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Pandemic will likely get worse in the fall and winter but no more lockdowns.


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1 hour ago, Infidel Dog said:

 

But only 20% of the population is unvaccinated, So 8 out of 10 people can possibly infect you but their possibility of getting infected is less than the 2 out of 10 people who are unvaccinated.

You are playing games with numbers. The fact is that you as an individual, if unvaccinated, are much more likely to get and have covid and then give it to others than I, as a fully vaccinated person. You are thus placing people in more danger than they need to be every time you go near anyone.

As for the dangers of vaccines, I don't care how many of the lunatic ravings of mental defectives you post, I'm not going to accept that the entire scientific and medical establishment is in collusion with every western government to lie about it just to inconvenience you.

 

nls40u9crsi71.jpg

Edited by Argus
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25 minutes ago, Argus said:

You are playing games with numbers. The fact is that you as an individual, if unvaccinated, are much more likely to get and have covid and then give it to others than I, as a fully vaccinated person. You are thus placing people in more danger than they need to be every time you go near anyone.

As for the dangers of vaccines, I don't care how many of the lunatic ravings of mental defectives you post, I'm not going to accept that the entire scientific and medical establishment is in collusion with every western government to lie about it just to inconvenience you.

 

nls40u9crsi71.jpg

 

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Well if you want to get nasty, Argus what you appear to have there are a couple of vague pictographs from some sort of online graphing ap illustrating what may have happened in some Canadian province that isn't nearly as important to some of us as it is to you. It appears to cover a period of about a week and a half and it would seem you're more impressed by it than I am because you can't seem to get over the fact that a number from a week and a half in a tiny of segment of the world population contradicts what we're seeing in places like Israel, the UK, Iceland and Singapore. 

And this you believe qualifies you to call a Nobel Prize winner and the co-creator of the mRNA vaccine technology you can't stop bloviating about "raving lunatics." But as I recall, Fauci who has never been right about anything and looks more corrupt with each passing week is your hero.

 And Math is just a game to you when it shows the potential danger of vaccinating outweighing that of waiting until all the facts are in, is it?

I think if you're looking for raving lunatics there's a thing called a mirror you might want to check into.

 

Edited by Infidel Dog
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Yes an absolute top grade strawman.

Nobody accused the scientific and medical establishment  of being in collusion on a lie.

One group of doctors are right and another group of doctors are wrong.

We disagree on which is which.

My money's on the guys who have been right since this began against the ones who so far have been consistently wrong.

 

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If you need a conspiracy theory for your little strawman army though I can probably make one up for you.

It wouldn't be a collusion of medical establishment though. They don't seem that kind of bright. Maybe the great resetters working behind the scenes to put a dementia ridden dummy in the Whitehouse, distract the public with some lockdowns, mask mandates vaccine passports while they build what Hayek called the "Road to Serfdom" - stuff like that.

Edited by Infidel Dog
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It's been close to a year of Delta variant (December 2020, India and UK). We, the society need answers:

1. What is the rate of infection, in any form, non symptomatic, light etc. in vaccinated population vs non vaccinated?

2. How likely is infected vaccinated individual to infect others?

Cases won't tell us the full story because there are undetected and not reported cases. Cases and hospitalizations show us the top and tip of the iceberg, not the whole thing. All we hear is how great it is in preventing serious cases, not the same answer. Serious cases are a small minority in the healthy younger population anyways, and this is not just statistics. Based on these answers we need to decide, thoughtfully and responsibly, whether vaccinations need to be targeted to specific groups or applied universally.

Why do we not have the answers? Do we not have crowds of experts and managers paid out of public pocket and responsible just for that, for finding answers to important questions and communicating them to the society? What does this situation tell us about, forget the virus, us and our society, when in almost a year we just cannot get answers critical for development of correct policies? Why do we have, yet again, to resort to stretching and assumptions as opposed to knowing the answers? What is wrong with us, over and yet again?

Or is it just another case of a blind talking to a deaf, or st...d to common sense? In that case, sure I get it. Little point in a one-way conversation.

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The numbers say the pandemic IS getting worse but the stubborn pretending to be “patriots” (?) seem to want their line in the sand drawn.

That line is going to invite an increase in vaccine “passport” proof for admittance in a rapidly growing list of places. Frankly, people don’t want you around anyway if you’re so self centred so stay home and pound your chests in “freedom” shouting HAIL TO THE FREE to anyone who’ll listen.

???

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I don't understand why the small minority of population who are very active here are trying so hard to deny and misrepresent the obvious and attack those who try to represent available data on vaccine effectiveness in order to save lives!!. We are not the enemy here. The damn virus is.

COVID-19: Science Table confirms vaccines' effectiveness

The data supports research showing that COVID-19 vaccines protect against serious illness and death even when there are occasional breakthrough cases in people who have been vaccinated.

According to data issued Friday by the Ontario Science Advisory Table, people who were vaccinated against COVID-19 were 88 per cent less likely to become infected and more than 96 per cent less likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 than people who were unvaccinated.

 

More dramatically, fully-vaccinated people were almost 99 per cent less likely to end up in intensive care units (ICU).

The data supports research showing that COVID-19 vaccines protect against serious illness and death even when there are occasional breakthrough cases in people who have been vaccinated.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/covid-19-new-cases-continue-to-rise-689-reported-in-ontario

Edited by CITIZEN_2015
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This is truly some brave new world I'm struggling to make sense of. The article cites these great numbers and that, I lost the count of how many distracting ad inserts and yet missing the one link to the source itself. What are the conditions and assumptions of the study? How was it collected? I checked twice please let me know if mistaken. Guess the practice and what if the idea itself of independent checks and verification is going away, out the window, fast. Maybe the journalists went on exchange in Russia and China?

If vaccinated hardly get infected and have a risk of 1% of 1% of a serious case, why are the restrictions not coming down?

"In health units in the capital region: Kingston reported four new cases, while there were two in Eastern Ontario health."

OK. Two or 4 cases, in a population of hundreds of thousands if not millions. Success? Ok, when are the restrictions coming down, st(andar)d?

P.S. the data as cited (no way to verify the source without additional effort) has problems with logical and factual consistency. With three quarters of the population fully vaccinated (as cited) and purportedly, only 1/10 of infection risk of non vaccinated (as cited), compared to summer 2020 when there were no vaccinated it would put a very strong brake on the transmission of the infection in the population. The variant has to be hugely, possibly order(s) of magnitude more infective to keep spreading (reported R-number 1.1) and nothing of the kind has been reported in the literature.

So, hear - see, again. Big successes achieved but cases continue to rise so have to remain vigilant and the struggle marches on. Why do I feel like deja heard something of the kind already?

Edited by myata
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Let's point out these statistics are for a specific population of Ontario over a specific time period and are contradicted by stats from other regions of the world.

In Israel for example and according to the New York Times of August 18 2021.

"

JERUSALEM — Last spring, Israel’s remarkably swift vaccination campaign was seen as a global model. Coronavirus infections plummeted, an electronic pass allowed the vaccinated to attend indoor concerts and sporting events, and distancing rules and mask mandates were eventually scrapped.
Israel offered the world a hopeful glimpse of the way out of the pandemic.
No longer.
 
One of the most vaccinated societies, Israel now has one of the highest infection rates in the world, raising questions about the vaccine’s efficacy.
 
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4 hours ago, RedDog said:

The numbers say the pandemic IS getting worse but the stubborn pretending to be “patriots” (?) seem to want their line in the sand drawn.

That line is going to invite an increase in vaccine “passport” proof for admittance in a rapidly growing list of places. Frankly, people don’t want you around anyway if you’re so self centred so stay home and pound your chests in “freedom” shouting HAIL TO THE FREE to anyone who’ll listen.

???

Would you like to see where the lock-em-down for months over less than flu level stats takes you? Check out Australia?

I think it's happening in  France and Germany too.

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1 hour ago, Infidel Dog said:

Let's point out these statistics are for a specific population of Ontario over a specific time period and are contradicted by stats from other regions of the world.

In Israel for example and according to the New York Times of August 18 2021.

"

JERUSALEM — Last spring, Israel’s remarkably swift vaccination campaign was seen as a global model. Coronavirus infections plummeted, an electronic pass allowed the vaccinated to attend indoor concerts and sporting events, and distancing rules and mask mandates were eventually scrapped.
Israel offered the world a hopeful glimpse of the way out of the pandemic.
No longer.
 
One of the most vaccinated societies, Israel now has one of the highest infection rates in the world, raising questions about the vaccine’s efficacy.
 

In Israel:

The vaccinated patients are older, unhealthy, often they were bedridden before infection, immobile and already requiring nursing care,” said Noa Eliakim-Raz, head of the coronavirus ward at Rabin Medical Centre in Petach Tikva.

In contrast, “the unvaccinated COVID patients we see are young, healthy, working people and their condition deteriorates rapidly,” she said. “Suddenly they’re being put on oxygen or on a respirator.”

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/8127794/covid-israel-breakthrough-cases-doctors/

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58 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:
  21 hours ago, Argus said:

The risk you take by not getting vaxxed is not just yours. You are forcing everyone you encounter to take more risk, as well.

Maybe the problem is that we are living in a non-binary logic age? I know it sounds complicated but it's really simple meaning that a statement and its opposite can coexist in one and same narrative without mutual contradiction, and sometimes, even slightest problem. Let's try, shall we? OK:

"people who were vaccinated against COVID-19 were 88 per cent less likely to become infected and more than 96 per cent less likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19".

OK, so 4% of around 1% for young healthy adults (hospitalization rate before vaccines) and say 5% for vulnerable age groups, coming to 0.04% to 0.2% risk of hospitalization for a vaccinated individual (based on quoted stats). Already quoted risk of a traffic related injury in Ontario is 0.6% that's three times higher than for a vaccinated in the highest risk group (and over ten, for a regular healthy citizen). So is it so very dangerous that "the risk is not yours"? Or is it super effective that it, the risk, is smaller than that of a traffic accident? Maybe one doesn't need to guess any longer because both can be true simultaneously... in some minds.

Edited by myata
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1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

In Israel:

The vaccinated patients are older, unhealthy, often they were bedridden before infection, immobile and already requiring nursing care,” said Noa Eliakim-Raz, head of the coronavirus ward at Rabin Medical Centre in Petach Tikva.

In contrast, “the unvaccinated COVID patients we see are young, healthy, working people and their condition deteriorates rapidly,” she said. “Suddenly they’re being put on oxygen or on a respirator.”

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/8127794/covid-israel-breakthrough-cases-doctors/

I'm not sure that would matter (even if it's true) when the argument is we need to identify the unvaccinated for special management because they can infect our vaccinated.

Old or young the vaccinated can still infect people. Argus says not as much. Citizen seems to be saying it's OK if they're old or health diminished. All I said was Israel says the vaccinated can spread the disease and it's significant.

The UK seems to agree. Vaccinated can also be a problem as far as spreading the infection goes:

"

The latest report reveals that there have been 73,372 confirmed cases of the Delta Covid-19 variant among the fully vaccinated population, an increase of 26,364 on the last count made in the previous report where the confirmed figure was 47,008 up to the 2nd August 2021.

Edited by Infidel Dog
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You said it in reply to my observation vaccinated are contributing to a significant increase in the spread in Israel.

Your point was 'yeah but they're old and unhealthy cause a nurse we found says so.'

So how am I not to conclude you're saying it's OK for the vaccinated to contribute to the spread if they're old and unhealthy?

Edited by Infidel Dog
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Would you like to see an interesting one from Scotland that shows a sneaky trick in how the stats are presented to hide the fact that recently deaths among the vaccinated are increasing:

https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/08/18/fully-vaccinated-account-for-73-of-recent-covid-19-deaths-and-data-shows-fully-vaccinated-are-over-5-times-more-likely-to-die-if-infected-with-covid-19/

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1 hour ago, Infidel Dog said:

The latest report reveals that there have been 73,372 confirmed cases of the Delta Covid-19 variant among the fully vaccinated population, an increase of 26,364 on the last count made in the previous report where the confirmed figure was 47,008 up to the 2nd August 2021.

 

Is this some sort of a bullship comet in this space and century? How the fracking is it even possible (is it?) that in Ontario vaccinated are infected at around 10% while in UK, it's 47%? Are these two different planets, or disconnected realities or ... what? If for example, the numbers somehow wouldn't line themselves up correctly, time, after time and again, would it still be only an honest mistake oops?

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2 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

Would you like to see an interesting one from Scotland that shows a sneaky trick in how the stats are presented to hide the fact that recently deaths among the vaccinated are increasing:

https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/08/18/fully-vaccinated-account-for-73-of-recent-covid-19-deaths-and-data-shows-fully-vaccinated-are-over-5-times-more-likely-to-die-if-infected-with-covid-19/

The Daily Expose is a U.K.-focused conspiracy site created in November of last year, and since its establishment, it has promoted a standard portfolio of COVID-denialist, anti-vaxxer, and Great Reset myths framed as breaking news. It has grown to be extremely influential in the alt-news ecosystem, with its articles getting thousands of shares per day on Telegram, Twitter, and other private chat channels. Although the website is less than a year old, it has grown by more than 300,000 page views per month since January, with the last data available suggesting it had more than 1.5 million total cumulative views. 

Unusually for a conspiracy site, The Daily Expose produces original content several times per day, rather than resharing memes or articles from elsewhere. On its “about” page, it claims to use only official documents from government or scientific sources to write its stories. The writers often distort or misinterpret the information within the snapshots of the documents they use to push a number of conspiratorial narratives. For instance, The Daily Expose has claimed that vaccines were approved without any sort of safety checks and that vaccines are causing mass death. 

The writers and contributors don’t request interviews with scientists, government officials, or other qualified experts to make sure they’re interpreting these documents correctly. Nor do they give the right of reply to any of the institutions or figures they are reporting on, which is an expected journalistic practice.

https://www.logically.ai/articles/actors-behind-uk-misinformation-site-the-daily-expose

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16 minutes ago, Argus said:

No, dumbass, they're only better protected. 

A rule of scientific writing requires relative adjective to be used with a reference. "Better" protected than what? Well that is no secret. According to the cited data, a vaccinated individual in a highest risk group is indeed protected better (again, if the numbers can be trusted) than from an injury in a traffic accident.

Question: who jumped and waved hands up and down, begged and cried and required from complete strangers this and that because of non-zero possibility of a traffic accident, 19.. - 2019?

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Bottom line: if you broadcast those pretty numbers, it makes sense to act as though you believe them, even enthusiastically maybe, or it may look funny. Look people this wonderful stock it's simply bound to go up let's all invest in it! Ok so, will you bet ten bucks on it? Eh.. em... if Central Banks of England and North Korea guarantee it... Silence.

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