Vaccine passports

[myata]

As heard on the radio this morning the idea will be implemented in Quebec and is being considered in Ontario. I'm not a medical expert so not advising anyone to vaccinate or otherwise, but the idea of another restriction on individual freedoms on ad hoc basis, out of thin air and without serious discussion in the society and analysis from different perspectives, frightens me. We still don't have many answers and two decades belated apology may not be good enough for everyone.

Is passportization going to improve epidemiological situation (rationale? evidence?) or is it a quick knee-jerk reaction with unknown and potentially far-reaching consequences if adopted as standard practice?

How long immunization effect lasts and how long will passports be in place? Could the practice be extended, potentially indefinitely?

Or is a way to coerce more citizens into vaccinating? Is it a responsible approach, given though small but real and confirmed potential side effects for an individual? Are those proposing it certain that there's no other effective ways? And have they tried them and proven it?

On the balance of considerations, in the society of passive and uninvolved citizens easily frightened by omnipresent propaganda, overconfident and under-competent bureaucracy (travel from Wuhan) lacking any effective mechanisms of accountability and oversight, any formal restriction on individual freedoms in my view would not be a good idea.

[RedDog]

I’m thinking this was bound to happen. I’m of the opinion we’ve thrown the doors open way too soon at our own peril so this was inevitable.

If X percent of the public absolutely refuses the vaccine over some perceived “rights” issue in their head, then the majority will have to refuse them admission to private property.

The health and safety of the public trumps rights. One doesn’t have the right to drink and drive or smoke in public. Consequently, one doesn’t have the right to put others at risk of exposure to an international pandemic. Simply exclude the unvaccinated from the party and keep them at home away from me. Voila. That was easy.

[myata]

That was not the question though. The question is, as in any democracy, where are the boundaries of "health and safety" vs. individual freedoms, who draws them and how, what checks, controls and oversight from the society exist over these processes and measures. That is really the question that separates democracy from a dictatorship because both can have, and very valid ones (to them) "health and safety" justifications.

[CITIZEN_2015]

56 minutes ago, myata said:

That was not the question though. The question is, as in any democracy, where are the boundaries of "health and safety" vs. individual freedoms, who draws them and how, what checks, controls and oversight from the society exist over these processes and measures. That is really the question that separates democracy from a dictatorship because both can have, and very valid ones (to them) "health and safety" justifications.

I have told you this before. Democracy does not mean you can do anything you want and demand the rights you don't have. In any democracy there are boundaries and red lines. Red lines are crossed when there is a risk that other innocent bystanders may be harmed.

Examples:

Free speech - red lines crossed when speech provokes others to attack or harm certain group of people.

Drunk driving - You have the right to drink but you don't have the right to drive when drunk because you pose a risk to others.

Smoking in public - You have the right to smoke but not in public as it poses health risks to others

Unvaccinated - You have the right to not vaccinate but you can't go to public places and restrictions should be put on you as all scientific evidence and data point to the fact that unvaccinated people pose a greater risk of transmission of disease also overwhelming majority of hospitalizations and deaths are among them so causing lockdowns and economic meltdowns again. So we need passports to identify who is vaccinated and should or should not have restrictions in order to protect the public.

Edited August 11, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Boges]

Thread about this already. 

[Boges]

2 hours ago, myata said:

As heard on the radio this morning the idea will be implemented in Quebec and is being considered in Ontario. I'm not a medical expert so not advising anyone to vaccinate or otherwise, but the idea of another restriction on individual freedoms on ad hoc basis, out of thin air and without serious discussion in the society and analysis from different perspectives, frightens me. We still don't have many answers and two decades belated apology may not be good enough for everyone.

Is passportization going to improve epidemiological situation (rationale? evidence?) or is it a quick knee-jerk reaction with unknown and potentially far-reaching consequences if adopted as standard practice?

How long immunization effect lasts and how long will passports be in place? Could the practice be extended, potentially indefinitely?

Or is a way to coerce more citizens into vaccinating? Is it a responsible approach, given though small but real and confirmed potential side effects for an individual? Are those proposing it certain that there's no other effective ways? And have they tried them and proven it?

On the balance of considerations, in the society of passive and uninvolved citizens easily frightened by omnipresent propaganda, overconfident and under-competent bureaucracy (travel from Wuhan) lacking any effective mechanisms of accountability and oversight, any formal restriction on individual freedoms in my view would not be a good idea.

Quebec is being pro-active on this. 

Unlike Ontario, who is going to wait until things get dire, like they did in the Spring regarding vaccine distribution. 

I'm hopeful that 2/3 full vaccination rate is enough to keep hospitalization low, but if now, we'll have to curb freedoms again. 

But why should people that did their duty and got vaccinated be treated the same as an Anti-Vaxxer in this scenario? We're not going to be able to shut down business and tell people to stay at home again. 

Vaccine verification is the only solution. BTW it's not a new thing. 

[myata]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I have told you this before.

There can be dangerous and irresponsible actions performed by fully vaccinated people while someone who cannot be vaccinated for example due to medical conditions, may exercise all precautions. Vaccination is not an obvious indication of the infection risk and serious, reviewed studies need to be performed and discussed to understand the association. Even more concerning, a part of the population seem to be ready to support all sorts of limitations and restrictions on personal freedoms without much evidence based only on fear. With 70% of the population vaccinated and cases at low level why mandatory policies like masking continue? Who decides why and for how long, based on what considerations, and with what accountability and oversight to prevent wrong, or unjustified decisions?

Outside of the initial emergency phase of the pandemic I do not accept the absolute right of any authority to dictate unilaterally, without accountability and oversight limitations of personal rights for whatever reasons. And we seem to be on the path right there, who said when the measures and restrictions will be lifted, what clear conditions and explanations?

This is a direct, broad path to authoritarianism. And some of us seem to have already arrived. And it didn't even take much and we have all the effects of climate change ahead of us. A glimpse into the future to come, and how would we have known?

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, RedDog said:

I’m thinking this was bound to happen. I’m of the opinion we’ve thrown the doors open way too soon at our own peril so this was inevitable.

If X percent of the public absolutely refuses the vaccine over some perceived “rights” issue in their head, then the majority will have to refuse them admission to private property.

The health and safety of the public trumps rights. One doesn’t have the right to drink and drive or smoke in public. Consequently, one doesn’t have the right to put others at risk of exposure to an international pandemic. Simply exclude the unvaccinated from the party and keep them at home away from me. Voila. That was easy.

But there’s a big difference between drinking and driving and the Covid situation.  If I allow a non-vaccinated person into my restaurant, the risk is to the non-vaccinated person not the vaccinated patrons.  Most eligible people are vaccinated.  Most patrons of businesses are vaccinated.  I don’t see the value in requiring vaccine passports except as a way to make unvaccinated people wear masks or stay away.  No thanks.  I think it should be up to individuals at this point to protect themselves.  The only exception perhaps is children in schools who are too young to get vaccinated and may be too young to know what’s in their interests.  

Edited August 11, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, myata said:

There can be dangerous and irresponsible actions performed by fully vaccinated people while someone who cannot be vaccinated for example due to medical conditions, may exercise all precautions. Vaccination is not an obvious indication of the infection risk and serious, reviewed studies need to be performed and discussed to understand the association. Even more concerning, a part of the population seem to be ready to support all sorts of limitations and restrictions on personal freedoms without much evidence based only on fear. With 70% of the population vaccinated and cases at low level why mandatory policies like masking continue? Who decides why and for how long, based on what considerations, and with what accountability and oversight to prevent wrong, or unjustified decisions?

Outside of the initial emergency phase of the pandemic I do not accept the absolute right of any authority to dictate unilaterally, without accountability and oversight limitations of personal rights for whatever reasons. And we seem to be on the path right there, who said when the measures and restrictions will be lifted, what clear conditions and explanations?

This is a direct, broad path to authoritarianism. And some of us seem to have already arrived. And it didn't even take much and we have all the effects of climate change ahead of us. A glimpse into the future to come, and how would we have known?

You’re right.  You can see though how many people out there, including on this forum, are afraid of personal responsibility.  Some people like watching others be forced to protect themselves.  It’s the mentality that says, it isn’t enough for me to follow my own best judgment, you need to follow it too, even if your decision on the matter doesn’t really impact me.

When we overreach with restrictions and requirements, we step into the territory of arbitrariness, of, Do it because I say so or think it’s right.  We’re getting used to an unprecedented level of control that will ultimately make people feel powerless and unable to follow their own conscience and make informed decisions.  Unless there’s a clear and powerful reason for control, laissez-faire should always be the default.

[CITIZEN_2015]

32 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 If I allow a non-vaccinated person into my restaurant, the risk is to the non-vaccinated person not the vaccinated patrons.  

This is not true.  Latest data show 20% of recent hospitalizations in Ontario are fully vaccinated people. We all knew from beginning no vaccine will give 100% efficacy and covid vaccines are no different. While they give good protection and may help to provide herd immunity if a very large portion of population is vaccinated and significantly reduce the risk of serious sickness or death but they don't eliminated it no vaccine does. Please get the facts before judgements.

Edited August 11, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

This is not true.  Latest data show 20% of recent hospitalizations in Ontario are fully vaccinated people. We all knew from beginning no vaccine will give 100% efficacy and covid vaccines are no different. While they give good protection and may help to provide herd immunity if a very large portion of population is vaccinated and significantly reduce the risk of serious sickness or death but they don't eliminated it no vaccine does. Please get the facts before judgements.

But the level of risk to vaccinated is relatively low.  I assume that Covid is all around me all the time and I assume that most people will get it, possibly multiple times over decades.  What matters is level of resistance.  According to CBC News, which is unabashed pro-restriction: 

“Just a tiny portion of cases — 0.5 per cent — have been reported among people who've been fully vaccinated, with a similar breakdown for hospitalizations and deaths in the same time period.”

It goes on to say that if you are vaccinated and get Covid-19, you’re 70% less likely to be hospitalized and half as likely to die of Covid, which puts vaccinated people at a statistically insignificant level of risk of death or serious illness from COVID-19.  The risk is for the unvaccinated.  

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

But the level of risk to vaccinated is relatively low.  I assume that Covid is all around me all the time and I assume that most people will get it, possibly multiple times over decades.  What matters is level of resistance.  According to CBC News, which is unabashed pro-restriction: 

“Just a tiny portion of cases — 0.5 per cent — have been reported among people who've been fully vaccinated, with a similar breakdown for hospitalizations and deaths in the same time period.”

It goes on to say that if you are vaccinated and get Covid-19, you’re 70% less likely to be hospitalized and half as likely to die of Covid, which puts vaccinated people at a statistically insignificant level of risk of death or serious illness from COVID-19.  Half of one percent of all recorded Covid cases are among the vaccinated, and of that half percent, there is a 70 % lower risk of hospitalization.  The risk is for the unvaccinated.  

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

 

“Just a tiny portion of cases — 0.5 per cent — have been reported among people who've been fully vaccinated, with a similar breakdown for hospitalizations and deaths in the same time period.”

 

Again please get all the facts before making such definite statements or making judgements. 

Not true again. This is the latest statistics from Ontario out today on new infections today

The Ontario government says 234 of Wednesday's 324 new cases, or 72 per cent, were in unvaccinated individuals. 

There were 32 cases in partially vaccinated individuals and 58 in people who were fully vaccinated. This is over 20% infections among fully vaccinated people. As I mentioned earlier also 20% of hospitalizations among fully vaccinated people.

Note that we are now dealing with Delta variant spreading fast especially among unvaccinated people. Vaccines are not anymore 96% effective but much less.

[myata]

3 hours ago, Boges said:

... we'll have to curb freedoms again.

Seriously? Our freedoms have been curbed already, and we haven't even noticed? Why do we have mandatory masks if the risks to vaccinated are extremely low and infection levels minimal? For how much longer we will have them curbed?

Who will decide that? How? Based on what evidence? Under what would be checks, controls and accountability?

Every piece of propaganda hammers covid, covid covid, risk risk risk but there are important questions here:

1. What is the level of risk, based on what evidence and how does it compare to other risks in our lives?

2. Who decides measures based on risk assessment, specifically, blank and uniform measures, how these decisions are justified, questioned and reviewed?

Without these answers we could sail very easily all the way to authoritarian society where the authority would dictate mandatory measures of the day, with no accountability or control. And we're already some way into it, like who has explained and shown responsibility for "travel from Wuhan", could it be same people dictating orders and mandatory policies?

[myata]

5 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Note that we are now dealing with Delta variant spreading fast especially among unvaccinated people. Vaccines are not anymore 96% effective but much less.

If you want to make scary conclusions from statistics please navigate to "In ICU due to Covid-19" section in Ontario Covid-19 vaccination data. That's why we need a serious and responsible public discussion, and not scare, scare, scare just do something then we'll think.

[Zeitgeist]

20 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Again please get all the facts before making such definite statements or making judgements. 

Not true again. This is the latest statistics from Ontario out today on new infections today

The Ontario government says 234 of Wednesday's 324 new cases, or 72 per cent, were in unvaccinated individuals. 

There were 32 cases in partially vaccinated individuals and 58 in people who were fully vaccinated. This is over 20% infections among fully vaccinated people. As I mentioned earlier also 20% of hospitalizations among fully vaccinated people.

Note that we are now dealing with Delta variant spreading fast especially among unvaccinated people. Vaccines are not anymore 96% effective but much less.

You’re mentioning a single data point.  The CBC article is citing data across time in multiple jurisdictions.  It doesn’t really matter to me though.  You’re missing the point, which is that with most eligible Ontarians having been vaccinated, the risk of most Ontarians getting serious illness is very reduced.  Yes the under 12’s are unvaccinated and at greater risk than the vaccinated, but young children are much better able to fight the virus than adults, even with the faster spreading Delta.  Covid will remain with us.  The question of what level of infection is required for herd immunity will remain open.  What’s for certain is that as most of the population is vaccinated, universal restrictions become over the top and unnecessary.  The focus must be encouraging vaccination and protecting those who can’t get the jab.  Unvaccinated adults can make those decisions themselves.  We’ll continue masking for unvaccinated children, in elementary school, for example.  That’s all that’s needed.  There will be a spike in cases as we completely reopen, but that shouldn’t overwhelm our health care system.  The bigger threat now is continuing restrictions, the psychological damage of lockdowns, the collapse of businesses, and the untreated non-Covid health issues.  We simply must return to normalcy before we forget how and accept restrictions as permanent fixtures in a teetering liberal-democracy.  

Edited August 11, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[CITIZEN_2015]

13 minutes ago, myata said:

If you want to make scary conclusions from statistics please navigate to "In ICU due to Covid-19" section in Ontario Covid-19 vaccination data. That's why we need a serious and responsible public discussion, and not scare, scare, scare just do something then we'll think.

Your link echoes exactly what I said earlier!!!!!!!!!!!! That is being fully vaccinated does not provide solid protection anymore!!!!!

Edited August 11, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[myata]

1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Your link echoes exactly what I said earlier!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is also a single data point and if you take it as decisive evidence then you'll have to conclude that vaccines have no effect and then why mandatory vaccinations???

[CITIZEN_2015]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

It is also a single data point and if you take it as decisive evidence then you'll have to conclude that vaccines have no effect and then why mandatory vaccinations???

I am not sure how good (or bad) you are with simple arithmetic but if you look at the data and previous collective data from all over the world you can easily see vaccines are very effective in preventing sickness, hospitalizations and death just not 100% or 96% effective.

[Boges]

24 minutes ago, myata said:

Without these answers we could sail very easily all the way to authoritarian society where the authority would dictate mandatory measures of the day, with no accountability or control. And we're already some way into it, like who has explained and shown responsibility for "travel from Wuhan", could it be same people dictating orders and mandatory policies?

You not pay attention to what's happening in certain US states? COVID is back there, because of low vaccination rates. 

We elect politicians to do things like public health. People who actually study and understand this are advising them. 

Don't like how DoFo is handling this? vote him out next time, but trust me, the NDP and Liberals would have gone much farther. 

Quote

 

1. What is the level of risk, based on what evidence and how does it compare to other risks in our lives?

2. Who decides measures based on risk assessment, specifically, blank and uniform measures, how these decisions are justified, questioned and reviewed?

 

Public Health officials are doing this all the time. Studying the numbers and understanding the risks. What's wrong with the world today is that people on the internet think they know better than people who have spent their life studying how contagious diseases work. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

42 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 

“Just a tiny portion of cases — 0.5 per cent — have been reported among people who've been fully vaccinated, with a similar breakdown for hospitalizations and deaths in the same time period.”

 

The reason I clarified this in my previous post is that because of this I decided to go to a crowded bar last weekend thinking that I have to be very unlucky and 0.5% won't be me now today I found out latest data shows over 20%!!. Now I have to wait two weeks to find out if I got something from Saturday night time.

Edited August 11, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[myata]

2 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I am not sure how good (or bad) you are with simple arithmetic but if you look at the data and previous collective data from all over the world you can easily see vaccines are very effective in preventing sickness, hospitalizations and death just not 100% or 96% effective.

So you would use this information for conclusions that suit your agenda, but not for those that contradict it? That is new scientific approach these days, or only a private interpretation?

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 minute ago, myata said:

So you would use this information for conclusions that suit your agenda, but not for those that contradict it? That is new scientific approach these days, or only a private interpretation?

No the figures I stated in my previous post was in your link!!!!!

[myata]

19 minutes ago, Boges said:

Public Health officials are doing this all the time. Studying the numbers and understanding the risks. What's wrong with the world today is that people on the internet think they know better than people who have spent their life studying how contagious diseases work. 

You elected PHO seriously, when was it last time? And in case of you were wondering, electing does not make a democracy, emperors and czars were elected too. Hint: checks and balances, citizens oversight, accountability can be closer.

Edited August 11, 2021 by myata

[Boges]

3 minutes ago, myata said:

You elected PHO seriously, when was it last time? And in case of you were wondering, electing does not make a democracy, emperors and czars were elected too. Hint: checks and balances, citizens oversight, accountability can be closer.

So what system do you propose? 

Just answering your questions. Politicians are listening to doctors. And Internet warriors are upset because they don't agree with their findings. 

Right now, short of masking and travel, life seems pretty normal. 

And I think anyone who thinks masking is an overbearing a front to their Liberty is a moron. Sure it's annoying, but it's a mere inconvenience. People have literally ruined their lives being filmed having temper tantrums over masking.