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Afghanistan and democracy


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The political system in Afghanistan, supported for a decade by Western powers in the hope to create a functional democracy is collapsing in our eyes like a card house. This is of no big surprise, though the rate of the process, after all the investments and efforts, can be. Pseudo democratic system constructed in Afghanistan is based on and reflecting foreign principles and models, a thin wrapper ostensibly legitimized by once in so many years elections. And it has so little relevance to the reality of a regular family on the ground, with its performances, obscene by the regular standard of living in the country paychecks, and why not, corruption. So when a threatening force rose why would a regular citizen answer mobilization call? Who is there to defend, and what?

Could there be some parallels there for way more developed societies, ahead of hardly avoidable turmoil of precipitous and severe climate change likely to bring massive changes to natural and social environments? Who would you defend, it case of future threats and challenges, natural and man made? On paper "representatives" -party employees (please see the Act: "representatives" for the folks in the colorful brochure, whereas "employees", for the package) with obscene remuneration packages way beyond even remote reference to the reality in the country? Unlimited expense accounts of figureheads of state? Unlimited and unconditional powers of PM to create apparent only, not to worry (though how would one know, with "employees" in place of independent representatives?), conflicts of interest and shut down "parliamentary" inquiries? Theatrics of the "question period"? Does it, the system, work for the citizens still, or mostly/only needs them once every so many years for apparent legitimization?

I'm not talking about the country, but political system, democracy if it can be called that in the full meaning of the word. Is there still more in this country's democracy for you to support and defend if and when needed, than for the Afghans in their?

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On 8/13/2021 at 8:23 AM, myata said:

...

Could there be some parallels there for way more developed societies, ahead of hardly avoidable turmoil of precipitous and severe climate change likely to bring massive changes to natural and social environments?

...

None whatsoever.

====

Years ago - late 1980s? -I was in Tehran and I passed by some Afghans in a majlis. Trust me, we are going back several centuries to, uh,  Henry VII times.

Let them be.

As long as they don't let anyone bother us.

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Posted (edited)

Afghanistan is falling to Taleban because people don't understand and don't give a s.. about "democracy" that is a foreign and suspicious concept to them. That is clear. Do people in the west still care about theirs though? And will the fate of it, maybe in the longer run, be different if they stopped?

Edited by myata
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The Afghan government couldn't survive without Western troops because it never succeeded in establishing loyalty from the tribal and clan chiefs, and because its innate corruption and theft at every level also meant it never obtained any sense of loyalty from the soldiers who were expected to fight and die to preserve it. All the higher level officers were political appointees with little ability who stole everything they could. Small wonder none of their men would fight.

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I wonder when Taliban takes over what will their view be on issues such as the trans-law, the LGTB-issues in general  or ambitions on combatting the climate change. I wonder are the pride-marches still going to go ahead.

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45 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

I wonder when Taliban takes over what will their view be on issues such as the trans-law, the LGTB-issues in general  or ambitions on combatting the climate change. I wonder are the pride-marches still going to go ahead.

You might as well not post, if you are going to post nothings like this.

 

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43 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You might as well not post, if you are going to post nothings like this.

 

The point I was trying to make that we in the western world have the privilege to be concerned about those issues I mentioned. 

Just imagine there was some economic disaster which brought our living standards to the level of Afghanistan. 

Would we still be concerned about the LGTB-rights? Would we even need Taliban to not to give a shit about it? I don't think so. 

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1 hour ago, -TSS- said:

Just imagine there was some economic disaster which brought our living standards to the level of Afghanistan. 

Would we still be concerned about the LGTB-rights? Would we even need Taliban to not to give a shit about it? I don't think so. 

I guess so.  Likewise, we would not have the capacity to enjoy most of our cultural advantages, as we see them.

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10 hours ago, -TSS- said:

I wonder when Taliban takes over what will their view be on issues such as the trans-law, the LGTB-issues in general  or ambitions on combatting the climate change. I wonder are the pride-marches still going to go ahead.

Is this a joke? These sub-humans force women out of education, forced women into wearing berka, execute people for simple disobedience, do not allow women to leave home without permission and many more atrocities against their own people and you ask what will be their view on LGTB, or environment change!!!!!! They don't even know what environment change is. They live in 6th century beheading and lashing.

Edited by CITIZEN_2015
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I read several pieces on the fall of Afghan system with claims that West "betrayed and abandoned" them. At first it sounded preposterous and naive to me, like believing in Santa's promise to bring democracy, human rights, women's rights, school education for girls etc for Christmas. But after consideration I now thing there's a ring of truth to it.

The West should never have pretended that it's anything but security. There's no ground for democracy in Afghanistan, Iraq and similar societies, and was not so there's no point in promoting unsubstantiated mirage, dream and getting people to believe in it and risk their living for it. The first question on the agenda after defeating Taliban should have been, what will fill the power vacuum and the answer had to be based on the reality not pipe dreaming. In that list, the democracy  option would be around x or y and the first two ones, a friendlier local power; or Taliban, if there's none. Yes, no point in pipe dreaming, if nothing fills the vacuum there would have been few other options. Just as one can observe now.

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On 8/15/2021 at 4:44 PM, myata said:

Afghanistan is falling to Taleban because people don't understand and don't give a s.. about "democracy" that is a foreign and suspicious concept to them.

It's true most of them probably don't care for what you call democracy, but that's not why they're losing the war. Do you think if democracy was established the Taliban would be satisfied and stop attacking people?

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14 minutes ago, Savannahleaf said:

Do you think if democracy was established the Taliban would be satisfied and stop attacking people?

I highly doubt that, however it would be able to defend itself, or at least, try it seriously. From what we see, it's not like people could not fight or had nothing to fight with, they just did not have much / anything to fight FOR.

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41 minutes ago, myata said:

I highly doubt that, however it would be able to defend itself, or at least, try it seriously.

How does democracy help here?

42 minutes ago, myata said:

From what we see, it's not like people could not fight or had nothing to fight with, they just did not have much / anything to fight FOR. 

Where do you get this? What do you mean?

They have a weak army and weak technology. Do you know of some secret weapons they have that would beat the Taliban?

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On 8/15/2021 at 9:08 PM, -TSS- said:

The point I was trying to make that we in the western world have the privilege to be concerned about those issues I mentioned. 

Just imagine there was some economic disaster which brought our living standards to the level of Afghanistan. 

Would we still be concerned about the LGTB-rights? Would we even need Taliban to not to give a shit about it? I don't think so. 

You think living standards are what makes Afghanistan against LGBT-rights? You think there aren't people there concerned about LGBT-rights — Right about now, for instance?

Afghanistan has pretty strict laws against everything related to LGBT.

https://papersowl.com/examples/lgbtq-rights-in-afghanistan/
 

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There was a story I read about Afghan army commandos complaining about supplies shortly before surrender to Taliban. That's very indicative, can a country, ostensibly democracy fall over a bag of bad potatoes or it's only a symptom of something else?

What else? Officials and bureaucrats under the banner of democracy paid out of someone else's pocket scurrying to escape neglecting and failing critical supplies at critical time? Rampant corruption that also has in its heart absence of a meaningful cause, the only cause being getting a few crumbles of b..dy foreigners money while it lasts? Surely that's a part of it, and those frontline fighters know it, by heart if not in the mind, that behind them, there's nothing and no one to defend.

And so then they say "it's potatoes, can't fight on eternal fries" they mean something else: no cause. An army, and society with no cause will not survive an existential challenge. West got it all wrong: the point was not building an army. The point was finding the cause; or getting out of there asap if it could not be found.

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It's astounding though the new depth of hypocrisy shown by some ostensibly democratic politicians. Mitch McConnell for example blamed Biden (I'm not particular fan of) for Afghan disaster just as his own president signed the agreement with Taliban in February 2020 to pull American troops out by May this year (today is August). Is there really no boundaries, forget decency just common sense and memory, and rational thinking? It appears no, we may be way past that point. Hear the drums, forget everything, ignore anything and march to the new muzak of the new day.

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2 hours ago, myata said:

There was a story I read about Afghan army commandos complaining about supplies shortly before surrender to Taliban. That's very indicative, can a country, ostensibly democracy fall over a bag of bad potatoes or it's only a symptom of something else?

Do we have experts of warfare here or what? Did you know that humans need food?

 

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Even the American taxpayer's pocket isn't bottomless and they just cant afford to keep this futile war going on. It was always clear that as soon as the Americans leave the puppet-government would fall. 

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Unlike neighboring islamic countries, Afghanistan has a large portion of fanatical extremist muslims. Democracy and fanatical islam are at odds. You can't establish and maintain a democracy in such society. Remember how islam was spread? By force of military invasion from Arabia, by sword. And this is a historic fact.

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10 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Unlike neighboring islamic countries, Afghanistan has a large portion of fanatical extremist muslims. Democracy and fanatical islam are at odds. You can't establish and maintain a democracy in such society. Remember how islam was spread? By force of military invasion from Arabia, by sword. And this is a historic fact.

Your type of democracy is at odds with Islam. We view it as your flaw.

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27 minutes ago, Savannahleaf said:

Your type of democracy is at odds with Islam. We view it as your flaw.

And what is my type of democracy? And who the hell is we? Are you a Taliban spoke person?

Invading neighboring nations forcing them by sword or machine guns to accept your beliefs is your type of democracy or treating half the population (women and girls) as slaves or second class citizens and depriving them of education and monitory independence and forcing them into child bribes is your type of democracy? Or lashing people and forcing them to grow beard or complete and total religious dictatorship is your type of democracy?

Edited by CITIZEN_2015
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1 hour ago, Savannahleaf said:

The Canadian and American type of democracy. Or is there some other type you prefer? Whatever someone like you prefers is probably at odds with Islam.

This is the only type of democracy that exists. Candidates present their platform and we elect them based on our like and dislike and the one getting most of the votes will form the government and hopefully implement promises made during campaign. We respect our women and girls and our constitution guarantees their equal rights and freedom. In fact our Charter guarantees everyone's rights and freedom.  

We don't force anyone what to eat or not to eat what to drink or not to drink, what to wear or not to wear, we don't lash people for disobedience and we don't impose our values upon others by force of invasion or sword. 

You again evaded to define what is YOUR type of democracy.

Edited by CITIZEN_2015
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