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Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.


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Tesla's opening it's superchargers in the US to everyone. Ford is telling dealerships they must install a fast charger on their lots. Hopefully all car makers will make that their dealership policy. We don't have a charger in our town (yet), its 60 kms to the nearest one in the next town. But there's a few EVs around ppl charge overnight.
A friend bought his wife a PHEV Mitsubishi SUV and it interests me. Almost a large as the old Saturn Vue I don't use much anymore, and she told me he made her drive to Costco (175kms away) because she hadn't gassed up for 3 months and it was going stale.... and I was pumping hundreds of bucks at the time to fill up the Wrangler.

I find the Mazda rotary PHRV I described as fascinating - it actually changes the single rotor's speed each firing cycle to achieve better fuel and emission specs that makes vibrations, but because it's only a generator doesn't make that noticeable thru the drive train. I will try to find the video that explains it. Only puts out 94 hp, but at a steady highway sped that's more than enough - when you need more it draws from the onboard battery.
We could also look at powering Hybrids with propane or LNG. Lots of options to explore.

Like with everything - there's far more than just either or, black or white solutions.

 

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2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Before you go any further, i 've got about 500 pages of engineers reports on my desk right now regarding ev charging in specific buildings. I don't really care what your weird air conditioner theories are - i know what i'm talking about.

Central air takes ONE  hook up. And in fact they do cause a lot of power issues. Ask california about that. And to answer your question for the most part they started to design new buildings with central air and incorporate it into the original design  - old buildings did without it. But if everyone's got an EV then ALL buildings must provide for it. It's a world of difference.

A modest sized condo would have 80 units. To provide 30 amps between them even if you load balance over 4 units would be 600 amps and you'd have to be able to supply that all at once for extended periods. That's above and beyond the building's other power needs. Buildings are not built for that.  It CAN be done but you'd have to go back and re do the building grid and that is NOT cheap. Then theres the costs of the coring to get to the parking stalls. None of that is cheap or easy either. So - who's paying for that? ANd how long will it take if we started today to get all the buildings up? Unless we import a hell of a lot of electricians it's going to be more than 12 years. I can barely get one on site to fix a light fixture right now.

It cannot be done without extensive modifications and in most cases the local grid couldn't do it for more than about one building if at all without upgrades. So we're also talking about hundreds of millions in upgrades for hydro . This is NOT a simple prospect.

If you're counting on a roll of the dice - then it is morally and ethically wrong to set a hard date. A gov't goal must be achievable.

No, it is possible to stimulate advancement without being destructive.  An off the cuff example would be requiring all provincial power companies to produce a plan for how they will upgrade their grid to allow for ev's when the need is there with details. That helps a lot with planning and gives politicians an idea fo what's possible to develop strategies with. Or require all new buildings to be plumbed with conduit for ev charging circuits, and to have the internal capacity physically even if they don't have enough power run to the building day one.  That at least starts to provide for infrastucture moving forward and it's an order of magnitude cheaper than retro'ing the building later.

There's things we can do. But now - the gov't can say "oh we solved that problem" without having actually done ANYTHING constructive and can just walk away.  And 12 years from now when we're stuck in the same boat the liberals will be like "oh well - that guy is gone now, vote for us! We can solve the problem in 12 years from now, isn't that great!?"

This pretty much says what I've been saying throughout this thread, but is a lot more technical detail. Well done, I think you know your stuff. 

It's just that Boges doesn't like all that negativity when it comes to his EV. Stop trying to tarnish his halo. ;) 

Not to mention what dirty business mining is. Far worse than most people realize.

I have no faith that government can deliver on a complete solution. So far this is mere lip service and political posturing more than anything else. Meanwhile we might screw ourselves. Canadians being the  first to make a move, may end up investing in unproven technology or that has little net gain in the long run.

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2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

It's just that Boges doesn't like all that negativity when it comes to his EV.

Who can blame him for loving the idea of it. If we could pull it off in an affordable and practical manner it would solve all KINDS of problems. And it's SOOO close, we've come so far since the first prius rolled off the line around 2000.

And for sure for some individuals it's great right now, but unless something changes drastically we'll never be able to hit a 12 year mass adoption strategy.

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I have no faith that government can deliver on a complete solution.

Well they're not even frikkin' trying, and thats what pisses me off.  Justin just announces this date without any thought or plan or anything.

It reminds me of that "the office" episode where Michael walks out and says "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!"  and the staff says 'you cant just go bankrupt like that' and he says "Yes i can  i just declared it!!"

It's just not how it works. And i feel there's a lot we could be doing to actually move closer to that next generation solution  LIKE making buildings be designed at least to accomodate the wiring .  But we don't.

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"New geological study proves that the green energy movement is impossible to achieve

The math doesn’t support the net zero activist movement’s rhetoric. Eliminating indispensable fossil fuels, as Germany is experiencing at an accelerating rate, without replacing it with the equivalent of alternative energy, would quickly collapse modern society. Think of it as the “Jonestown Massacre” on a global scale.

(American Thinker) — The renewable energy fantasy goal is achieving net zero carbon emissions by 2050.  Carpet-bombing propaganda has convinced the public to accept the extravagant claim that technology currently exists to reach net zero carbon emissions.  Like carnival barkers, the net-zero fanatics say renewable energy is affordable, sustainable, scalable, and not an economy wrecker.

The goal is to create a first-generation green power grid relying on wind turbine farms, solar array farms, and power storage battery banks replacing fossil fuel and nuclear power plants.  In addition, the new power grid would power a global fleet of electric vehicles that would replace the internal combustion engine.

Western society has taken one hundred fifty years of progress to achieve a fantastically complex energy system using the dense source of cheap hydrocarbon energy, the master resource.  Yet the net zero devotees believe that the complex energy system can be dismantled with minimal disruption and replaced with a low-density renewable energy grid that is intermittent and non-scalable, in less than thirty years.

Well, I have horrible news for the devotees: the green energy fantasy collides with the laws of thermodynamics.  The Greenies never researched whether or not there are sufficient base and rare earth metals and adequate time to mine and build out the technologies to accomplish the net zero carbon 2050 target date."

New geological study proves that the green energy movement is impossible to achieve - LifeSite (lifesitenews.com)

People can buy EVs if they wish.  But putting taxpayer money into it is a waste of the nations resources.  Taxpayer money should not be spent for an impossible and useless purpose of trying to replace fossil fuels when it is an impossible scheme to achieve.  It is throwing good money away.  Taxpayer money comes from hard-working Canadians and taxes just reduce the prosperity of everyone.

The shift to net zero and away from fossil fuels is simply a pipe dream and is not going to happen in the foreseeable future.

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If you're going to encourage people to drive electric, you essentially need to have incentives that push people to adopt the technology.

I don't think the technology is anywhere near that point.

Batteries take too long to charge. Many of these vehicles sell at price ranges that make them out of reach for many.

Even with cleaner technologies, batteries still wouldn't be 100% recyclable. 

You need to ensure the electricity powering the vehicles is clean, and that the grid can handle the surge needed for charging them.

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16 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

If you're going to encourage people to drive electric, you essentially need to have incentives that push people to adopt the technology.

I don't think the technology is anywhere near that point.

Batteries take too long to charge. Many of these vehicles sell at price ranges that make them out of reach for many.

Even with cleaner technologies, batteries still wouldn't be 100% recyclable. 

You need to ensure the electricity powering the vehicles is clean, and that the grid can handle the surge needed for charging them.

You've encapsulated the conundrum nicely, but the debate now is more along the lines of:

a) is it possible to correct the weaknesses of the current tech by putting some hard deadlines in place to motivate change?

b) just how much cleaner will they actually be in areas without plentiful renewable energy like bc or quebec?

c) is it possible or practical to look at those changes to the grid etc.

d) will using incentives improve adaption long term?

And of course

d)  are we better off to wait till there's something more robust as a solution and suffer the pollution in the meantime, or push for something imperfect now to try to try to reduce emissions and reliance on fuels (which for many countries must be supplied by bad guys).

bonus question - would we be better off trying to improve and maximize on plug in hybrid solutions as a better interim bridge till smoething comes along.

That's basically what we're discussing.

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7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You've encapsulated the conundrum nicely, but the debate now is more along the lines of:

a) is it possible to correct the weaknesses of the current tech by putting some hard deadlines in place to motivate change?

b) just how much cleaner will they actually be in areas without plentiful renewable energy like bc or quebec?

c) is it possible or practical to look at those changes to the grid etc.

d) will using incentives improve adaption long term?

And of course

d)  are we better off to wait till there's something more robust as a solution and suffer the pollution in the meantime, or push for something imperfect now to try to try to reduce emissions and reliance on fuels (which for many countries must be supplied by bad guys).

bonus question - would we be better off trying to improve and maximize on plug in hybrid solutions as a better interim bridge till smoething comes along.

That's basically what we're discussing.

A. Hard deadlines won't work. Innovation takes time. The current battery technology isn't where it needs to be, to compete with what is currently on the market. I could fill a full sized gas powered pick up truck from empty faster than most vehicles on the market even at a fraction of the size. Plus, it is not recommended to fill past 80% on super chargers, as you're weakening the battery capacity over time. This makes this worse, especially for the vehicles with weaker ranges.

I mean, there are fueling stations everywhere. I run out, I have nothing to worry about. 

I live in a highly urbanized city, but outside its borders, I rely heavily on apps to hopefully find a super charger charging station. I shouldn't feel anxiety when driving and don't with my car. Always have driving electric ones, if driving long distances. Forcing people to change, vs incentives to do so, will make most shun the technology as long as they can.

B. Until this is fixed across the board, deadlines are just like building designs. They look pretty, but until you factor in physics, or in this case infrastructure, they remain just that. Pretty numbers.

C. One needs to plan for unintended consequences of flipping an entire population onto an already burdened grid with an added and major load.

D. They will help, but people tend to buy things when they work for them. Meaning, if I want a luxury car, I can spend 45k on an electric car and get just that. If I can get way more bang for my buck getting say, a Lexus, most will likely go for the latter. Very few will have an appetite to buy to save the planet. Most suffer from the "what's in it for me" syndrome.

E. Build a solid infrastructure, and a product that competes and beats fuel powered cars, and people will naturally opt for the better choice. Until its the better choice, only those wanting to feel like they are doing something for the planet, will care for the technology. 

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On 1/9/2023 at 10:18 AM, Boges said:

So you'd rather be a slave to gas stations, as opposed to being able to charge your car at home every night and have a full charge every morning. But, maybe, have to wait a half hour for a charge for long distance travel. Which you'll probably be stopping for coffee and a bathroom break anyway. 

Old habits are hard to break, I suppose. 

 

Or a slave to charging stations??

Half hour??

Google "charging station line ups" and only 3% of vehicles are electric and it is not in  freezing temperatures.

I am pro EV but, they have a long way to go and more importantly, our electricity production infrastructure has a long way to go to be able to cope with all the things turning electric (even gas appliances (stoves, heating hot water etc) are being banned by some places to turn to electric)

image.jpeg.a86eadce188b507f441778329d00d2ba.jpeg

image.jpeg.db45d4fe53488ef9134a82ca3e3856a8.jpeg

 

 

Edited by ExFlyer
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1 minute ago, ExFlyer said:

Or a slave to charging stations??

Half hour??

Google "charging station line ups" and only 3% of vehicles are electric and it is not in  freezing temperatures.

image.jpeg.a86eadce188b507f441778329d00d2ba.jpeg

 

image.jpeg.7c63b91e96fa122f941a844b353695b5.jpeg

 

These are Teslas. 

If you buy an EV and don't have the ability to charge at home, you'll likely struggle. 

Those pics needs some context. 

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We're definitely still in the early-ish phase of the EV adoption Curve. 

Like with early users of the internet or smart phones or PCs there will be challenges but there becomes a point where development move to a more grander scale. 

All I really hear from pessimists is that we're not there now. No Shit! But you're full of crap if you can confidently predict if we can or can't be there in a decade. 

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1 minute ago, Boges said:

 

These are Teslas

If you buy an EV and don't have the ability to charge at home, you'll likely struggle. 

Those pics needs some context. 

EV is EV regardless of brand.

Context is that your claim of " maybe, have to wait a half hour for a charge for long distance traveland this is what is happening now.

 

Note: I edited while you were posting.

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Just now, ExFlyer said:

EV is EV regardless of brand.

Context is that your claim of " maybe, have to wait a half hour for a charge for long distance traveland this is what is happening now.

 

Note: I edited while you were posting.

Teslas have this Super Charger Network that make people think that it's super easy and convenient. 

I saw a Reel on the weekend where a Tesla owner complained that these Super Chargers don't tell if they're occupied from an app. I'm not sure if that's true or not. 

I know from the main normie EV Charging Apps, Flo, Chargepoint, Electrify etc. You can look up that charger and see the status. 

I'll concede a long-distance trip in an EV requires some planning. But there are tools out there for that. 

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6 minutes ago, Boges said:

We're definitely still in the early-ish phase of the EV adoption Curve. 

Like with early users of the internet or smart phones or PCs there will be challenges but there becomes a point where development move to a more grander scale. 

All I really hear from pessimists is that we're not there now. No Shit! But you're full of crap if you can confidently predict if we can or can't be there in a decade. 

Yes, early.

Comparing internet and PC usage to vehicle electrical usage is absolutely a useless analogy.

I cannot and did not and will not predict if we can or cannot be there in a decade. I can say that we will be seriously short of electrical production infrastructure. We have brown outs now on hot summer days and only very few EV's on the road. It takes more than a decade to build new nuclear plants and maybe even longer for hydroelectric production facilities.

Edited by ExFlyer
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1 minute ago, ExFlyer said:

I cannot and did not and will not predict if we can or cannot be tgher in a decade. I can say that we will be seriously short of electrical production infrastructure. We have brown outs now on hot summer days and only very few EV's on the road. It takes more than a decade to build new nuclear plants and maybe even longer for hydroelectric production facilities.

Not if Green Technology advances along with EV adoption. 

Imagine we could store electricity efficiently? 

https://www.powermag.com/best-is-yet-to-come-for-energy-storage-technology/

It's not exactly science fiction. 

One of the cool things about EVs moving forward is that they could be part of the solution with the way they can feed into the grid. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/ev-to-grid-1.6100454

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4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

A. Hard deadlines won't work. Innovation takes time. The current battery technology isn't where it needs to be, to compete with what is currently on the market. I could fill a full sized gas powered pick up truck from empty faster than most vehicles on the market even at a fraction of the size. Plus, it is not recommended to fill past 80% on super chargers, as you're weakening the battery capacity over time. This makes this worse, especially for the vehicles with weaker ranges.

I mean, there are fueling stations everywhere. I run out, I have nothing to worry about. 

I live in a highly urbanized city, but outside its borders, I rely heavily on apps to hopefully find a super charger charging station. I shouldn't feel anxiety when driving and don't with my car. Always have driving electric ones, if driving long distances. Forcing people to change, vs incentives to do so, will make most shun the technology as long as they can.

B. Until this is fixed across the board, deadlines are just like building designs. They look pretty, but until you factor in physics, or in this case infrastructure, they remain just that. Pretty numbers.

C. One needs to plan for unintended consequences of flipping an entire population onto an already burdened grid with an added and major load.

D. They will help, but people tend to buy things when they work for them. Meaning, if I want a luxury car, I can spend 45k on an electric car and get just that. If I can get way more bang for my buck getting say, a Lexus, most will likely go for the latter. Very few will have an appetite to buy to save the planet. Most suffer from the "what's in it for me" syndrome.

E. Build a solid infrastructure, and a product that competes and beats fuel powered cars, and people will naturally opt for the better choice. Until its the better choice, only those wanting to feel like they are doing something for the planet, will care for the technology. 

I think people get caught in this idea that transportation NEEDS! to be like it always has been for us to move past ICE vehicles. 

Driving an EV requires some planning for longer trips. In rural areas they aren't ideal yet. BUT as I keep saying, for a good majority of personal transportation solutions, most modern EVs suffice. 

Right now they're only really useful for those with Single Family homes. But if you do have a single family home with charging infrastructure, they're amazing. It's quite liberating not having to think about when you need to get gas next and at what price. 

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12 minutes ago, Boges said:

Not if Green Technology advances along with EV adoption. 

Imagine we could store electricity efficiently? 

https://www.powermag.com/best-is-yet-to-come-for-energy-storage-technology/

It's not exactly science fiction. 

One of the cool things about EVs moving forward is that they could be part of the solution with the way they can feed into the grid. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/ev-to-grid-1.6100454

Look, I already said I am pro EV, I am just not evangelistic about it.

Green technology is still a user of electricity and the more green technology advances, the more electricity is needs.

I am realistic and see that our infrastructure will need huge upgrade sto move towards electrification of our vehicles and heating and cooking and whatever else greenies are espousing.

Anyone that thinks EV's will feed the grid instead of using it to drive is off kilter LOL

Edited by ExFlyer
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1 minute ago, ExFlyer said:

Look, I already said I am pro EV, I am just not evangelistic about it.

I am realistic and see that our infrastructure will need huge upgrade sto move towards electrification of our vehicles and heating and cooking and whatever else greenies are espousing.

Anyone that thinks EV's will feed the grid instead of using it to drive is off kilter LOL

 

People always talk about what happens with an EV when the power goes out. As if your average person has a few litres of gasoline in stock in case the power goes out. 

It's not a huge leap to see that having 30-100 kwh of energy stored in your car can be a God sent if there's a power disruption. That's way more power than an average generator holds.

The solution here is not power generation, its power storage. And none of us are smart enough to predict the technologies that will evolve in the coming years to solve that problem. 

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1 hour ago, Boges said:

People always talk about what happens with an EV when the power goes out. As if your average person has a few litres of gasoline in stock in case the power goes out. 

This is one example - but it highlights a serious problem in your argument that shows up in most of your examples.

"Most" people would never be able to take advantage of that tech or already have solutions that work.  When you look at where people live, In the city a LOT live in apartments.  Well you're not running an extension from the parkade to the 12th floor :)  So they're out.  For others - UNLESS YOU HAVE INSTALLED THE APPROPRIATE BREAKER SYSTEM - if you just plug your car into the house system you'll run power over the power lines and wind up frying some repair guy.  So people would have to pay to modify their homes.

ANd finally in areas where there's a lot of power outages people already have generators. They absolutely have a few gallons of gasoline handy - many like myself have propane systems for their generators and i've got about 300 lb of propane on hand in a pig tank at any time. The thing comes on automaticaly when the power dies.  We have a LOT of power outages and people around here have already got the tools they need to live with it.

So the benefit to most people is very low. But you're selling it like 'most' people would indeed benefit. there's almost no benefit.

"Most" people drive a short distance, which is true but there's a lot who live in small towns or in the country with no public transport who have to drive more than that.   So when we talk about making it MANDITORY for EVERYONE - there's hundreds of thousands of people who would get screwed by that if the tech problems aren't solved.

When you describe the tech it's all stuff which SHOULD be possible but isn't yet. It IS science fiction until it's science. They MAY develop this or taht tech, they BELIEVE it's possible within this timeline, HOPEFULLY this will be resolved. etc etc.

But it's not there. And taking a gamble that it will be is questionable.

 

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28 minutes ago, Boges said:

most modern EVs suffice. 

People don't buy stuff just so they can make a bunch of sacrifices. Certainly not with luxury goods.

At the current average price point for a mid range or entry level EV, you're not going to make sacrifices unless are the type who will buy something that doesn't work for you, to "save the planet".

You don't buy first class seats, to pay extra for the food. There is a certain expectation when you pay a certain amount for something, that is incredibly expensive to most consumers.

I have encountered the issue of running low on fuel in an EV. I was to drive 187kms, so made sure to have a full charge.

I didn't factor in that air conditioning would rob me of tons of range, as had never driven an EV a few years ago. I had to exit at the nearest exit, and luckily had heard of apps to find a station and had one close enough. Had I taken my detour, I would have been toast.

This is beyond inconvenient. Super charge stations are not as available, as basic ones.

1 hour ago, Boges said:

It's quite liberating not having to think about when you need to get gas next and at what price. 

Maybe am picky, but I find it liberating that I can travel anywhere with my car and not have to worry about charging stations.

Electric cars are great. Quiet, high tech. Once that is fixed, count me in.

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1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

People don't buy stuff just so they can make a bunch of sacrifices. Certainly not with luxury goods.

At the current average price point for a mid range or entry level EV, you're not going to make sacrifices unless are the type who will buy something that doesn't work for you, to "save the planet".

You don't buy first class seats, to pay extra for the food. There is a certain expectation when you pay a certain amount for something, that is incredibly expensive to most consumers.

I don't see it as a sacrifice. I see it as a way to escape from the myriad of problems associated with an ICE vehicle like the wild swings in the price of gas based on things that happen far from Canada, to the constant string of problems and issues that pop up on an ICE as it gets older. I once had to pay $1,000 to repair a leaky Cooling system on a car I had that was less than 10 years old. 

It definitely fits well into my lifestyle. 

Quote

 

I have encountered the issue of running low on fuel in an EV. I was to drive 187kms, so made sure to have a full charge.

I didn't factor in that air conditioning would rob me of tons of range, as had never driven an EV a few years ago. I had to exit at the nearest exit, and luckily had heard of apps to find a station and had one close enough. Had I taken my detour, I would have been toast.

This is beyond inconvenient. Super charge stations are not as available, as basic ones.

Maybe am picky, but I find it liberating that I can travel anywhere with my car and not have to worry about charging stations.

Electric cars are great. Quiet, high tech. Once that is fixed, count me in.

 

I mentioned that we're at the early adopter stage of this. There are plenty of people willing to modify their behaviours to accommodate for the benefits. 

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8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

"Most" people drive a short distance, which is true but there's a lot who live in small towns or in the country with no public transport who have to drive more than that.   So when we talk about making it MANDITORY for EVERYONE - there's hundreds of thousands of people who would get screwed by that if the tech problems aren't solved. \\

In the middle of the next decade. And even then, it's only the sale of new vehicles. ICE vehicles will still be around for a good while. 

This is not impending. I seriously doubt our political leaders would move forward if technological fixes weren't in place. These are simply goals. Goals that will also have to come with advancements in Green Energy Technology. 

It'll be interesting when there's a tipping point where investment in EV tech is more convenient than finding a Gas Station that sells a super expensive fossil fuel that's heavily taxed. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Boges said:

I mentioned that we're at the early adopter stage of this. There are plenty of people willing to modify their behaviours to accommodate for the benefits. 

And they should have the freedom to do so and should be encouraged.  I don't even mind putting a few tax dollars on the line to kickstart things - but it's wrong to suggest EVERYONE should by ending the sale of ICE vehicles before the tech is there for everyone.

And we're talking about more than "goals".  Ice vehicles should be sold until the day that the tech is mature enough to replace them. There should be no 'hard' targets to adapt something that doesn't exist.

Edited by CdnFox
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21 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And they should have the freedom to do so and should be encouraged.  I don't even mind putting a few tax dollars on the line to kickstart things - but it's wrong to suggest EVERYONE should by ending the sale of ICE vehicles before the tech is there for everyone.

And we're talking about more than "goals".  Ice vehicles should be sold until the day that the tech is mature enough to replace them. There should be no 'hard' targets to adapt something that doesn't exist.

I disagree. We're simply talking about Goals. None of the plans by governments or car companies are binding. They illustrate an intention to move away from ICE vehicles in the next 2 decades. You have to pick a target, or nothing gets done. We're ultimately talking about an environmental measure. 

We're in this weird environment with cars right now. You couldn't buy a new car EV or ICE if you wanted. The COVID induced Supply-chain disruption has made getting any New Car difficult. 

I had the fortune of being in the new car market in the Summer of 2020 where we were in a depressed market, so supply, price and interest rates were good. Not the case now.

Edited by Boges
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15 minutes ago, Boges said:

I once had to pay $1,000 to repair a leaky Cooling system on a car I had that was less than 10 years old. 

I have always bought reliable cars, so never had a major issue. 

Some cars are lemons, some are incredibly reliable. It is still in the open which is better after 10 or more years. Fueled cars are tried and tested. Replacing a Tesla's battery would cost you enough to buy a car.

16 minutes ago, Boges said:

I don't see it as a sacrifice

Most people who rely on their cars to be flexible like I do, would.

My car is used for business, road trips and I just don't have the time to charge while on the road, nor would want to. Very few have the luxury of being able to buy a charger for their homes.

It isn't realistic for most of the population.

20 grand gets me a gorgeous gas car. Find me a gorgeous EV at that price point. 

The technology works for you, but we are talking mass adoption.

Those pushing these technologies need to figure out how to make it work for most.

Henry Ford figured out how to make cars accessible to all. 

It will take the same mindset with EVs.

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6 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

20 grand gets me a gorgeous gas car.

NEW? BS! 

If you're talking Used, we're not talking Apples to Apples yet. And in this market I suspect you can't get a good used car for that price right now. 

All modern EVs sold now have generous Warranties on the batteries. 

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