relationship with the US and UK would likely deter any action on the part of China.

3 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Canada is also safe from invasion from all directions except the south. Sending an invasion force across the Pacific,

You seem to think invasion is the only possible use of the military. It most definitely is not. Further, the closer Canada works with and is allied to the US the more likely the US is to help us out here and there with regard to other things - like 'buy america' legislation, for example.

 

[Argus]

3 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Don't blame Trudeau for our military profile. He is a reflection of the mood in Canada. 

I do blame Trudeau. He has indefinitely postponed military procurement programs and refused to properly equip the military while prostrating himself before China's dictator.

I'm fairly certain someone like O'Toole would be a lot friendlier to the military.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Argus

[Army Guy]

On 9/26/2021 at 4:19 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

Look at this through the eyes of the person who is paying the freight. Since 1960, the taxpayer has spent over a half trillion (US) dollars on Defence and what have we got to show for it. 

1. Never-ending peace keeping missions in Cyprus and failed peace keeping missions in Egypt and Rawanda.

2. The mission in Afghanistan which cost us dearly and the results of which were tossed away by the Americans.

Two things to clarify: As I have always said, I believe Canada grossly under funds our Defence, and the USA is a wonderful country and the most generous and gracious World power in history. 

In answer to the criticism Canada needs to rely on allies, mother England tends to take us for granted, and the US has tended to renege on treaties recently. The US has a habit of always backing losers. Chiang Kai-shek, Diem, Batista, and Saddam. There have been a few success stories such as the CIA bankrolling Willi Brandt. They also stabbed us in the back in the Suez crisis and to add insult to injury, they got a Canadian to stick the knife in. Pearson.

My point is, to avoid being dragged into another debacle like Afghanistan by our allies, we need an independent military that doesn't need "allies." But, we keep coming back to the question, how many of you are willing to pay 70% of your income towards Defence?

As Professor Dyer once said, "If you can't take a joke, you should not have a Defense budget."

Queen you got some good ideas, but the 70 % is grossly over estimated, we are barely reaching over 1 %... Yes according to the liberals we spend more than that, yes but we take into account things that no other nations do....like vets / civilian pensions,  emergency preparedness, SAR, RCMP drug raids,  fisheries patrols, coast Guard activities. assisting CSIS . They eat into an already small budget. 

Canada has signed onto many defense agreements and has no intention of living up to any of them, not just this government goin g back 40, 50 years... Justin signed on to the agreement of spending 2 % GDP, and then days later said he had no intention of living up to that agreement....He had a chance to make a point before he signed onto it... he could have refused and made a stronger point , forcing Canada to look at it's foreign policies and military commitments, but is has not made it on an election cycle for sometime...and it is not Justins fault, our government do the very minimum to get elected, if it is not popular with Canadians it does not see the light.. We have the military we have today because Canadians want it that way...

 

[Army Guy]

7 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Don't blame Trudeau for our military profile. He is a reflection of the mood in Canada. When people start banging on the doors of the recruiting office, he will devote more of your money to Defence. Conscription almost tore the country apart in both the Great War and the Second War. Our best alternative to re-building the Canadian Forces is to build up a large nuclear weapons force. Nothing says "F**k off like a cloud of thermo-nuclear warheads coming your way.

And within a week all that radiation is blowing across our nation making our children glow like light sticks. Never have a wpn that you don't have the balls to use.... Of all the things to be worried about NBCW was the one that scared me the worse...

[Yzermandius19]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

I do blame Trudeau. He has indefinitely postponed military procurement programs and refused to properly equip the military while prostrating himself before China's dictator.

I'm fairly certain someone like O'Toole would be a lot friendlier to the military.

your certainty is unfounded

even Harper cut military spending

and O'Toole is a bigger cuck than he ever was

Canadians don't like military spending, including the Conservatives

you can't vote your way out of it

culture is destiny

and Canada is simply not a martial nation anymore

Edited September 28, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Queenmandy85]

10 hours ago, Army Guy said:

And within a week all that radiation is blowing across our nation making our children glow like light sticks. Never have a wpn that you don't have the balls to use.... Of all the things to be worried about NBCW was the one that scared me the worse...

President Reagan brought down the Soviet Union by convincing them that he was actually crazy enough to use them. 

Deployment of ERD's (neutron bombs) is one option but mass murder-suicide has a stronger deterrence. President Kennedy convinced Khrushchev that he would rather blow up the world. He knew what he was doing. "The fruits of victory would be ashes in our mouths."

Canada's military might is greater now than any peace time period. Between the wars, we had a clear war plan. The army had spies active in gathering intelligence on the primary adversary but there were only 4500 troops to execute it.

When the RCN went to war against Hitler, we had three ships. The flag ship's main guns were warped, leading the British to signal, "We are here to shoot them, not beat them to death."

I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that nobody is going to win an election on the promise of building up the military and Canadians will punish any politician that cozies up the the Americans. When we actually had a Conservative Party, one of the slogans was "No truck nor trade with the yankees."

 

[Argus]

18 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

your certainty is unfounded

even Harper cut military spending

and O'Toole is a bigger cuck than he ever was

O'Toole was a captain in the Air Force, which makes him less of a cuck than a drama teacher or an economics student. Lest you forget, Harper backed down completely when faced with losing his job as PM, gave in to the opposition, and opened the spending taps wide.

18 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Canadians don't like military spending, including the Conservatives

Simply not true. Conservatives always want more and their platform calls for higher spending. As for Canadians, I don't think military spending has ever placed highly on their lists of either for or against. I would say Quebecers generally have no use for the military, but the rest of Canada is different.

 

[Yzermandius19]

40 minutes ago, Argus said:

O'Toole was a captain in the Air Force, which makes him less of a cuck than a drama teacher or an economics student. Lest you forget, Harper backed down completely when faced with losing his job as PM, gave in to the opposition, and opened the spending taps wide.

Simply not true. Conservatives always want more and their platform calls for higher spending. As for Canadians, I don't think military spending has ever placed highly on their lists of either for or against. I would say Quebecers generally have no use for the military, but the rest of Canada is different.

 

the military went woke long ago

being a Captain in the Air Force doesn't mean he's not a cuck

nor does it make him less of a cuck than Harper

O'Toole would cut military spending too

Edited September 28, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Army Guy]

On 9/28/2021 at 12:22 AM, Yzermandius19 said:

 

Canadians don't like military spending, including the Conservatives

and Canada is simply not a martial nation anymore

Canadians don't even know what DND provides this nation, defund the military would be as stupid as defunding the police. who is going to patrol our coasts, and impose our laws on fishing, our border, controlling shipping traffic, enforcing our drug laws, imposing our sovereignty, control our airspace, provide SAR across the nation, provide RCMP, local police with equipment and services during crises events, who is going to provide security during major events like world leaders get togethers, Olympics, etc. And how are we to remain in our defensive pacts like NORAD, NATO and 5 eyes, and all the rest. who is going to contribute to the UN or NATO peacekeeping missions. Thats is just some of the contributions our military does.. or are you suggesting we just say Screw it, it's a free for all.

And all that money saved by canceling DND budget would just have to be spent on other depts like RCMP, Coast Guard, CSIS, fisheries, etc, so they could have the equipment needed to do the job... Lets not mention it employs 69,000 reg force soldiers another 28,000 part time soldiers, plus 40,000 civilian employees...and that does not include any of the other employment provided to our military industrial complex.... like Irving's ship yard employees, or those companies that do maintence on military aircraft, or vehicles and ships...all hitting the unemployment lines at the same time, and Canada would be doing without those wages going back into the economy... Even the left can see that, 

Canada has always been and always be a martial nation, regardless of all the myths you hear like we are a nation of peace keepers, or we hand out teddy bears during floods or hurricanes.  we have always been there when called upon, and we will never be prepared as history has clearly shown, and we as a nation refuse to acknowledge. This type of thinking has come at a cost of lives, our sons and daughters pay that price...but whats a life worth any ways well a meager widows pensions and burial if you want to ,it will include a metal casket, and dress uniform..

Ask yourself how much are your sons and daughters worth to you, and then ask what should we be paying to keep them safe... * just a little note to the lefties out there , the Liberal government has used our military forces more than any other party since Canada's inception , and has put in the least amount of funding into it...

And when our government decides to use the military again in some conflict our sons and daughters will go fight  in 40 year old planes, ships and tanks because that is what we  Canadians wanted. But hey look on the bright side, the funeral will be paid for, maybe a small group of soldiers will come and offer condolences, The spouse will get a meager widows pension, and that chapter will be closed and some other son and daughter will take their place "wash, rinse repeat. nothing will change... 

[Yzermandius19]

51 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Canadians don't even know what DND provides this nation, defund the military would be as stupid as defunding the police. who is going to patrol our coasts, and impose our laws on fishing, our border, controlling shipping traffic, enforcing our drug laws, imposing our sovereignty, control our airspace, provide SAR across the nation, provide RCMP, local police with equipment and services during crises events, who is going to provide security during major events like world leaders get togethers, Olympics, etc. And how are we to remain in our defensive pacts like NORAD, NATO and 5 eyes, and all the rest. who is going to contribute to the UN or NATO peacekeeping missions. Thats is just some of the contributions our military does.. or are you suggesting we just say Screw it, it's a free for all.

And all that money saved by canceling DND budget would just have to be spent on other depts like RCMP, Coast Guard, CSIS, fisheries, etc, so they could have the equipment needed to do the job... Lets not mention it employs 69,000 reg force soldiers another 28,000 part time soldiers, plus 40,000 civilian employees...and that does not include any of the other employment provided to our military industrial complex.... like Irving's ship yard employees, or those companies that do maintence on military aircraft, or vehicles and ships...all hitting the unemployment lines at the same time, and Canada would be doing without those wages going back into the economy... Even the left can see that, 

Canada has always been and always be a martial nation, regardless of all the myths you hear like we are a nation of peace keepers, or we hand out teddy bears during floods or hurricanes.  we have always been there when called upon, and we will never be prepared as history has clearly shown, and we as a nation refuse to acknowledge. This type of thinking has come at a cost of lives, our sons and daughters pay that price...but whats a life worth any ways well a meager widows pensions and burial if you want to ,it will include a metal casket, and dress uniform..

Ask yourself how much are your sons and daughters worth to you, and then ask what should we be paying to keep them safe... * just a little note to the lefties out there , the Liberal government has used our military forces more than any other party since Canada's inception , and has put in the least amount of funding into it...

And when our government decides to use the military again in some conflict our sons and daughters will go fight  in 40 year old planes, ships and tanks because that is what we  Canadians wanted. But hey look on the bright side, the funeral will be paid for, maybe a small group of soldiers will come and offer condolences, The spouse will get a meager widows pension, and that chapter will be closed and some other son and daughter will take their place "wash, rinse repeat. nothing will change... 

the RCMP can handle the domestic policing, the coast guard can handle guarding the coasts and the shipping traffic, America can police the airspace

Canada does not need a military, just an armed constabulary

it can go Giant Iceland, it has no major threats to it's sovereignty

and even if it did, Canadians are not willing to pay enough to properly defend itself from them

the military adds nothing worth doing that can't be done by some other government agency

Canada has no need to get involved in any of the wars it has gotten into lately, so getting rid of the military will prevent them from continuing to do that

 

who does Canada need to be kept safe from, that our military actually keeps us safe from?

riddle me that

also fck enforcing stupid drug laws

Edited October 5, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Army Guy]

23 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

the RCMP can handle the domestic policing, the coast guard can handle guarding the coasts and the shipping traffic, America can police the airspace

Canada does not need a military, just an armed constabulary

it can go Giant Iceland, it has no major threats to it's sovereignty

and even if it did, Canadians are not willing to pay enough to properly defend itself from them

the military adds nothing worth doing that can't be done by some other government agency

Canada has no need to get involved in any of the wars it has gotten into lately, so getting rid of the military will prevent them from continuing to do that

 

who does Canada need to be kept safe from, that our military actually keeps us safe from?

riddle me that

also fck enforcing stupid drug laws

look I'm not arguing with you any more , your free to have an opinion of your choice, it does not have to be wrong or right, it's yours. 

Like i said Most Canadians do not know what DND does for Canadians 24 hours a day 7 days a week. do some research it might be enlightening. 

[Yzermandius19]

6 hours ago, Army Guy said:

look I'm not arguing with you any more , your free to have an opinion of your choice, it does not have to be wrong or right, it's yours. 

Like i said Most Canadians do not know what DND does for Canadians 24 hours a day 7 days a week. do some research it might be enlightening. 

your assumption that only ignorance could lead to my conclusions is not reality

though you are correct about most Canadians knowledge level being very low

the research I have done is quite enlightening

it simply leads me to different conclusions than your own