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It Begins. . . Quebec and NYC to implement Vaccine Passports.


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35 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I'm sorry/not sorry that you and Dialamah are living in terror.

I'm also not anti-vax.  I'm vax hesitant and 100% against the passports.

I mask, I wash my hands many times a day, I frankly rarely go anywhere besides work and no one at my work is living in terror, either.

I know you would love it for me to live in the same fear & trembling you do, but I won't. Too stressful, which as you know - is very bad for your health.

Sounds like you live in terror of a safe vaccine. 

pst. COVID is much more dangerous. 

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14 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I worked in medical during the H1N1 scare and I honestly have never seen so many adverse, and life-altering reactions, including death from a flu vaccine before.  Normally, any vaccine or pharmaceutical that results in even a tiny fraction of the deaths that have happened from this vaccine - it is pulled off the shelves.  So it's odd to me that it is being forced on the public.

Are you using VAERS as a source again? 

Approaching 70% of Canadians are fully vaccinated. How many have died? 

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37 minutes ago, Goddess said:

sorry/not sorry that you and Dialamah are living in terror

Not actually living in terror.  I dine in at restaurants, visit friends and family, go to the gym, walk my dog.  I feel pretty comfortable, actually, .

You know who's living in terror?  People who deny the seriousness of Covid, deny the effectiveness of social distancing, masks and vaccines.  Denial is how people deal with things they're too scared to face head on.

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13 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Not actually living in terror.  I dine in at restaurants, visit friends and family, go to the gym, walk my dog.  I feel pretty comfortable, actually, .

You know who's living in terror?  People who deny the seriousness of Covid, deny the effectiveness of social distancing, masks and vaccines.  Denial is how people deal with things they're too scared to face head on.

That doesn't even make any sense.  None of those people are demanding the things you are, based in fear and terror.  

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2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

That doesn't even make any sense.  None of those people are demanding the things you are, based in fear and terror.  

Like fear and terror of a vaccine. 

I live in fear and terror of another broad Lockdown because Healthcare systems become overwhelmed again. 

I predict Alberta is on that path because of their inaction this Summer. Glad I don't live there. But hope you enjoyed two months not having to wear masks. 

Edited by Boges
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42 minutes ago, Goddess said:

That doesn't even make any sense.  None of those people are demanding the things you are, based in fear and terror.  

Fear and terror of what, exactly? I'm vaccinated and unlikely to get sick at all.  If I do get sick, I'm far less likely to end up in hospital or to die, than an unvaccinated person.  And I'm able to do everything I could do prior to Covid, even if a mask is required.  

What you think is terror is actually a desire to reduce illness and death of others, as much as possible.  

In the meantime you are too scared to get a vaccine that is far less dangerous than Covid because it might sometime in the future, have side effects.  

So who is really living in terror?

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58 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

So who is really living in terror?

You.  You're the one demanding everyone get the jab, no matter what the personal risks are to themselves or future issues or any other the other reasons I've given you or be ostracized from society.  For an illness with a 99% survival rate.

Not me living in fear, honey.  100% you.

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12 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You.  You're the one demanding everyone get the jab, no matter what the personal risks are to themselves or future issues or any other the other reasons I've given you or be ostracized from society.  For an illness with a 99% survival rate.

Such a liar.  I've said multiple times that I think people who are  at risk from the vaccine shouldn't get it; I've even specifically included you.  Go back a few pages to September 10, where I posted this:  "So, if your doc has said that your heart condition makes you especially prone to myocarditis or pericarditis, than maybe not taking the vaccine is the right choice for you; I don't know. "

16 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Not me living in fear, honey.  100% you.

Frightened people lie so they can believe they're right.  And you've admitted you're afraid the vaccine might have side effects later; projecting your fear isn't an effective coping strategy either.

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26 minutes ago, Goddess said:

ostracized from society

Oh yeah, the unvaccinated are not being ostracized; they're being prevented from certain indoor elective activities to reduce the risk of spreading disease.  They can get takeout, get booze, go grocery shopping, play baseball outside, go swimming, stay at a hotel, visit the doctor or the hospital.  Claiming ostracization because people can't dine in, go to concerts/bars and gyms is simply hyperbole engaged in by people who don't have a logical argument.

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There is no rational basis for mandatory vaccination - PANDA (biznews.com)

I agree with this article that we have completely thrown science and everything we know about coronaviruses, vaccines and how they work out the window.  I don't know why.

But I think the remarks about Sweden are very pertinent.

THE INFECTION FATALITY RATE

According to the World Health Organisation, the mean infection fatality rate (“IFR”) for COVID-19 is less than 0.2%. This is the percentage of people infected with SARS-CoV-2 who die. That data has now been fleshed out in more detail in a recent paper. Across all countries, the median IFR and the infection survival rate were as follows (rounded to two decimal places):

Screenshot-2021-09-13-at-14.32.12.png

That is the extent of the problem that public health policies like lockdowns and mandatory vaccines are solving for. And this is the first elephant no one is talking about.

Sweden

Fearmongers don’t like counterfactuals. As the virus took hold, most governments told us that we would only be saved by lockdowns, masks and giving up hard-won human rights. Sweden said, “We’ll stick to the plan, thanks.” Sweden did very little to try to stop the virus. It did not lock down, Swedes did not wear masks, most schools remained open, few businesses were shut. For more than a year, Sweden’s demise was predicted. Time Magazine said that Sweden’s “experiment of not implementing early and strong measures to safeguard the population … is almost certain to result in a net failure in terms of death and suffering.” 

It was not Sweden that was conducting an experiment. Sweden followed the plans that had been prepared all over the world for dealing with respiratory pandemics. Lockdowns are the experiment. 

Sweden’s economy has performed better than any other in Europe in 2020 and shows spectacular growth in 2021. That performance has not been at the expense of lives. 

 

Comparing mortality across countries is difficult given the differences in the way countries count deaths. Sweden is in 39th position on the Worldometer rankings in terms of deaths per million from COVID-19 – ahead of countries like the UK and the USA where harsh lockdowns were implemented. However, it is easy to manipulate death data to make people afraid. Simply use very sensitive tests to “diagnose” the virus and use very inclusive definitions to decide which deaths are linked to the virus. In Sweden if you tested positive for COVID and died 29 days later, you were counted as a COVID death. That wasn’t the case in all parts of the USA for example. However, one constant metric is “all-cause mortality”, i.e. the total number of people that die from all causes in any year. What does Sweden look like?

Screenshot-2021-09-13-at-14.33.21.png

Sweden’s all-cause mortality in 2020/2021 was unchanged from prior years. 2019/2020 was only slightly above average, probably explained by the lower than usual preceding year. If there hadn’t been a magnifying glass on COVID-19 infections, no one in Sweden would have noticed a pandemic. The reason? There were not actually that many deaths from COVID-19; there were simply a lot of deaths “with COVID-19”, most of which took place amongst those at high risk of death. Life expectancy in Sweden is about 82 years. Around 26% of deaths were of people over 90 years old, about 67% were over 80 and 89% were over 70. Less than 1% of those who died were under 50. Let that sink for a moment. In Sweden, where there were essentially no lockdowns, less than 1% of the victims who were captured by a very broad definition of deaths with COVID were under 50 and more than two thirds of the deaths occurred in people who had lived about as long as they were expected to live. 

Countries that imposed the novel lockdown policy do not look like Sweden. South Africa imposed lockdowns before the first COVID death occurred. It has one of the highest excess death rates in the world, despite imposing one of the harshest and longest lockdowns. It also has a government that has been caught manipulating the excess deaths data to generate the highest possible death numbers. The USA similarly fared badly. The only conclusion to draw from this is that the lockdown experiment and other poorly-conceived public health responses killed people who did not need to die. Cancelling sports and closing gyms makes people less healthy, causing the number 1 COVID comorbidity – obesity. Making people miserable and afraid causes the number 2 COVID comorbidity – fear and anxiety-based disorders.

COVID-19 vaccinations are voluntary in Sweden. Sweden does not try to diminish the side effects of the vaccines, but refers citizens to the manufacturers’ documentation which also lists serious side effects. Sweden promises citizens that, “If you are offered a vaccination against COVID-19, you will be able to decide for yourself, based on the available knowledge of the disease and the vaccine. You will also be given information about the vaccine before you need to make a decision.” This is called informed consent and it is a basic principle of medicine that other countries have ignored. Sweden tells its citizens openly that vaccines will not stop the pandemic rather than telling people that normality will only return when everyone has been jabbed. Sweden has delivered enough vaccines to cover about 50% of the population since it began rolling out vaccines in December 2020. It has zero deaths currently.

It turns out Sweden was a country to emulate, not to disparage. It turns out that you don’t need to vaccinate the population to control COVID-19; you just need to do what centuries of science told us to do.

Edited by Goddess
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1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Haha, the fearmongerers  never want to discuss the actual facts about this pandemic.

Your info about Sweden is wrong.  

Eventually, after Sweden's daily COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations, and death skyrocketed from October to December, the country closed non-essential public spaces, such as gyms, pools and libraries, and recommend masks during rush hour on public transport.

It closed high schools and universities in the spring of 2020, required social distancing in bars and restaurants, and asked the sick and elderly to stay home. Public gatherings were also limited in size to varying degrees over the course of the pandemic. 

That all sounds very much like what I experienced in BC.  

Sweden has recorded more COVID-19 cases per capita than most countries so far: Since the start of the pandemic, roughly 11 out of every 100 people in Sweden have been diagnosed with COVID-19, compared with 9.4 out of every 100 in the UK and 7.4 per 100 in Italy. Sweden has also recorded around 145 COVID-19 deaths for every 100,000 people — around three times more than Denmark, eight times more than Finland, and nearly 10 times more than Norway.

Sweden has a population of ~10 million and has had 1,143,973 cases and 14,753 deaths.  Canada, with 3 times the population, has had 1.56 million cases and 27,325 deaths.  If lockdowns/masks/vaccinations didn't work, why wouldn't Canada have had over 3 million cases and 45,000 deaths - to put them on par with Sweden's "success"?  

The Public Health Agency of Sweden has this to say:  The stricter national regulations and general guidelines include both individuals and businesses. The regulation aimed at individuals emphasises the personal responsibility. Everyone is responsible for taking precautionary measures to protect themselves and others against the spread of COVID-19. You have to consider how to avoid getting infected or infecting others. It is particularly important to be considerate towards people in at-risk groups. You can do your part by following the general guidelines.

Sweden has a vaccine passport and are leaving it open as to whether they'll use it to limit access:  But aside from travel into the country, the pass is not used at all for access to things like events, museums, restaurants or bars. The government hasn’t ruled it out entirely, but has said the Swedish preference is to open up for everyone at the same time instead.

Perhaps you should consider that lack of response isn't because you've presented such great "evidence".  Could be that people have lives, or something, and anyway nobody is obligated to respond to you at all, let alone on your schedule.  I myself will not have time to counter your misinformation/lies, as I'm off to visit my kids this weekend.  

Edited by dialamah
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Sweden didnt shut down businesses. They took immediate action to give protection to their elderly population, because they knew thats where it would hit the worst. How did they know? Did our guys know that too?

We have yet to follow up on promised for better facilities to keep the elderly in LTC’s alive longer. I wonder what the holdup is.

Edited by OftenWrong
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1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Sweden didnt shut down businesses.

They shut down gyms, imposed restrictions on how many people could be in restaurants and bars, limited gatherings, among other things.  

The trade-off for not entirely shutting down businesses was a much higher per Capita death rate than it's nearest neighbors.  Their per Capita death rate was higher than Canada's and even the UK.

I get that you're ok trading lives so you don't have to wear a mask or get a vaccine, but most people feel differently.

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Sweden did not follow the same script as most others, and their results confirmed that the Canadian approach was excessive, costly and largely ineffective. Facts speak for themselves. 

Last time I saw their data, the numbers were way down near zero.

They took appropriate measures when and where needed. Not shut down everything and keep the kids home.

They had a good education program for the public, teach people what the important issues are, so they are better able to protect themselves.

It really sticks in the covid fanatics craw. 

Go Sweden!

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1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Sweden did not follow the same script as most others, and their results confirmed that the Canadian approach was excessive, costly and largely ineffective. Facts speak for themselves. 

Last time I saw their data, the numbers were way down near zero.

They took appropriate measures when and where needed. Not shut down everything and keep the kids home.

They had a good education program for the public, teach people what the important issues are, so they are better able to protect themselves.

It really sticks in the covid fanatics craw. 

Go Sweden!

Sweden also had a relatively high mortality rate. 

Not sure what it is now. Doesn't matter as they're on the Vaccine train like most developed countries. Google says 61% fully vaxxed. 

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1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Sweden did not follow the same script as most others, and their results confirmed that the Canadian approach was excessive, costly and largely ineffective. 

Sweden lost far more people than they should have; if Canada had followed their example, we'd have had 3 times as many illnesses and twice as many deaths.   Sweden is at 2012 deaths per million; Canada, 728.

Sweden's neighbors, who did implement lockdowns and restrictions, had far fewer illnesses and deaths than Sweden. 

As of August 18, 2021, Sweden had the highest number of confirmed COVID-19 cases among the Nordic countries, with over 1.1 million. This was followed with over 334 thousand cases in Denmark, and 146 thousand cases in Norway. The region experienced a ‘second wave’ during winter 2020/21, in which cases were significantly higher than recorded in the initial wave in spring 2021. For example, in December 2020 daily cases in Sweden peaked at 11.4 thousand cases, and daily cases in Denmark peaked at 4.4 thousand in the same month. To this day, the pandemic has cost the lives of over 19 thousand people in the Nordics. Sweden registered by far the largest death toll with over 14.6 thousand deaths, although it has the largest population in the Nordics.

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Facts speak for themselves. 

Indeed they do.  

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53 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Sweden lost far more people than they should have; if Canada had followed their example, we'd have had 3 times as many illnesses and twice as many deaths.   Sweden is at 2012 deaths per million; Canada, 728.

Sweden's neighbors, who did implement lockdowns and restrictions, had far fewer illnesses and deaths than Sweden. 

As of August 18, 2021, Sweden had the highest number of confirmed COVID-19 cases among the Nordic countries, with over 1.1 million. This was followed with over 334 thousand cases in Denmark, and 146 thousand cases in Norway. The region experienced a ‘second wave’ during winter 2020/21, in which cases were significantly higher than recorded in the initial wave in spring 2021. For example, in December 2020 daily cases in Sweden peaked at 11.4 thousand cases, and daily cases in Denmark peaked at 4.4 thousand in the same month. To this day, the pandemic has cost the lives of over 19 thousand people in the Nordics. Sweden registered by far the largest death toll with over 14.6 thousand deaths, although it has the largest population in the Nordics.

Indeed they do.  

But Sweden is largely out of the pandemic.  We’re extending ours.  I’d like to see the non-Covid illness and death rates, because these are impacted by the lockdowns.  I wonder how the suicide and debilitating disease death rates compare.  There’s an argument to be made that a social, active life has better health outcomes overall and is certainly a better quality of life.  I also think many people would rather live ten upbeat months among family and friends and doing activities they enjoy than live a miserable year in isolation.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 There’s an argument to be made that a social, active life has better health outcomes overall and is certainly a better quality of life.  I also think many people would rather live ten upbeat months among family and friends and doing activities they enjoy than live a miserable year in isolation.  

Could be.  But how do you tell per individual?  I've a friend who's parents both say they'd prefer the year in isolation over taking the risk of Covid.   Should my mother have the freedom to infect my friend's parents because she's of the mind that a year of fun is worth the risk of an early death?  

I do believe suicide and overdose deaths have gone up; there's no easy answer to this.  It's pretty clear that staying home/isolating reduces deaths from Covid, and also true that those things can increase risk of suicide and overdose.  I don't know what the numbers are pre-pandemic or what they'll be post pandemic; maybe we have made a choice to save some lives over others. 

But is it really a choice?  People who are sick with Covid show up at the doctor's offices and the hospitals, needing care, wanting to be cured.  Suicidal people tend not to, and many hide their depression.  Drug users also tend to hide their drug use, and seek isolation (or at least like-minded people) in order to do drugs.  It may be that saving people from Covid is only a thing because the other groups are less visible.  

It's also true that a lot of people would have isolated themselves, even without mandates.  That was the approach Sweden took and voluntary compliance with stay-at-home recommendations was fairly high.  I couldn't find numbers on suicides in Sweden, but this paper suggests that the psychological effect was the same as other countries, even without mandates; the natural conclusion is that people coped with increased drug use and suicide.  Still, it may be time will show that Sweden's approach kept suicide/overdose deaths comparable to pre-pandemic levels, even though it cost more in terms of Covid deaths.

It's interesting to me that people who've never concerned themselves with drug overdoses are suddenly using them to argue against policies they happen to dislike today.  Heck, some of them would have even said - pre-pandemic - that drug addicts "choose" that lifestyle, so what if they overdose?  It's just one less druggie to take up health and police resources that could be better used elsewhere.  But now they are useful to an agenda, so 'concern' is on the table.  I imagine it'll disappear soon enough after the pandemic.

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2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Sweden lost far more people than they should have;

If you had read the information and comprehended it, you would have seen that they also were using a very broad definition of "covid death."  Anyone who died within 29 days and had been previously diagnosed with covid was counted as a "covid death".

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On 9/17/2021 at 10:19 AM, Boges said:

If someone commits suicide because they can't party, go indoor dining or lose their low-wage service sector job for awhile (They're begging people to come back now), then their mental health was likely a concern before the pandemic. 

That’s not what drives people into debilitating depression.  Isolation, loneliness, and lack of treatment are leading reasons.  Restaurants are fairly superficial markers of social society.  Leagues, service clubs, church groups, and all sorts of social activities, from drop-in ultimate frisbee to curling or sewing circle.  The impacts to people’s mental health of eliminating all of these communities is probably immense.  

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