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US, UK, Australia in security pact against China. Canada left out


Argus

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Isn't it obvious? Evolution gives us only two choices: adapt and do what's necessary to survive the next age; or go extinct. We want to pretend that there's another way, smile and chat away serious problems but what if it's only an illusion? If a "partner" comes to your shores with aircraft carriers and you have none, and your air fleet is sixty years old and nobody to run to, sure diplomacy can help you write the terms of surrender.

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10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

As long as we remain dependent on the US as our main export market, China for cheap imports, and rely on the US for military protection, we remain vulnerable to tariffs and manipulation, and our sovereignty is compromised. Biden is a two-faced double dealer, as we see in his security deal with Australia, which has screwed over France, a supposed close ally of the US, and has left Canada out of the loop.  Biden’s US has extended the land border closure to Canadians.   I’m not going to try to explain this away with weak arguments about a Delta variant or not wanting to offend Mexico.  The US could safely allow vaccinated tourists to enter the US today.

 

 

What does sovereignty mean in Canada, is it the lines drawn on a map ?, is it mean having the ability to use and live on everything in those lines and defend or protect it ? We has a nation have 3 undermanned and under equipped Army brigade groups, that for the most part look after inter national ops and a few domestic ops... The government has given the Reserves the responsibility for our north, and if you think our Regular forces are screwed up, wait to you see what makes up the reserves, check out their man power or equipment...I mean what the regular army did not already steel. Any ways my point is as a nation we really have not put much thought into our sovereignty... we could not even defend our fishing grounds in the turbot wars. Our military is bleeding talent faster than it can be replaced, there is only so much someone can get kicked then they loss interest in their jobs... Defending the Nation is not important in Canada.. 

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23 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

So, your only alternative to diplomacy is war? Are you ignoring the fact that Canadians don't want a viable military?

China has enough problems trying to manage Tibet and they still remember their defeat at the hands of the Viet Namese.

Canadians want to eat their cake as well, they want a viable military when it comes to ice storms or floods, forest fires or when 50,000 Lebanese Canadians wanted out of a war zone, only to have to rent ships to take them back to Canada....then everyone  screams where is the army.

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37 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

So, your only alternative to diplomacy is war?

What a curious way to say it. You have a carnivorous giant living not too far who was known to harass neighbors. A passer-by suggested to build a good fence to keep him away. Oh no no! that would be a war! we'd rather hope for diplomacy!

If you're weak and it's no secret to anybody no matter what you think to yourself about yourself how would diplomacy help you?

Edited by myata
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7 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

You don't seem to have the concept of nuclear war. "Out gunned" is an irrelevant term. As President Kennedy said at the time, (in a nuclear war)" the fruits of victory would be ashes in our mouth."  If the US sank that Soviet ship, the USA, Canada, and the USSR would have been destroyed within 24 hours. 

 

The Soviets had far fewer nukes than they were letting on. They had 75 ICBM's at the most. The US had 170.

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42 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You mean like Norway, Sweden and Finland?

No, like Switzerland. 

39 minutes ago, Aristides said:

The Soviets had far fewer nukes than they were letting on. They had 75 ICBM's at the most. The US had 170.

Do you have any idea of what would happen to the northern hemisphere if you have hundreds of hydrogen bombs detonating? 75 ICBM's would destroy the US and Canada and you forget the manned bombers both sides deployed.

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9 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

No, like Switzerland. 

Do you have any idea of what would happen to the northern hemisphere if you have hundreds of hydrogen bombs detonating? 75 ICBM's would destroy the US and Canada and you forget the manned bombers both sides deployed.

Sure but there is no way the Soviets would have launched with that kind of inferiority. Back then, missiles also only carried single warheads not multiple warheads like today. The US had an even bigger superiority when it came to manned bombers.

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9 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

China is incapable of invading Canada

only America can do that

and doing it wouldn't be worth it for them

Canada has no good reason to go to war with China

or vice versa

Would the Americans keep them out of our Arctic and it’s waters? This is a country that actually needs submarines that can operate for extended periods under ice. We also need real warships that can operate in ice, unlike the patrol ships armed with pop guns like the ones we are building.

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29 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Would the Americans keep them out of our Arctic and it’s waters? This is a country that actually needs submarines that can operate for extended periods under ice. We also need real warships that can operate in ice, unlike the patrol ships armed with pop guns like the ones we are building.

the US Navy operates in the arctic

they got the nuclear subs covered

and they ain't gonna let Canada get in the game

when Canada tried, America said no and Canada complied

besides there is no benefit to getting in that game

and the taxpayers certainly aren't gonna foot the bill to do so

Edited by Yzermandius19
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On 9/19/2021 at 11:08 AM, myata said:

There's a simpler word for that: freeloaders. China is increasingly showing trends to dominance in the South Pacific, around Taiwan, suppression of democracy in Hong Kong, activity in South China See. Clearly, this kind of problems cannot be solved with smiling diplomacy, general goodness and nicely inclusive talking. So indeed why would anyone be interested?

It's intersting that the sub contract the Australians have cancelled with France was or 12 new submarines.

TWELVE.

Canada, with a third higher population, currently has 4 very old used subs which rarely work. And no plans to replace them.

Whatever happened to replacing our 40 year old F18s? We've seen zero progress in that since Trudeau got elected - for a reason. He's obviously told them to freeze it in place as the almost certain winner would be the one he dismissed as overpriced and not working when he was in opposition. His not being shown wrong is clearly MUCH more important than Canada's security.

And our new frigates to replace our 40 year old warships? No date on them. But it will be AT LEAST another decade. Because it's not like we're in a rush there, either.

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22 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Canada has never had a viable peace-time military because Canadians don't want it.

Have they been asked? It seems to me we don't have a viable military because the Liberals have been in power most of the last fifty years, and, based in Quebec, they tend to be anti-militaristic. As are most liberal Quebecers. I think most of the rest of Canada would prefer to have a viable military.

22 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The proposal made on this forum that we stand up to China must be tempered with the consequences that will be visited on Mr. Spavor and Mr. Kovrig. Of course, if anyone thinks that doesn't matter, I'm sure these hostages would be happy to trade places with these armchair foreign ministers.

Anyone who thinks we need to temper our behaviour according to what might anger hostage-takers is simply pleading with the world's strongmen to take more hostages.  Suppose these two are released tomorrow. Then what? Then we can be free to act in our interests? Well, what's to stop China from taking several more hostages the following week? Are we to be forever bowing to China and being silent about their abuses?

The two micheals went there voluntarily and worked there voluntarily and with some enthusiasm, one of them even making money by helping the horrible North Korean regime earn foreign currency. I do not believe our actions should be influenced AT ALL by what their hostage takers might do.

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20 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

So, with that in mind, what do you propose as an alternative to diplomacy? 

China respects nothing but force. If you cringe or silently accept their abuse, expect more of it. We should start by passing laws to protect Canadian immigrants from abuse by their former government. China has all kinds of agents in Canada pushing its agenda, controlling Chinese language media here, pressuring Chinese-Canadian businessmen and threatening students. Throw them all out. 

Close down the Confucius institutes, and any other agencies of Chinese influence in Canada. Start giving ships from China preferential treatment for extended searches which strategically slow down their goods. This would be done to search for drugs, especially fentanyl which the Chinese government allows to be shipped to other countries by criminals there. Do this in concert with trying to persuade Canadian importers to shift to other suppliers outside China. 

Start placing tariffs on Chinese goods, or even banning some for various reasons, made up or not. Including price dumping which they're almost all guilty of. Cut back on the number of Chinese students allowed into Canada. That should confuse them since that's usually one of the threats they make - to cut back the number of students.

Buy the F35 immediately. Speed up construction of the new frigates. See if the French want to sell us some of those submarines they were building for the Australians cheap.

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14 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Okay, Myata, are you willing to participate in a Swiss style conscription system and pay for the acquisition of naval. air and army assets capable of defeating any enemy? 

 

Any enemy? That's not the proposal. No one is suggesting we need to have the power of a US. We're not going to be the big, musclebound bully on the block. But it'd be nice not to be the 98lb weakling everyone picks on either.

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On 9/16/2021 at 7:42 AM, Argus said:

The US, UK and Australia announced a new military and defensive pact which will include sharing of both military technology and intelligence information thought to sensitive for the other two members of what used to be called the "Five Eyes". That would be Canada and New Zealand, now considered far too close to the Chinese government and neither interested in doing anything whatsoever to resist Chinese influence. Besides no one considers Canada's pretend military to be of any value in a military alliance, and the Liberals have made it clear they have no intention of expanding or modernizing it.

The Aukus alliance is probably the most significant security arrangement between the three nations since World War Two, analysts say. The pact will focus on military capability, separating it from the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing alliance which also includes New Zealand and Canada. While Australia's submarines is the big-ticket item, Aukus will also involve the sharing of cyber capabilities and other undersea technologies.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58564837

Canada is a joke. And if Castro Trudeau even gets a minority lieberal communist government Canada will no doubt become an even bigger joke. Canada is a joke. Thanks to old man and young punk comrade Trudeau's Canada is getting very close to becoming a communist globalist controlled country today. 

But I do not see where this guy Argus really cares about Canada anyways because he is a liberal conservative supporter and an O'Tool suck. Go away Argus. You are one of the main reasons why Canada has become a big joke and is fast approaching becoming a communist globalist controlled country. 

The leaders of Australia, US and the UK are all acting like communist Chinese dictators themselves. They are all trying to take away freedom and rights from their citizen's. This defensive pact is just another false flag that people like Argus eat up like cake. With liberal conservatives like O'Tool and Argus around my freedoms and rights are in jeopardy. ?

 

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Argus, you and I are in agreement but we are not in step with the majority of Canadians. Between the wars, we had less than 5000 all ranks in the regular force and the militia was not viable. An artillery unit "fired the gun" once a year. My Strategic Studies prof was in a militia infantry unit. His unit had a "liberated" grenade that was disarmed and they would practice throwing it.

It was much better when I was in the reserves (a Highlander Regiment) in the 1970's. I was Regimental Quartermaster on the occasion of our 75th anniversary. I was able to kit out the CO, and the Adjutant in complete uniforms. We paraded infant of guests including the LG, and officers from the US Army. It was embarrassing. What made it worse was later in the week, I saw a clip of Idi Amin, Field Marshal and President for Life of Uganda, reviewing his Ugandan Highland Regiment, all fully kitted out with every thing we needed, the only difference being they were armed with AK-47's instead of our FN's.

If the military is unable to act independently without allied support, it is not capable of fulfilling it's mandate. Half a force is a token force and a waste of money. 

To achieve what you and the others on this forum want, we need to be able to have air superiority over china and the western Pacific and sufficient navel forces to sink the Chinese navy. Any land engagement with the Chinese army is out of the question. 

Using the Swiss model, we should be able to field a sizeable force in 72 hours. 

Do you believe Canadians are any more agreeable to conscription now than in 1942?

Do you believe taxpayers are prepared to pay for the hundreds of warships and thousands of tanks and  Thousands of combat aircraft required?

Do you believe Canadians would agree to arm the Canadian Forces with nuclear weapons?

The reason we have only a token force is because governing politicians are very good at reading the public mood. The Conservatives defence policy is the same as the Liberals. I even questioned Stockwell Day on the matter and his response was just as pathetic. How many men between the ages of 16 and 60 do you know would be willing to serve full time for five years and be called up for two months per year until they are 60. Switzerland, in the 1980's and 90's could field the largest military force in Europe.

I believe Canada should have a defence policy with teeth but I am realistic enough to see I am part of a microscopic minority.

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14 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

China is incapable of invading Canada

only America can do that

and doing it wouldn't be worth it for them

Canada has no good reason to go to war with China

or vice versa

One does not need to have a massive NORMANDY landing of troops to disrupt a nation, and throw it into disarray, we learned that on Sept 11... attacking key nods could shut down power grids, disrupt transportation grids air, land and sea, spread fear amongst the local population this can be done with out any landing craft or ships...

Other modes of attack could be via cyber warfare, something CSIS has been warning the government about for years and still no action, these attacks could also shut down power grids, finical districts, anything that is run by computers, which pretty much covers almost everything. China makes most of our electronic equipment , chips etc, that are used in everything such as government computers, DND , RCMP, CSIS, you name it...maybe even our 5 g networks...all of which could compromise almost everything. 

The ability to influence elections also mentioned by CSIS, influence ex Chinese Canadian population by threats of harming family members still in China. The ability to heavily influence our economy, as most of our imports are from China, and a good portion of our exports go to China...China has been very busy purchasing a large chunk of our industries, influencing our housing sales, funding massive projects our own government will not...

Let me ask you this what do you think if several power grids for Ontario and Quebec where to go down, leaving the largest cities with no power for just a week or 2 in the winter...now what would happen if we combined all of that with cyber attacks , random terrorist attacks, knocking down a few airliners... shit,3 Newfies in a row boat armed with a couple shot guns and a drone could land on the beach in BC and take over...

A while Canada does not have a reason today to go to war with china, you could bet a years wage that if the US or any of the now 3 eyes get into a military engagement with China , we would be there within days.... and if it stayed conventional your sons and daughters will be enlisted and sent to the front to fight with what ever we still have on hand.. ships take years to build, planes months and to train a soldier properly months as well... we do not live in the 1940's where we could build a plane in a day, or a ship in a month train a soldier in a couple months... things are way more complicated than that...

Lets not forget for a second China is not a threat. The free world spends trillions on their militaries to ensure China among a few others blinks and has second thoughts before they do anything...Canada has very little defense against any of those above threats..

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I have campaigned to change that for fifty years without any change. I am out of ideas. My complaining about it won't accomplish anything. As you say, we are looking at 10 - 15 years to build, but that is after the years it will take to change the minds of voters. You have to convince people to be willing to pay a lot more taxes and young people to participate. 

Once you have an effective military, you have to maintain it year after year while it sits idle, sucking treasure from the economy. We are not like Israel where the threat is constant and motivating. 

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6 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

the US Navy operates in the arctic

they got the nuclear subs covered

and they ain't gonna let Canada get in the game

when Canada tried, America said no and Canada complied

besides there is no benefit to getting in that game

and the taxpayers certainly aren't gonna foot the bill to do so

Why should the Americans support Canadian territorial claims, we have disputes with the US in Arctic as well.

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3 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I have campaigned to change that for fifty years without any change. I am out of ideas. My complaining about it won't accomplish anything. As you say, we are looking at 10 - 15 years to build, but that is after the years it will take to change the minds of voters. You have to convince people to be willing to pay a lot more taxes and young people to participate. 

Once you have an effective military, you have to maintain it year after year while it sits idle, sucking treasure from the economy. We are not like Israel where the threat is constant and motivating. 

Only because we rely on the US to do it for us.

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