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Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.


Boges

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3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Wood and electric 50/50 here. About 4 full cords a year. Last years mostly came from our 2.3 acres. We cut down some alders that were getting out of hand. I've got a couple more years worth to cut still on the stump.

Sure miss the old days...just drive up to the landing where the loader operator had left a bunch of gun barrels sticking up. Practically drop the first half a load into the back of the pickup without it hitting the ground.

$350 a cord herabouts in the rainforest these days.

$350 for a face cord?ūüėĶ¬†I think it's around¬† 110-120$ here. I do plan to get a new wood stove this year, an EPA certified model which should be better than my old one. I do plan to burn more wood as propane will certainly keep going up. Governments told people back in the 70s to heat with electric baseboards and of course the cost kept going up. I had an older house with baseboard heating and in 1997 I was on equal billing to the amount of 300$ per month.

It's likely wishful thinking but I hope our leaders will do something sensible to address the coming electricity needs.(Go nuclear!)

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38 minutes ago, ironstone said:

$350 for a face cord?ūüėĶ¬†

A full cord I said.  A face cord is a stack 4'x8'x16".  A full cord is 3 times that much.

I stopped cutting and selling it when it was $150 a full cord.  I had a small dump truck and splitter and usually cut a couple cords a day during the off season.  And no it wasn't dry...I should have charged by the lb somedays. LOL!

It's probably more than three times as hard to just go cut wood as it used to be.  Thankfully...I know a guy - I'm on the wood for beer program at the local gravel pit.

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14 hours ago, ironstone said:

reports.ieso.ca/public/GenOutputCapability/PUB_GenOutputCapability.xml#

These are the various energy sources for Ontario now.

Is Boges admitting there will never be electric cars brand new in the low 20k range?

A Corolla starts at just over 21k for a base model and I would wager a cheap Corolla will run for more years than most EV's and without major repairs. If I were in the market now I might look at the hybrid Corolla which is around 27k. A Corolla is no luxury car but it's head and shoulders better than a pisspot car like a Nissan Leaf.

Speaking of the Nissan Leaf: 

According to Driving, one man named Clayton Brander is struggling to replace the battery in his 2013 Nissan Leaf. He got the Leaf as a used option in 2017, finding it very well priced. At the time, the dealership said if you need to replace the battery in the next few years, it should be about $5,000. 

But flash forward to 2020, and the man is having tons of trouble finding a battery that can be installed. The dealership is now quoting Clayton $15,000 for a new battery, which is an outrageous price to keep a vehicle from 2013 ticking.

The Nissan Leaf is probably the worst EV out there. And a 2013 to boot. Infant technology at the time. 

A lot of the issues with EVs have arose from Tesla. They're good at "innovation" but most will agree they're a rather shitty car company. All the real car companies are getting on board with new EVs they can't keep in stock. 

The Toyota Corolla is probably the lamest car there is. And even that starts at just 20k. Most car companies are getting out of that market.

You're much better off buying a better quality used ICE or Hybrid if your budget is under 20k. 

ALSO, something you haven't mentioned is that most EVs have their batteries warrantied for 8 years plus now. So it's very unlikely someone will be stuck with a $15,000 expense on a new EV. There is much less upkeep with an EV because it has way fewer moving parts and fluids. 

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24 minutes ago, Boges said:

The Nissan Leaf is probably the worst EV out there. And a 2013 to boot. Infant technology at the time. 

A lot of the issues with EVs have arose from Tesla. They're good at "innovation" but most will agree they're a rather shitty car company. All the real car companies are getting on board with new EVs they can't keep in stock. 

The Toyota Corolla is probably the lamest car there is. And even that starts at just 20k. Most car companies are getting out of that market.

You're much better off buying a better quality used ICE or Hybrid if your budget is under 20k. 

ALSO, something you haven't mentioned is that most EVs have their batteries warranties for 8 years plus now. So it's very unlikely someone will be stuck with a $15,000 expense on a new EV. There is much less upkeep with an EV because it has way fewer moving parts and fluids. 

Somewhat changing your tune? You were promoting EV quite vigorously.

As for "upkeep" of an EV, you are right, no oil or water but, still has A/C fluids, brake fluids, greases, and in some there is even coolant. Then there is the normal "upkeep" brakes, tires consumables etc. As well, they are not trouble free. And 8 years battery replacement is not a long time. People keep their cars much longer nowadays and battery packs will be much more than $15K by then..

I am not anti EV, as a matter of fact, for me, an EV is a good option as I do not drive much anymore (3 year old car and not 20K on it yet) so for the short trips we normally take, it makes sense. I would have range anxiety though because I park outside and in the winter it gets minus 20 or more and the lights on, heaters on, seat heat on, windshield defrost on and maybe even wipers on....the range must be severely diminished. Also, can it be warmed up before driving like auto start on a ICE car?

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1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

Somewhat changing your tune? You were promoting EV quite vigorously.

As for "upkeep" of an EV, you are right, no oil or water but, still has A/C fluids, brake fluids, greases, and in some there is even coolant. Then there is the normal "upkeep" brakes, tires consumables etc. As well, they are not trouble free. And 8 years battery replacement is not a long time. People keep their cars much longer nowadays and battery packs will be much more than $15K by then..

I'm just putting perspective to some of the concerns addressed. Tesla is a weird company and they are plagued with quality issues. But Purchasing an EV was the best car decision I've ever made. 

The maintenance on brakes will be lessened because of Re-Gen Braking helping out with slowing down the car. 

 

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I am not anti EV, as a matter of fact, for me, an EV is a good option as I do not drive much anymore (3 year old car and not 20K on it yet) so for the short trips we normally take, it makes sense. I would have range anxiety though because I park outside and in the winter it gets minus 20 or more and the lights on, heaters on, seat heat on, windshield defrost on and maybe even wipers on....the range must be severely diminished. Also, can it be warmed up before driving like auto start on a ICE car?

They aren't for everyone. If you like Road Trips or drive more than 200kms a day maybe hold off. There are still options that will reduce emissions (Hybrids and PHEVs) I still need a backup ICE car, though that's a Hybrid. I concede my privilege of having a garage and a dual income family where two cars are an option. 

EVs aren't ready for primetime, but they're getting there. And just about every Car-maker is moving into that space. Innovation will follow. Battery tech will continue to improve and the grid will have to follow. 

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23 minutes ago, Boges said:

I'm just putting perspective to some of the concerns addressed. Tesla is a weird company and they are plagued with quality issues. But Purchasing an EV was the best car decision I've ever made. 

The maintenance on brakes will be lessened because of Re-Gen Braking helping out with slowing down the car. 

 

They aren't for everyone. If you like Road Trips or drive more than 200kms a day maybe hold off. There are still options that will reduce emissions (Hybrids and PHEVs) I still need a backup ICE car, though that's a Hybrid. I concede my privilege of having a garage and a dual income family where two cars are an option. 

EVs aren't ready for primetime, but they're getting there. And just about every Car-maker is moving into that space. Innovation will follow. Battery tech will continue to improve and the grid will have to follow. 

So, in your very first post you suggested "DoFo should recognize where the Global winds are blowing. Invest in EV infrastructure an incentivize car-buyers to buy an EV as their next car. " You seem to be tempering that a bit now.

While EV is one of the paths for the future of personal transportation, it is a long way off. Long way off primarily because the infrastructure is even father off, it is not even planned yet. In Ontario alone the plan is for an extra 1.5 million homes and no infrastructure increase. You want electricity for the homes or the EV's?

Yes, car builders are moving in the EV direction now but, is it sustainable or is it just one of those jumping on a bandwagon things because they don't want to be chastised for not trying (and because they never copy each other LOL) ?

 

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20 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

So, in your very first post you suggested "DoFo should recognize where the Global winds are blowing. Invest in EV infrastructure an incentivize car-buyers to buy an EV as their next car. " You seem to be tempering that a bit now.

Well he's already done that by investing in putting Chargers at OnRoute sites and Making Ring of Fire mining a priority. 

I'm not sure about the rebate. There's a 5k Federal rebate. I think that's already fair. The price of an EV has come down in recent years. 

 

Quote

While EV is one of the paths for the future of personal transportation, it is a long way off. Long way off primarily because the infrastructure is even father off, it is not even planned yet. In Ontario alone the plan is for an extra 1.5 million homes and no infrastructure increase. You want electricity for the homes or the EV's?

I will tell you, from personal experience, that having an EV for charging purposes hasn't greatly added to my electricity usage. It's obviously higher, but not exponentially higher. It's comparable to running an AC. 

 

Quote

Yes, car builders are moving in the EV direction now but, is it sustainable or is it just one of those jumping on a bandwagon things because they don't want to be chastised for not trying (and because they never copy each other LOL) ?

Well that's the role of government. They're making it a priority. Europe and Asia are way ahead of us on this. 

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9 hours ago, Boges said:

The Nissan Leaf is probably the worst EV out there. And a 2013 to boot. Infant technology at the time. 

A lot of the issues with EVs have arose from Tesla. They're good at "innovation" but most will agree they're a rather shitty car company. All the real car companies are getting on board with new EVs they can't keep in stock. 

The Toyota Corolla is probably the lamest car there is. And even that starts at just 20k. Most car companies are getting out of that market.

You're much better off buying a better quality used ICE or Hybrid if your budget is under 20k. 

ALSO, something you haven't mentioned is that most EVs have their batteries warrantied for 8 years plus now. So it's very unlikely someone will be stuck with a $15,000 expense on a new EV. There is much less upkeep with an EV because it has way fewer moving parts and fluids. 

I had a "lame" 2003 Corolla that gave me 532,000km before it went to the Kidney Car Foundation and the engine was still running great. I suspect there aren't too many EV's around that have lasted that long with the same batteries. I'm talking about pure EV's and not hybrids which I believe most are pretty durable.

I recall reading about Tesla reliability in a Consumer Reports issue and they're not rated that great although the owners apparently love them, perhaps mostly for the virtue signaling value.

Who knows? I'll probably have no choice but to get an EV eventually. I don't know whether I'll retire this year or not but I would feel pretty safe if I only have to go short distances a few times a week.

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19 hours ago, Boges said:

Well he's already done that by investing in putting Chargers at OnRoute sites and Making Ring of Fire mining a priority. 

I'm not sure about the rebate. There's a 5k Federal rebate. I think that's already fair. The price of an EV has come down in recent years. 

 

I will tell you, from personal experience, that having an EV for charging purposes hasn't greatly added to my electricity usage. It's obviously higher, but not exponentially higher. It's comparable to running an AC. 

 

Well that's the role of government. They're making it a priority. Europe and Asia are way ahead of us on this. 

A very very interesting study on "green" "sustainable" energy

41 Inconvenient Truths on the "New Energy Economy"

https://fee.org/articles/41-inconvenient-truths-on-the-new-energy-economy/

Edited by ExFlyer
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13 hours ago, ironstone said:

I recall reading about Tesla reliability in a Consumer Reports issue and they're not rated that great although the owners apparently love them, perhaps mostly for the virtue signaling value.

Who knows? I'll probably have no choice but to get an EV eventually. I don't know whether I'll retire this year or not but I would feel pretty safe if I only have to go short distances a few times a week.

They're really fast cars with a lot of cool tech. They look cool too. 

But Tesla isn't a buttoned down car company. You can't take them to get serviced, they want to send someone out to you. 

They also haven't allowed for 3rd party parts manufacturing. 

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31 minutes ago, Boges said:

They're really fast cars with a lot of cool tech. They look cool too. 

But Tesla isn't a buttoned down car company. You can't take them to get serviced, they want to send someone out to you. 

They also haven't allowed for 3rd party parts manufacturing. 

"Third party" manufacturers do not ask for permission. They only get into making parts if there is a market.

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3 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

"Third party" manufacturers do not ask for permission. They only get into making parts if there is a market.

I'm not here to Shill for Tesla. 

The other issues with EV Service is that the infrastructure of service shops have no ability to actually service them, because they don't know how.

Which will be a good thing for carmakers that already have a dealership network with Service Centres.

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Oh for God's sakes were still whining the same songs as 15 years ago.

I can't drive my car all the way to Disneyland on one charge!

There's no charging infrastructure!

What about the children? The evil mining companies wah wah!

You don't drive to Disneyland in your EV. You so broke-ass you don't own a 2nd car? You use the EV to get to work, go shopping, take the kids to school.

Did you know when cars were a new thing you had to buy gas in gallon cans at the Drug Store? You think they won't build charging stations ever? Soon as they figure out how to make you pay and how to conspire and fix prices amongst themselves, they'll be everywhere.

And how many people have the oil companies blown to ratshit to get their oil?

And the same bullshit goes for fuel cells. The most abundant element in the universe is 'too expensive' to refine for fuel cells, in themselves are "still 15 years away" even though they used them to get to the Moon over 50 years ago.

And Elon Musk might be an asshole, just like Henry Ford, but both of them were the guys who put their money where their mouth is and delivered cars to the masses!

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So I've read most of this thread and this is what I think.

EVs are definitely cool, but they should not be pushed upon the public as some great saviour of mankind. There are posts here talking about the Alberta Tar Sands. An asinine argument if there ever was one.

If I go on a trip...anywhere...and find I need fuel, I want a gas powered car because I can refuel it in 3 minutes. Not 30 minutes. If I need a new car, I'll buy what's not gonna cost me a down payment on a new house.

As I said...EVs are definitely cool. And one day soon...I hope...the charging process will be convenient. Today though, the technology and facilities are not there.

The same goes for this insane push to replace the existing power grid with "green energy". I hope that the technology will make that possible soon, but it is not there today.

The long and the sort of this...rather immature argument...is that a wise man does not throw out his old shoes, before he has a new pair.

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On 3/28/2022 at 10:35 AM, Nationalist said:

The long and the sort of this...rather immature argument...is that a wise man does not throw out his old shoes, before he has a new pair.

With the volatility in gas prices, anyone who made the decision to get an EV likely thinks they made a good choice. 

Charging infrastructure needs to improve for EVs to reach parity with what an ICE can offer for long distance travel. 

Most people don't use their vehicles for long distance travel. Most EV owners do their charging at home on the existing grid. 

One can still reduce their reliance on Gas by getting a Hybrid or even a PHEV that doesn't require high voltage charging. 

We're in a very transitional period. But almost all the "Cool" new cars coming out are EVs. 

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4 hours ago, Boges said:

With the volatility in gas prices, anyone who made the decision to get an EV likely thinks they made a good choice. 

Charging infrastructure needs to improve for EVs to reach parity with what an ICE can offer for long distance travel. 

Most people don't use their vehicles for long distance travel. Most EV owners do their charging at home on the existing grid. 

One can still reduce their reliance on Gas by getting a Hybrid or even a PHEV that doesn't require high voltage charging. 

We're in a very transitional period. But almost all the "Cool" new cars coming out are EVs. 

1. That remains to be seen

2. That remains to be seen

3. Yes and I hope our existing grid can handle all the additional load. I also think that buying a car that limits your range of travel is stupid.

4. Why on Earth would I want to reduce my reliance on Gas? When the EV market matures and is reasonable...come talk to me.

5. Transitional? Sort of like this recession and all the inflation is "transitional"? Your transition is costing money for everyone. Look...if YOU want an EV and YOU want to try to reduce your carbon footie-print...go for it. But until we have the technology to realistically replace our cars and entire power grid with "green energy" (as if such a thing actually will ever exist), please stop promoting this "transitional period" as something good. IT IS NOT!

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My boss has a Tesla Model S which I believe is a 2016 model year. He loves the fact that it's super quick and cost's way less to drive monthly than his Ram truck. It has around 100,000km on it which isn't really high mileage for any modern car. He just noticed a strange sound coming from the car recently. He was told it's a drivetrain issue and it will be $20,000 to repair the problem. I'm guessing Tesla will be replacing some major components.  He's very fortunate that his car is just barely within the warranty period and the cost will be covered. I would hope this wouldn't be a normal thing to expect every 100,000km.

My $21,000 2016 has 160,000km with one minor recall, a parking brake issue.

I hope the EV's will eventually match the long term reliability of the best ICE cars of today.

Last and certainly not least, not everyone has the means to just run out and buy an EV. Used cars are a bit of a gamble depending on where they are bought.  Some people trade cars often while many do not. I tend to keep my cars a long time. I'm close to 60 and have owned only 7 vehicles in my lifetime.

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I finally do see some encouraging news on the nuclear front. But it will be a ways off yet with the first one set to be completed in 2028.

Ontario, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick and Alberta agree on plan to build small nuclear reactors | Financial Post

Abundant energy is great and if it's affordable, even better. 

 

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16 hours ago, Nationalist said:

3. Yes and I hope our existing grid can handle all the additional load. I also think that buying a car that limits your range of travel is stupid.

You charge at night during low usage where baseload is being generated. I mentioned earlier that my EV uses as much as my AC. Is it really reasonable to fret about AC usage in the summer? 

And it's not stupid if, you have another car because you're in a family with 2 cars. You would have made the cost-benefit analysis already. This car gets me to work and back every day and meets my recreational needs. And for those few times you do make a road trip that exceeds the range. You have to plan. . . or use your other car. 

 

Quote

4. Why on Earth would I want to reduce my reliance on Gas? When the EV market matures and is reasonable...come talk to me.

The volatility of the price. Hydro rates don't fluctuate nearly as much. AND Carbon Taxes aren't going away. That will keep adding to the price of Gas. That's the primary reason for switching. 

Quote

5. Transitional? Sort of like this recession and all the inflation is "transitional"? Your transition is costing money for everyone. Look...if YOU want an EV and YOU want to try to reduce your carbon footie-print...go for it. But until we have the technology to realistically replace our cars and entire power grid with "green energy" (as if such a thing actually will ever exist), please stop promoting this "transitional period" as something good. IT IS NOT!

No Transitional like LNG. It's better than Coal, but not clean like Nuclear and Solar or Wind. 

The transitional period is already here. Countries have pledged to stop new ICE cars being sold in the relatively near future. Car companies have pledged to only offer electrified cars. People who oppose such measures are being left behind. And will continue to bitch about gas prices while buying wildly inefficient cars. 

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1 hour ago, Boges said:

You charge at night during low usage where baseload is being generated. I mentioned earlier that my EV uses as much as my AC. Is it really reasonable to fret about AC usage in the summer? 

And it's not stupid if, you have another car because you're in a family with 2 cars. You would have made the cost-benefit analysis already. This car gets me to work and back every day and meets my recreational needs. And for those few times you do make a road trip that exceeds the range. You have to plan. . . or use your other car. 

 

The volatility of the price. Hydro rates don't fluctuate nearly as much. AND Carbon Taxes aren't going away. That will keep adding to the price of Gas. That's the primary reason for switching. 

No Transitional like LNG. It's better than Coal, but not clean like Nuclear and Solar or Wind. 

The transitional period is already here. Countries have pledged to stop new ICE cars being sold in the relatively near future. Car companies have pledged to only offer electrified cars. People who oppose such measures are being left behind. And will continue to bitch about gas prices while buying wildly inefficient cars. 

Keep a second car that's gas powered...for trips? LOL...ya...right.

As I've said...I'm not against EVs, or any of the Greenie ideas being EXPLORED. But when said Greenies IMPOSE their horse shit on the world BEFORE a reasonable and functional alternative is available...they can go to hell. What's going on now is sheer stupidity and its adding to the mountain of problems we already have.

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1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Keep a second car that's gas powered...for trips? LOL...ya...right.

No, my wife uses it for trips around town. And it's a larger car so it can be used for more comfortable rides. 

Quote

As I've said...I'm not against EVs, or any of the Greenie ideas being EXPLORED. But when said Greenies IMPOSE their horse shit on the world BEFORE a reasonable and functional alternative is available...they can go to hell. What's going on now is sheer stupidity and its adding to the mountain of problems we already have.

Who's imposing EVs on people? 

Governments are incentivizing EV usage. Which is well within their purview. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

It is going to be quite some time before electric cars become more affordable according to Mercedes.

EVs Are Not Close to Being as Cheap as Gas Cars, Mercedes Says (popularmechanics.com)

This is going to be a very rough year. Governments are happy about skyrocketing gas prices so there is little we can do except wait till election day.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here's another interesting article about EV's bringing into question some of the claims about just how green EV cars actually are.

Motor Mouth: European safety agency says EVs not as green as promised | Driving

I'm not convinced that our leaders are giving this enough thought and are more caught up in the overhype of EV's.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/7/2022 at 3:04 PM, ironstone said:

Here's another interesting article about EV's bringing into question some of the claims about just how green EV cars actually are.

Motor Mouth: European safety agency says EVs not as green as promised | Driving

I'm not convinced that our leaders are giving this enough thought and are more caught up in the overhype of EV's.

I'd like to know if those emissions estimates included the emissions it took to produce, refine and transport gasoline to a local Gas Station vs Electricity, that would have been produced anyway, appearing at my home. 

The math does not back up the theory that EVs aren't all that good at reducing emissions. Some EVs are very inefficient, but still compared to their ICE alternative, they are. 

In the Article he compared and EV Pick-Up truck to an ICE Mid-Size Sedan. That's an Apples to Oranges comparison. If you could afford a Ford Lighting, You're not going opt for a Camry to reduce emissions. You'd get a Tesla or a Hyundai. 

The math is simple on this. Google says a Litre of Gasoline is worth around 9 kwH of Energy. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+kwh+is+a+liter+of+gas&sxsrf=ALiCzsY134oMzk5nKZfWEBJC_L4t8hYHKA%3A1652705551273&ei=D0mCYpevEKiA9PwPx8STmAs&ved=0ahUKEwjX8rT6h-T3AhUoAJ0JHUfiBLMQ4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=how+much+kwh+is+a+liter+of+gas&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsANKBAhBGABKBAhGGABQ_ANYsQZgygpoAXABeACAAVSIAagBkgEBMpgBAKABAcgBCMABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

At Best an ICE does 6L/100kms in Fuel efficiency. Find a better one that's not a Hybrid. 

Most EV's have can easily accomplish under 20kw/100kms. Which, if you took that same Petrol you're using for your ICE, and put it in a Generator to charge your car, it would come out to under 2-3L/100kms

And that's completely aside from the fact that the price of a KwH from home Grids are around 10-20 cents. Meaning a significant savings, even with more reasonable gas prices. 

 

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