OftenWrong Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, blackbird said: Lots of people will say and in many ways they do "care for other human beings". Even Trudeau and Singh believe themselves in that category as do followers of cults and Communists, Fascists, etc. The problem is a person can sincerely believe they are caring and be absolutely wrong in things they do. Their judgment can be good in many things but in certain things they can be terribly misinformed and wrong. The Communists in Chairman Mao's regime killed millions of people under the sincere belief they were doing it for the greater good of their comrades, the party, and country. Being sincere means nothing if you are wrong on important issues. We were talking about health care workers. They chose it as a profession. They work long hours for weeks on end if necessary. They require constant training to work in their environment. They are able to do the work even while unvaccinated against the patients disease. Happens all the time. Long before covid. They risk their lives to treat patients. But they know how to minimize the risk. That is how they are able to carry on despite annual disease outbreaks. That should dispel any nonsense about them being “selfish and uncaring” about patients. Let alone the notion they dont know how to work in infectious environment. These are intelligent, caring people. I will bet most of them are veterans with many years experience, NOT newbies. The real question is WHY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 2 hours ago, blackbird said: There have been lots of anti-vaxxers and freedom fighters who repented and confessed they were wrong in their dying hours with Covid in the ICU. Thanks, you're only confirming the rule, with your sorrywhatever. One just has to conclude that there's nothing else of substance and by default it has to come down to scare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 9 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: We were talking about health care workers. They chose it as a profession. They work long hours for weeks on end if necessary. They require constant training to work in their environment. They are able to do the work even while unvaccinated against the patients disease. Happens all the time. Long before covid. They risk their lives to treat patients. But they know how to minimize the risk. That is how they are able to carry on despite annual disease outbreaks. That should dispel any nonsense about them being “selfish and uncaring” about patients. Let alone the notion they dont know how to work in infectious environment. These are intelligent, caring people. I will bet most of them are veterans with many years experience, NOT newbies. The real question is WHY. You still missed the point that many can be hard-working in their job and even caring, but still fail on the one point of not getting vaccinated to protect other people. Somewhere along the line they may have imbibed misinformation. This is quite likely what happened. The false information is so readily available on the internet and certain television programs or from some anti-vaxxer friends. The only way the government can deal with it to protect people is to make vaccination mandatory or you are suspended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Aristides said: So what? Moaning about the past doesn't do shit to deal with the present. How much excess capacity do you think we should have, we are already near the top when it comes to the amount of GDP we spend on health care. So, nothing. If the system is cr..p and no change is possible it isn't the fault of everybody around (it may be related but in a different dimension, that of citizenship, civic activity and responsibility, but that's another thread). So does it make any sense to blindly obey every word from a cr..ppy manager ("travel from Wuhan") doing a cr..ppy job in a cr..ppy system just to make up for their clueless and ongoing failures? Does it excuse or explain them? Not in my logic book, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 55 minutes ago, blackbird said: You still missed the point that many can be hard-working in their job and even caring, but still fail on the one point of not getting vaccinated to protect other people. Somewhere along the line they may have imbibed misinformation. This is quite likely what happened. The false information is so readily available on the internet and certain television programs or from some anti-vaxxer friends. The only way the government can deal with it to protect people is to make vaccination mandatory or you are suspended. Sorry sir you are way off. All you have is speculation without even a logical argument to back it up. Sure, thousands of health care workers in Quebec and Ontario are ignoring their education and risking their lives on the job, because of facebook memes. Ridiculous. Use your brain man. Some are nurses, some doctors. Rest assured you don’t know why they believe its not necessary to vaccinate, not at all. And I dont have the time to tell you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 3 hours ago, myata said: So, nothing. If the system is cr..p and no change is possible it isn't the fault of everybody around (it may be related but in a different dimension, that of citizenship, civic activity and responsibility, but that's another thread). So does it make any sense to blindly obey every word from a cr..ppy manager ("travel from Wuhan") doing a cr..ppy job in a cr..ppy system just to make up for their clueless and ongoing failures? Does it excuse or explain them? Not in my logic book, sorry. Moan, moan, moan, bitch, bitch, bitch. What do you propose to do about the situation today? Now? Even if you can conjure up dozens of more ICU beds, who are you going to get to look after them? It takes almost a decade to train a doctor and RN is a four year science degree. I'm not interest in your bitching because it doesn't do anything to cope with our present situation. The only thing that will is getting as many people vaccinated as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, Aristides said: The only thing that will is getting as many people vaccinated as possible. the evidence shows that this is no panacea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 3 hours ago, OftenWrong said: We were talking about health care workers. They chose it as a profession. They work long hours for weeks on end if necessary. They require constant training to work in their environment. They are able to do the work even while unvaccinated against the patients disease. Happens all the time. Long before covid. They risk their lives to treat patients. But they know how to minimize the risk. That is how they are able to carry on despite annual disease outbreaks. That should dispel any nonsense about them being “selfish and uncaring” about patients. Let alone the notion they dont know how to work in infectious environment. These are intelligent, caring people. I will bet most of them are veterans with many years experience, NOT newbies. The real question is WHY. Actually I do think they are selfish and an insult to the majority of their fellow workers who are vaccinated. Them winding up in ICU themselves will be an extra burden on those fellow workers who were more responsible as well as an extra burden on the system they work for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 Just now, Yzermandius19 said: the evidence shows that this is no panacea Bullshit, the unvaccinated are 37 times more likely to wind up in intensive care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, Aristides said: Bullshit, the unvaccinated are 37 times more likely to wind up in intensive care. that is still no panacea we aren't going to vaccinate our way out of covid no matter how many people get it Edited September 17, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/coronavirus-covid19-canada-world-sept16-2021-1.6177762 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/covid-alberta-deena-hinshaw-verna-yiu-1.6178262 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: that is still no panacea we aren't going to vaccinate our way out of covid no matter how many people get it We can keep it from overwhelming our health care system. At the present rate, Alberta has 10 days of ICU capacity. The new restrictions won't have any effect for at least two weeks. Edited September 17, 2021 by Aristides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Aristides said: We can keep it from overwhelming our health care system. At the present rate, Alberta has 10 days of ICU capacity. The new restrictions won't have any effect for at least two weeks. the ICUs will be fine either way they keep claiming the ICUs will be pushed beyond capacity and it never happens boy who cried wolf over 9000 how many times do they have to pull this stunt before you stop taking their word for it? if it doesn't happen this time, are you going to buy it the next time they claim it will happen? Edited September 17, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: the ICUs will be fine either way they keep claiming the ICUs will be pushed beyond capacity and it never happens boy who cried wolf over 9000 how many times do they have to pull this stunt before you stop taking their word for it? Bullshit. In May, Manitoba was sending Covid patients to Ontario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Aristides said: Bullshit. In May, Manitoba was sending Covid patients to Ontario. so? patients get moved all the time, pandemic or no pandemic the ICUs handled it, the doomsday never came even with a much smaller percentage of the population vaccinated Edited September 17, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: so? patients get moved all the time, pandemic or no pandemic Bullshit, these were Covid ICU cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Aristides said: Bullshit, these were Covid ICU cases. so? the system handled it no doomsday despite all the claims to the contrary that it couldn't Edited September 17, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: so? the system handled it no doomsday despite all the claims to the contrary that it couldn't Manitoba had to send Covid ICU cases to Ontario. What if Ontario wasn't able to take them because of their own case load? The GTA itself was shipping patients to other parts of Ontario because it couldn't cope. How easy do you think it is to airlift someone on a ventilator? WTF will it take before you pay attention? Edited September 17, 2021 by Aristides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Aristides said: Manitoba had to send Covid ICU cases to Ontario. What if Ontario wasn't able to take them because of their own case load? The GTA itself was shipping patients to other parts of Ontario because it couldn't cope. WTF will it take before you pay attention? overloads in some areas does not mean the system was anywhere close to failing they keep claiming doomsday is right around the corner and then everytime it doesn't they simply claim it's right around the corner again and you keep falling for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: overloads in some areas does not mean the system was anywhere close to failing they keep claiming doomsday is right around the corner and then everytime it doesn't they simply claim it's right around the corner again and you keep falling for it Provinces do not ship critical patients to other provinces. Clearly I'm wasting my time with you. I would never wish someone to wind up in an ICU but have no sympathy for the willingly unvaccinated. As far as I am concerned they are pariahs taking up hospital beds they have no business being in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Aristides said: I would never wish someone to wind up in an ICU but have no sympathy for the willingly unvaccinated. As far as I am concerned they are pariahs taking up hospital beds they have no business being in. hence why support taking away their rights for a false sense of security it's all about revenge for not behaving the way you want them to you think that is grounds to treat them like scum, all while you claim false moral high ground Edited September 17, 2021 by Yzermandius19 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 Just now, Yzermandius19 said: hence why support taking away their rights for a false sense of security it's all about revenge for not behaving the way you want them to you think that is grounds to treat them like scum They aren't scum, just really stupid. Why should I have sympathy for those who are responsible for their own fate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Aristides said: They aren't scum, just really stupid. Why should I have sympathy for those who are responsible for their own fate. they didn't choose to contract the virus any more than the vaccinated if you only have sympathy with those who exercise their rights in a way you agree with then it is obvious why you don't care about their rights you have no moral high ground they aren't trying to take away your rights if anyone has the moral high ground, it's those who oppose taking away others rights Edited September 17, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: they didn't choose to contract the virus any more than the vaccinated if you only have sympathy with those who exercise their rights in a way you agree with then it is obvious why you don't care about their rights you have no moral high ground they aren't trying to take away your rights By not getting vaccinated, they decided to roll the dice and lost. I have no quarrel with your right to decide but there is no way I have to respect your decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Aristides said: By not getting vaccinated, they decided to roll the dice and lost. I have no quarrel with your right to decide but there is no way I have to respect your decisions. they have every right to roll the dice you have every right to not agree with that decision there is only a problem if you wish to use that as justification to strip them of their rights Edited September 17, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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