Accountability Now Posted August 18, 2021 Report Share Posted August 18, 2021 56 minutes ago, Boges said: Well the more private businesses that buy into the vaccine passport, the less things Unvaxxed people will be able to do. It's not fascist, it's capitalism. But not everything is purely capitalism. Quote But Chris Aylward, the national president of PSAC, told The Globe and Mail on Tuesday that discipline and termination to enforce such a mandate are “totally unacceptable.” PSAC members have rights in the workplace including when it comes to disciplinary measures, he said. “We will take whatever action is necessary to defend our members around this issue,” Mr. Aylward said. “It is very concerning to see national party leaders call for workers to be disciplined or fired over the government’s vaccination requirements.” https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-union-criticizes-party-leaders-promises-to-discipline-unvaccinated/ I'm not a union expert but I know they certainly have some clout especially in public sector jobs. Even MLSE has decided to go the moderate way asking for proof of vaccination or proof of negative test. I think you will start to see more of this from businesses as it allows them to stay open but also to appease their health concerns. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article-maple-leaf-sports-entertainment-will-require-proof-of-vaccination-or/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 18, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2021 If the Test result requirement is widely used it would have to be out-of-pocket. That would be an excellent incentive. Rapid tests go for $40. PCR tests go for North of $150 I think Government workers are having it subsidized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted August 18, 2021 Report Share Posted August 18, 2021 5 hours ago, Boges said: I hope you enjoy your time as a pariah! Thats not a problem for me. Used to it. Used to everyone being wrong but me. Apparently it will be a problem for visible minorities, mostly blacks whom in some areas are as low as 20% vaccinated, god bless ‘em. Will be interesting to see how this demographic likes it when they cant even go in a grocery store in NYC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted August 19, 2021 Report Share Posted August 19, 2021 I know how much you love links, Doges, so here you go. Canadian Ombudsmen Warn Officials of Legal Risks Associated With Vaccine Passports And in the opinion of one provincial health officer: “This virus has shown us that there are inequities in our society that have been exacerbated by this pandemic, and there is no way that we will recommend inequities be increased by the use of things like vaccine passports for services with public access here in British Columbia,” provincial health officer Dr. Bonnie Henry said. She said that it’s her view, but it also has support from the Premier, the health minister and others. “I do think it will be something that will be necessary to support international travel,” she said. “That is something we're working with our colleagues at the Public Health Agency at the federal level to make sure that Canadians have access to travel in the same way that other countries do as well. But it would not be my advice that we have any sort of vaccine passport within British Columbia.” It's good to hear these issues come to light. They were hoping covid would go away before these issues became an epidemic of their own. Not that it matters to those who reside all day in their comfortable homes, wearing a housecoat, and sipping from a snifter of brandy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted August 20, 2021 Report Share Posted August 20, 2021 Well that’s exactly right. What’s getting lost in the impossible idea of perfect safety through vaccine passports is that implementing them not only creates a two-tier society, it adds a layer of bureaucracy and hassle to normal activities. Is it sensible to have to share my vaccine status to eat inside a restaurant or enter a movie theatre? Keep in mind also that the jurisdictions that are implementing them also have indoor mask mandates, so it’s not like flashing your passport will give you a freer experience. It’s just another restriction to add to the list. It’s coercive. Some say that the unvaccinated could gain access by showing a negative test result, but that’s another headache. Perhaps if proof of vaccination or a negative test result for certain activities meant that upon entry you could act restriction-free it would make more sense. I think instead it will just be an additional infringement on basic freedoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted August 20, 2021 Report Share Posted August 20, 2021 13 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: Is it sensible to have to share my vaccine status to eat inside a restaurant or enter a movie theatre? Maybe you should ask to see the vaccine passport of every employee, every other patron before you agree to eat there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2021 On 8/20/2021 at 12:57 AM, Zeitgeist said: Well that’s exactly right. What’s getting lost in the impossible idea of perfect safety through vaccine passports is that implementing them not only creates a two-tier society, it adds a layer of bureaucracy and hassle to normal activities. Is it sensible to have to share my vaccine status to eat inside a restaurant or enter a movie theatre? Keep in mind also that the jurisdictions that are implementing them also have indoor mask mandates, so it’s not like flashing your passport will give you a freer experience. It’s just another restriction to add to the list. It’s coercive. Some say that the unvaccinated could gain access by showing a negative test result, but that’s another headache. Perhaps if proof of vaccination or a negative test result for certain activities meant that upon entry you could act restriction-free it would make more sense. I think instead it will just be an additional infringement on basic freedoms. Quebec seems to have a pretty simple system in the chute. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/how-quebec-vaccine-passport-works-apply-1.6151912 Quote The vaccine passport system applies to anyone aged 13 and over. It will be implemented through an app, called VaxiCode, which is available for download starting Aug. 25 on Apple devices, and soon after, on Android. The app will display your scannable QR code once you have uploaded it. The code contains your name, date of birth and vaccination status and is sent by email by the province, or can be downloaded from this government web page. It is possible to include the QR codes of family members in the same app. A printed-out version of the QR code is also valid. It's not any different than all those ridiculous waivers businesses make you fill out before utilizing their services. You provide the passport and proof that you're the person on that passport. Quite simple actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted August 25, 2021 Report Share Posted August 25, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Boges said: Quebec seems to have a pretty simple system in the chute. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/how-quebec-vaccine-passport-works-apply-1.6151912 It's not any different than all those ridiculous waivers businesses make you fill out before utilizing their services. You provide the passport and proof that you're the person on that passport. Quite simple actually. I’m for mandatory vaccination only if it’s tied to the lifting of all restrictions. Really all restrictions should just be lifted. When the death rate is below flu levels for the vaccinated and ineligible, that’s enough justification to remove all restrictions AND prevent organizations from imposing them. Edited August 25, 2021 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted August 25, 2021 Report Share Posted August 25, 2021 51 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: I’m for mandatory vaccination only if it’s tied to the lifting of all restrictions. Really all restrictions should just be lifted. When the death rate is below flu levels for the vaccinated and ineligible, that’s enough justification to remove all restrictions AND prevent organizations from imposing them. Given PCR testing validity is questionable, one could question if the deaths are lower than flu levels already. We still do not know how many people were infected. From what I have heard the new goal is to attain 0 infections, that is the new line that must be crossed before lifting the restrictions. Why have a realistic goal when one can have a goal that is unattainable and provide indefinite control over a population? On a side note, opening the boarders also makes sense if the desired outcome is to introduce other strains into the country, further infecting the country. Realistically one should close the boarders (other than trade), wait until a new global strain has been identified. The global strain vaccine can be mandated and the boarders reopened once 80% + of the population has been vaccinated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 (edited) The virus isn't going away. Attempts at purity will fail. People are suffering from restrictions in ways that we still haven't grasped. It's going to be another terrible school year for elementary, secondary, and post-secondary students. Assessment standards have collapsed. Children and young adults are being robbed of a social life and decent education. Some students are deferring or dropping out. Vaccinated elderly people are prisoners in their homes. Businesses are struggling. People cannot talk to each other inside a bar or restaurant because they cannot see each other's faces and they are segregated with screens between them. There is no dancing. Travel is mostly domestic. People are continuing to have virtual meetings and work from home while leased offices sit empty. This was unhealthy a year ago. I can't imagine this scenario going into winter. You can't even see a doctor face to face without spending a half day in hospital. No, there's simply no justification for this. I don't respect Trudeau, O'Toole, Ford, or any of our gutless leaders who are talking around the most significant issues. Stop restrictions immediately. They're unjustified. The vast majority of vaccine-eligible people are vaccinated. The ineligible have a lower chance of death from Covid than the flu. Governments must end restrictions and have a public information campaign encouraging people to return to normalcy. People are losing the ability to cope. They can't hold down jobs. They don't know how to talk to people. People are suffering serious mental health problems, addiction, and other non-Covid health problems. Edited August 26, 2021 by Zeitgeist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 14 hours ago, Winston said: Given PCR testing validity is questionable, one could question if the deaths are lower than flu levels already. We still do not know how many people were infected. Cite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 15 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: I’m for mandatory vaccination only if it’s tied to the lifting of all restrictions. Really all restrictions should just be lifted. When the death rate is below flu levels for the vaccinated and ineligible, that’s enough justification to remove all restrictions AND prevent organizations from imposing them. This was the plan once we reached this level of vaccination. I guess Delta changes things. It's still undetermined how much Death and Hospitalization 1/4 of the population can accumulate. We're still in the Summer time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 Winter is coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 1 hour ago, Boges said: Cite https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/lab/virus-requests.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7850182/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: The virus isn't going away. Attempts at purity will fail. People are suffering from restrictions in ways that we still haven't grasped. It's going to be another terrible school year for elementary, secondary, and post-secondary students. Assessment standards have collapsed. Children and young adults are being robbed of a social life and decent education. Some students are deferring or dropping out. Vaccinated elderly people are prisoners in their homes. Businesses are struggling. People cannot talk to each other inside a bar or restaurant because they cannot see each other's faces and they are segregated with screens between them. There is no dancing. Travel is mostly domestic. People are continuing to have virtual meetings and work from home while leased offices sit empty. This was unhealthy a year ago. I can't imagine this scenario going into winter. You can't even see a doctor face to face without spending a half day in hospital. No one is asking for Purity. Except for NZ and Australia, And they're the ones actually suffering now because of a pathetic vaccine program. This is also a pretty pathetic list of things "suffering". No Dancing?!?!? Except on Tiktok, I suppose. Travel is a Global thing. It sucks but it's not a solely Canadian problem. Name me a country where travel is easy in this environment. So are all government conspiring to ruin the social lives of young adults? Edited August 26, 2021 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 25 minutes ago, Winston said: https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/lab/virus-requests.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7850182/ No where in those cites indicate that positivity rate for COVID is in question, using the PCR. The Antigen test is another story, but that's just a screening tool. Cite any Canadian official that is looking to attain COVID Zero. The Goal is to have the disease endemic. Vaccination will accomplish that goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 18 minutes ago, Boges said: No where in those cites indicate that positivity rate for COVID is in question, using the PCR. The Antigen test is another story, but that's just a screening tool. The cites indicate that false positives can and do occur by multiple sources of error, as a result the data can be inaccurate. Since the data is inaccurate the positive rate for covid is questionable, better testing methods are recommended or proper testing must occur before the data can be used. As a result, the CDC has determined that PCR testing shall be replaced by more accurate testing methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 50 minutes ago, Boges said: Cite any Canadian official that is looking to attain COVID Zero. The Goal is to have the disease endemic. Good to know, the goal is to have the disease endemic. How can one country prevent a pandemic when the definition of a pandemic relies on multiple countries or continents? Is Canada in a pandemic or endemic? Depends on how you define locality or region. 52 minutes ago, Boges said: Vaccination will accomplish that goal. Cite. So far it has not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 22 minutes ago, Winston said: The cites indicate that false positives can and do occur by multiple sources of error, as a result the data can be inaccurate. Since the data is inaccurate the positive rate for covid is questionable, better testing methods are recommended or proper testing must occur before the data can be used. As a result, the CDC has determined that PCR testing shall be replaced by more accurate testing methods. That can be the case for a variety of test. Also the case counts are a somewhat irrelevant lead indicator if they don't result in a spike in Hospitalizations and/or death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 19 minutes ago, Winston said: Cite. So far it has not. From Today's Ontario COVID numbers. https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-reports-678-new-covid-19-cases-no-new-deaths-1.5562092 Quote Of those cases, 537 are not fully vaccinated or have an unknown vaccination status and 141 are fully vaccinated. Unvaccinated people and those with only one dose represent 34 per cent of Ontario’s population but generated more than 79 per cent of Thursday’s case tally. Unvaccinated people make-up less than 1/4 of the population but 3/4 of the cases. More than 90% of the people in Ontario ICUs are under or non-vaccinated. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations If you extrapolate these results we'd be in another lockdown situation without the vaccines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 12 minutes ago, Boges said: That can be the case for a variety of test. Also the case counts are a somewhat irrelevant lead indicator if they don't result in a spike in Hospitalizations and/or death. Case counts are extremely relevant, how else does one determine a pandemic vs an endemic? Keep in mind we still have no idea how many people have actually been infected with the virus, we only have generalized estimates. If testing methods are inaccurate, deaths due to covid could be inaccurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 Just now, Winston said: Case counts are extremely relevant, how else does one determine a pandemic vs an endemic? Keep in mind we still have no idea how many people have actually been infected with the virus, we only have generalized estimates. If testing methods are inaccurate, deaths due to covid could be inaccurate. I don't think you've demonstrated that it's completely inaccurate. Regardless the daily count is a snapshot. As you mention, we have no idea how many people got infected and didn't experience symptoms or had mild symptoms they hid. It's a pandemic when Healthcare services are strained to cope with the number people people with serious illness. It's endemic when it doesn't matter how many get infected because only a fraction experience serious illness. Very few vaccinated people experience serious illness even if they are infected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 9 minutes ago, Boges said: From Today's Ontario COVID numbers. https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-reports-678-new-covid-19-cases-no-new-deaths-1.5562092 Unvaccinated people make-up less than 1/4 of the population but 3/4 of the cases. More than 90% of the people in Ontario ICUs are under or non-vaccinated. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations If you extrapolate these results we'd be in another lockdown situation without the vaccines. Boges, please use proper citations, case studies, scientific journals or governing bodies, new media outlets are opinion pieces, I could find you media sites claiming some crazy scientific evidence with no data to support their claim. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations good cite, thank you. I am not against vaccinations, these numbers make sense given a high efficacy. Keep in mind these numbers do not suggest that people with vaccines do not get infected, rather it suggests people with vaccines do not get severely infected. "If you extrapolate these results we'd be in another lockdown situation without the vaccines. " - Please provide a cite to this statement. Again we do not know the number of people who have already been infected with covid and did not get tested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 7 minutes ago, Boges said: I don't think you've demonstrated that it's completely inaccurate. Regardless the daily count is a snapshot. I agree, it is not completely inaccurate. It depends on how they tests are preformed. 9 minutes ago, Boges said: As you mention, we have no idea how many people got infected and didn't experience symptoms or had mild symptoms they hid. Exactly we lack a lot of data. 10 minutes ago, Boges said: It's a pandemic when Healthcare services are strained to cope with the number people people with serious illness. Not by the definition of a pandemic. "an outbreak of a disease that occurs over a wide geographic area (such as multiple countries or continents) and typically affects a significant proportion of the population : a pandemic outbreak of a disease" If we want to change the definition we can discuss such a change? 12 minutes ago, Boges said: It's endemic when it doesn't matter how many get infected because only a fraction experience serious illness. What is that fraction? How many can get infected and how many can be hospitalized? 13 minutes ago, Boges said: Very few vaccinated people experience serious illness even if they are infected. Yes I agree, the data does support this conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 13 minutes ago, Winston said: Boges, please use proper citations, case studies, scientific journals or governing bodies, new media outlets are opinion pieces, I could find you media sites claiming some crazy scientific evidence with no data to support their claim. No they aren't. They're simply reporting figures found in the other link I posted. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/case-numbers-and-spread Quote I am not against vaccinations, these numbers make sense given a high efficacy. Keep in mind these numbers do not suggest that people with vaccines do not get infected, rather it suggests people with vaccines do not get severely infected. It suggests both. The rate is far lower amongst vaccinated, especially when you consider the percentage of the population that is fully vaccinated. However I opined in another thread yesterday that infection could be just as rampant amongst the vaccinated population as unvaccinated, but vaccinated people experience symptoms far less so rarely need to be tested. One figure I've never seen is the "reason" for a majority of tesetests. Is it because you have symptoms and need a test to rule out COVID-19 to return to work, school or child care. Is it testing for travel? Is it random screen where infection isn't suspected. My child had to be test twice last fall to go back to Childcare because he had some COVID-19 symptoms. Both tests were negative. Quote "If you extrapolate these results we'd be in another lockdown situation without the vaccines. " - Please provide a cite to this statement. Again we do not know the number of people who have already been infected with covid and did not get tested. I don't have a cite. I'm making an assessment that cases amongst the unvaccinated have skyrocketed with Delta. Considering the unvaccinated make up around 1/4 of the population you can speculate that numbers would be 4-times as high if no vaccination was available. This can be observed in US states were the vaccination rate is low. COVID cases and deaths are almost as it's been throughout the Pandemic. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/texas/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/mississippi/ And Hospitalization is up too. https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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