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Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.


Boges

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16 minutes ago, Boges said:

That Teslas are the most environmentally unfriendly way to drive a car. 

I know this keeps coming back to the metals required to make a battery. 

I would point three things out. 

1) No one complains about the ethnical and environmental concerns about the Lithium Ion batteries in all their other devices. Why don't we advocate for Cell Phones that use traditional AA batteries? 

2) When someone tries to quantify the emissions required to build an EV, they don't also include the emissions required to mine, refine, and transport the gasoline an ICE requires during its entire lifetime. It's not just the emissions from the car, it's the emissions of the Gasoline industry as well. Transporting gasoline to your local gas station is a wildly inefficient business. With the EV it comes straight to your home through existing power lines. 

3) No one critical of EVs seems to grasp how exponentially more efficient an EV is with energy than an ICE. 60 litres of gasoline could produce so much electricity, but we are bound by these ancient ICE engines that have basically reached the peak of their efficiency. 

You could buy a Generator, and buy gas for that Generator to charge your EV and you'd still be more efficient. 

Boges...as I've said...many times now...when the cost, tech and infrastructure are there, I'll consider an EV. Until then...no.

Now...explain to me why a government should use my tax dollars to build EV charging stations. Did they fund gas stations originally?

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Just now, Nationalist said:

Boges...as I've said...many times now...when the cost, tech and infrastructure are there, I'll consider an EV. Until then...no.

Now...explain to me why a government should use my tax dollars to build EV charging stations. Did they fund gas stations originally?

To encourage the likes of you to get an EV. 

Chicken or Egg. 

The issue that spurned this thread initially was the network of EnRoute Stations in Ontario. Along busy transportation routes, mostly on the 401, Ontario have these service stations with a gas station and plenty of food. These stations should also have EV chargers. 

Currently you have to find chargers off the highway in Big Box parking lots. 

And these chargers are always owned by private companies. We just need more of them. 

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9 minutes ago, Boges said:

To encourage the likes of you to get an EV. 

Chicken or Egg. 

The issue that spurned this thread initially was the network of EnRoute Stations in Ontario. Along busy transportation routes, mostly on the 401, Ontario have these service stations with a gas station and plenty of food. These stations should also have EV chargers. 

Currently you have to find chargers off the highway in Big Box parking lots. 

And these chargers are always owned by private companies. We just need more of them. 

Well then...you're barking up the wrong tree...aren't you.

Go lobby Shell and the like, to build more charging stations for you. But don't ask the tax payer to pay for it.

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2 minutes ago, Boges said:

To encourage the likes of you to get an EV. 

Chicken or Egg. 

The issue that spurned this thread initially was the network of EnRoute Stations in Ontario. Along busy transportation routes, mostly on the 401, Ontario have these service stations with a gas station and plenty of food. These stations should also have EV chargers. 

Currently you have to find chargers off the highway in Big Box parking lots. 

And these chargers are always owned by private companies. We just need more of them. 

There may be a fine line between "encourage" and "force".

I think even you admitted that EV's are not going to save the planet. There seems to be little if any effort in going after industries and transportation (container ships etc) which in fact are the largest emitters. No doubt, car owners are the easiest targets. 

Donald Trump was the biggest target of the left and yet..

US greenhouse gas emissions drop under Trump, but climate experts aren’t celebrating - ABC News (go.com)

I hope Doug Ford will continue to avoid costly and mostly useless wind and solar. 

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1 minute ago, ironstone said:

There may be a fine line between "encourage" and "force".

I think even you admitted that EV's are not going to save the planet. There seems to be little if any effort in going after industries and transportation (container ships etc) which in fact are the largest emitters. No doubt, car owners are the easiest targets. 

The baby steps are that private industry realize that innovating in ways they use 

 

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I doubt anything Trump did contributed to that. Efficiency will always lead to improved emissions. Moving from Coal to LNG will do wonders for Emission totals. 

He trumpeted Coal as something he would continue to advocate for. But Coal doesn't make sense when you have Natural Gas. 

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2 minutes ago, Boges said:

The baby steps are that private industry realize that innovating in ways they use 

 

 

I doubt anything Trump did contributed to that. Efficiency will always lead to improved emissions. Moving from Coal to LNG will do wonders for Emission totals. 

He trumpeted Coal as something he would continue to advocate for. But Coal doesn't make sense when you have Natural Gas. 

I wonder what the limits of EV's will be compared to ICE? 

Did you watch the video I posted earlier and if so do you dispute anything that was on that video? Just curious.

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1 minute ago, ironstone said:

I wonder what the limits of EV's will be compared to ICE? 

Did you watch the video I posted earlier and if so do you dispute anything that was on that video? Just curious.

The Ted Talk? 

I referenced this in my post to Nationalist. 

People get caught up on the emissions to produce an EV but completely ignore the emissions associated with production of gasoline. They just focusing on the emissions from the car itself as if that gasoline just appeared in your Petro Canada via teleportation. 

I also quibble with his insistence that people require an EV with identical range of a comparable ICE. 

If your daily commute falls within the range the EV you want to buy then you should have no issue. An EV doesn't need to go 500-800 kms to be viable. We'll get their eventually though. 

If people have to drive hundreds of kms a day or don't have a garage, then EV ownership will be a pain. But for those that have a garage and a sensible commute, they're amazing. 

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2 minutes ago, Boges said:

The Ted Talk? 

I referenced this in my post to Nationalist. 

People get caught up on the emissions to produce an EV but completely ignore the emissions associated with production of gasoline. They just focusing on the emissions from the car itself as if that gasoline just appeared in your Petro Canada via teleportation. 

I also quibble with his insistence that people require an EV with identical range of a comparable ICE. 

If your daily commute falls within the range the EV you want to buy then you should have no issue. An EV doesn't need to go 500-800 kms to be viable. We'll get their eventually though. 

If people have to drive hundreds of kms a day or don't have a garage, then EV ownership will be a pain. But for those that have a garage and a sensible commute, they're amazing. 

Not that one, this one. He's not really anti EV but he points out a lot of interesting things and basically that we're concentrating on the wrong target.

 

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4 minutes ago, ironstone said:

Not that one, this one. He's not really anti EV but he points out a lot of interesting things and basically that we're concentrating on the wrong target.

 

I'll take a look when I get the chance. 

To be clear, I didn't buy an EV because I thought I was saving the world. I got an EV because I do have a 90-100 kms commute and I was in the market for a new car. 

I don't want to be bound by the gas roller coaster. 

Say what you will about electricity and natural gas, their prices are for more consistent than gas. 

So if you can budget $500 for a new car, you know that you can largely eliminate a few hundred dollars a month by avoiding buying gas and regular oil changes and other maintenance. Back when I was paying $50/week for gas, that's a real savings.

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12 minutes ago, Boges said:

I'll take a look when I get the chance. 

To be clear, I didn't buy an EV because I thought I was saving the world. I got an EV because I do have a 90-100 kms commute and I was in the market for a new car. 

I don't want to be bound by the gas roller coaster. 

Say what you will about electricity and natural gas, their prices are for more consistent than gas. 

So if you can budget $500 for a new car, you know that you can largely eliminate a few hundred dollars a month by avoiding buying gas and regular oil changes and other maintenance. Back when I was paying $50/week for gas, that's a real savings.

BULLY FOR YOU!

Now please stop trying to convince the general public that our tax dollars should pay for the infrastructure for your new car.

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6 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

BULLY FOR YOU!

Now please stop trying to convince the general public that our tax dollars should pay for the infrastructure for your new car.

As long as government is calling for reducing our reliance on fossil fuels, they need to provide the infrastructure to support it.  

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2 hours ago, Boges said:

Your claim was that we would be in a worse state than Germany. 

It's tough to export LNG because it's usually done by a pipeline. But there is no shortage of LNG domestically. And that will fill the gap when the rest of Coal is shut down. 

 

This article mentions Natural Gas for new home construction. Heat Pumps provide a much more efficient method of electrically heating and cooling homes and should be part of any long term plan. 

That being said, Natural Gas will still be used to generate electricity for some time to come. 

Yes and I stand by that. If pipelines are not going to be built and especially to the East, we will be worse than Germany.

We here in Ontario just had a huge windstorm and out electricity went out in some cases for 2 or more weeks,. The infrastructure we have is very vulnerable and yet, we do little or nothing to upgrade.

Yes, homes are being "electrified" but we do not have capacity and brown outs as it is, making new homes all electric only exasperates the problem and then you also want everyone to go EV.

Gotta be able to provide before making substantial changes.

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13 minutes ago, Boges said:

How is this a waste of taxpayer dollars?

https://www.onroute.ca/brands/ev-chargers

Do you travel the 401 or 400?

Point is, adding 69 charging stations along 1000 kms of highway with gawd only knows how much traffic is a joke. Makes for interesting news release but is just not realistic.

And why should taxpayers subsidize those rich enough to buy a EV's? Stop subsidization (even Musk says to stop) and see the sales take a nose dive.

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19 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Yes and I stand by that. If pipelines are not going to be built and especially to the East, we will be worse than Germany.

We here in Ontario just had a huge windstorm and out electricity went out in some cases for 2 or more weeks,. The infrastructure we have is very vulnerable and yet, we do little or nothing to upgrade.

Yes, homes are being "electrified" but we do not have capacity and brown outs as it is, making new homes all electric only exasperates the problem and then you also want everyone to go EV.

Gotta be able to provide before making substantial changes.

You should probably provide a cite for your claim that Ontario's grid is "vulnerable". With the move to Natural Gas over Coal, I think we've greatly improved the situation. And with such area, we have Wind, Solar and Hydro options that we can look to. 

The storm only effected isolated areas. And speaks more to how we get power to homes rather than how we generate power. 

 

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33 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Do you travel the 401 or 400?

I have, yes. And with these stations I would be more likely to use an EV when I go to Montreal again. 

 

Quote

Point is, adding 69 charging stations along 1000 kms of highway with gawd only knows how much traffic is a joke. Makes for interesting news release but is just not realistic.

It's a start. These are Fast Chargers, people won't be waiting there all day. 

 

Quote

And why should taxpayers subsidize those rich enough to buy a EV's? Stop subsidization (even Musk says to stop) and see the sales take a nose dive.

 

You don't have to be rich to own an EV. 

And the Oil industry is heavily subsidized. The government knows this is the way personal transportation is going, so infrastructure is being invested in. 

Also, these are privately run Charging Stations. Users pay to use them. No different from the Canadian Tire Gas Stations at these OnRoutes. 

The government isn't subsidizing Tim Hortons here. 

It's just a convenient place to have these things. 

Edited by Boges
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1 hour ago, ironstone said:

Not that one, this one. He's not really anti EV but he points out a lot of interesting things and basically that we're concentrating on the wrong target.

 

It's a somewhat fair analysis. I'm glad he pointed out that China is actually doing a lot to invest in Green Energy. A lot of people don't realize that. 

Though a lot of his critiques aren't issues here in Canada. He points that out in the video. Canada has a relatively population and vast natural resources. Most of our electricity is made using green sources. 

But something no EV critic ever understands or concedes is that the relative energy an EV uses compared to an ICE makes it a no brainer for efficiency. An ICE needs an extraordinary amount of relative energy to operate. 

A litre of gasoline is quite energy dense, but most ICE vehicles need a lot of it.  

If you had a 50 kwh EV motor. You're only need the energy equivalent of about 5 litres of gas to charge your car. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Boges said:

You should probably provide a cite for your claim that Ontario's grid is "vulnerable". With the move to Natural Gas over Coal, I think we've greatly improved the situation. And with such area, we have Wind, Solar and Hydro options that we can look to. 

The storm only effected isolated areas. And speaks more to how we get power to homes rather than how we generate power. 

 

Cite what? We just had severe wind and power outages in Ontario. In some case more than 2 weeks. It was quite wide spread, not just isolated. Is than not evidence of vulnerable?

Ontario no longer has coal. Wind and Solar in Ontario provides less than 10%. Natural gas provided 8%. Nuclear and hydro provides the rest. "the rate paid to wind generators in Ontario was 14 cents per kWh, which is more than eight times the rate bid by wind generators in Mexico. The rates paid to solar generators over the same period was much higher, at 48 cents per kWh." because of the disaster the former Liberal government promised to companies.

Power outages are far more common than most people think. https://www.generac.com/be-prepared/power-outages/power-outage-tracker-canada

 

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2 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Cite what? We just had severe wind and power outages in Ontario. In some case more than 2 weeks. It was quite wide spread, not just isolated. Is than not evidence of vulnerable?

Ontario no longer has coal. Wind and Solar in Ontario provides less than 10%. Natural gas provided 8%. Nuclear and hydro provides the rest. "the rate paid to wind generators in Ontario was 14 cents per kWh, which is more than eight times the rate bid by wind generators in Mexico. The rates paid to solar generators over the same period was much higher, at 48 cents per kWh." because of the disaster the former Liberal government promised to companies.

Power outages are far more common than most people think. https://www.generac.com/be-prepared/power-outages/power-outage-tracker-canada

Again the storm speaks to aging infrastructure of delivering power. Which is certainly a concern. 

But it doesn't speak to our generation mix. I think it's pretty good and I hope we continue to invest in Nuclear. 

I will agree that how the previous Liberal Government handle Green Energy was wrong. They overpaid for it. Hopefully now that the Conservatives have been given a huge mandate, things will improve. 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Boges said:

Again the storm speaks to aging infrastructure of delivering power. Which is certainly a concern. 

But it doesn't speak to our generation mix. I think it's pretty good and I hope we continue to invest in Nuclear. 

I will agree that how the previous Liberal Government handle Green Energy was wrong. They overpaid for it. Hopefully now that the Conservatives have been given a huge mandate, things will improve. 

 

 

Look, I m being logical.

Ontario (and I suspect the rest of the country as well) is building homes and buildings at enormous rates. Then the push to EV's and the demand will quickly outstrip the supply.

That you acknowledge aging infrastructure issues you also must realize tat without new generation capability, we will not be able to cope with the electrical demand.

New government in Ontario will not, in any way help the energy supply issue. With so much emphasis on "green" and lessening pollution, the available money goes to rebates and green programs (as well as the huge demand for social programs), and not to infrastructure and new supply. So, I do not think things will improve, they will continue to degenerate, all over the country.

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2 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Look, I m being logical.

Ontario (and I suspect the rest of the country as well) is building homes and buildings at enormous rates. Then the push to EV's and the demand will quickly outstrip the supply.

There is plenty of capacity that can be tapped into. This isn't the US where citizens refuse to pay for anything through taxes. 

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That you acknowledge aging infrastructure issues you also must realize tat without new generation capability, we will not be able to cope with the electrical demand.

I'm talking about crappy old transmission wires. The overall capacity is there. Newer communities in Ontario don't have this problem. 

 

Quote

New government in Ontario will not, in any way help the energy supply issue. With so much emphasis on "green" and lessening pollution, the available money goes to rebates and green programs (as well as the huge demand for social programs), and not to infrastructure and new supply. So, I do not think things will improve, they will continue to degenerate, all over the country.

Do you have evidence for this? BTW I haven't seen a brown out in Ontario, well EVER! We have a very good grid currently. Nuclear and Hydro are very stable sources and the supply of LNG is ample. It's how most of us currently heat our homes. 

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4 minutes ago, Boges said:

There is plenty of capacity that can be tapped into. This isn't the US where citizens refuse to pay for anything through taxes. 

I'm talking about crappy old transmission wires. The overall capacity is there. Newer communities in Ontario don't have this problem. 

 

Do you have evidence for this? BTW I haven't seen a brown out in Ontario, well EVER! We have a very good grid currently. Nuclear and Hydro are very stable sources and the supply of LNG is ample. It's how most of us currently heat our homes. 

OK, we will see.

Blackouts

https://www.itworldcanada.com/article/ontario-suffered-more-blackouts-than-any-other-province-in-2017-eaton/403155

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/a-hot-deadly-summer-is-coming-with-frequent-blackouts

Edited by ExFlyer
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19 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Good thing most of Ontario's power isn't subject to these issues. 

2017 don't inform the current environment. And you'd expect the province with 1/3 of the population would have most of the "power outages". The article doesn't indicated any of the power outages were due to "lack of supply". 

The Power goes down because of weather or a freak accident.  

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21 hours ago, Boges said:

That Teslas are the most environmentally unfriendly way to drive a car. 

I know this keeps coming back to the metals required to make a battery. 

I would point three things out. 

1) No one complains about the ethnical and environmental concerns about the Lithium Ion batteries in all their other devices. Why don't we advocate for Cell Phones that use traditional AA batteries? 

2) When someone tries to quantify the emissions required to build an EV, they don't also include the emissions required to mine, refine, and transport the gasoline an ICE requires during its entire lifetime. It's not just the emissions from the car, it's the emissions of the Gasoline industry as well. Transporting gasoline to your local gas station is a wildly inefficient business. With the EV it comes straight to your home through existing power lines. 

3) No one critical of EVs seems to grasp how exponentially more efficient an EV is with energy than an ICE. 60 litres of gasoline could produce so much electricity, but we are bound by these ancient ICE engines that have basically reached the peak of their efficiency. 

You could buy a Generator, and buy gas for that Generator to charge your EV and you'd still be more efficient. 

Exactly the kind of total BS I expect to see the looney left (nd the looney right1) spewing endlessly.

The solution to transportation issues is NOT to devise even more polluting ways to pollute even more to more of the same thing.  The answer is doing LESS of the idiotic shit of moving people and goods endlessly back and fourth.

As I have to re-itereate endlessly: WE DO NOT HAVE A CARBON EMISSION PROBLEM WE HAVE A CARBON ABSORPTION PROBLEM.   And wasting time on "renewables" or other conventional energy system changes to maintain the status quo will do NOTHING about the real problem - oceanic killoff of the plankton that once could easily absorb our CO2 emissions.

You get into the political mindset of "us against them" taught by political partisanship to ignore ANY intelligent thought and just keep spewing the party line mindlessly.

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57 minutes ago, cannuck said:

The solution to transportation issues is NOT to devise even more polluting ways to pollute even more to more of the same thing.  The answer is doing LESS of the idiotic shit of moving people and goods endlessly back and fourth.

Sure if we stopped eating meat and all took public transportation a lot of the global problems would be solved. No one wants to do that tho. 

Quote

As I have to re-itereate endlessly: WE DO NOT HAVE A CARBON EMISSION PROBLEM WE HAVE A CARBON ABSORPTION PROBLEM.   And wasting time on "renewables" or other conventional energy system changes to maintain the status quo will do NOTHING about the real problem - oceanic killoff of the plankton that once could easily absorb our CO2 emissions.

Cite some credible sources that indicate THIS is the real problem? Spewing toxic gases until they run out is good right? 

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