Canada at the start of Delta dominated fourth Covid wave, so get vaccinated to save lives.

[cougar]

7 hours ago, Aristides said:

When 75% of your ICU beds have Covid patients in them, they are a problem. I don't understand why so many of you think other ICU patients just disappeared when Covid hit. They are still there.

I am not convinced that vaccinating 100% of Canadians, the remaining 20% against their will, will solve your problem.

You had a problem with a shortage of beds and doctors even before Covid hit.

Let me ask you this, when you called a government agency in pre-covid days, did they not always respond with "we are experiencing higher than normal call volumes, your patience is appreciated"  ??

There you go. They were incapable liars then, they are the same liars now.

[Zeitgeist]

Covid isn’t going anywhere.  Your identity will be tracked to asses compatibility within the new economy.  It’s not a choice anymore.  Hariri was right.  We’re ruled by data feedback algorithms that have nothing to do with democracy.  

Edited September 20, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[myata]

According to the latest numbers, Ontario has vaccinated over 11 million with at least one dose, with the population over 12 of about 12.3 million. Adding two groups, those who are medically exempt from vaccination (1-3%), and those who recovered earlier (up to 1/2 million), the total of population with some or strong protection against current variants should come to just under 12 million. And it means several things, for today and tomorrow:

1. The remaining eligible still not vaccinated fraction is tiny, at most a few percent. Can it cause the upheaval that is happening in the system according to media reports? If it's happening is it due to vaccination issues or the chronic state of the system itself? Everybody's guess as we have no reliable and trusted information to confirm that. But we know that some jurisdictions in the world are doing much better, and the virus is the same.

2. If it cannot be confirmed with confidence, what is the grounds and justification for vaccination-based restrictions? Are they based on reason and science (see above), or another guesswork of anonymous experts?

And for the future. All hinges now on the next, fifth wave in the January - April timeframe. Either we dodge it somehow and then a sigh of relief, though a downside would the expectation that the that rumbling and bumbling policy and crumbling system somehow worked and could be used as-is in such events in the future.

Or we don't. And in that cases (see above) it should be absolutely clear that:

3. The wave would be that of the vaccinated and the policies would not have been successful. Blaming non vaccinated would look very unlikely (given the numbers, above) to plain scapegoat hunting for failing policy.

4. We haven't learned much how to handle these events without escalating drama and a big panacea shotgun (lockdowns, masks, uniform vaccination). And so, likely right back to square one. And then,

5. What path would it leave us with? Mandatory vaccinations in some and growing number of areas are already a fact, just by a policy, no checks and very little if any justification. Ability to work dependent on (continuing?) vaccination. Mandatory universal vaccination? Yes but what is mandatory without enforcement? And can the society be kept safe without isolation of non compliants?

There. This is not a given and maybe we'd still dodge it. But a scary thought is how close we've come to that. And it didn't even take much. And nothing is finished yet.

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by myata

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, myata said:

According to the latest numbers, Ontario has vaccinated over 11 million with at least one dose, with the population over 12 of about 12.3 million. Adding two groups, those who are medically exempt from vaccination (1-3%), and those who recovered earlier (up to 1/2 million), the total of population with some or strong protection against current variants should come to just under 12 million. And it means several things, for today and tomorrow:

1. The remaining eligible still not vaccinated fraction is tiny, at most a few percent. Can it cause the upheaval that is happening in the system according to media reports? If it's happening is it due to vaccination issues or the chronic state of the system itself? Everybody's guess as we have no reliable and trusted information to confirm that. But we know that some jurisdictions in the world are doing much better, and the virus is the same.

2. If it cannot be confirmed with confidence, what is the grounds and justification for vaccination-based restrictions? Are they based on reason and science (see above), or another guesswork of anonymous experts?

And for the future. All hinges now on the next, fifth wave in the January - April timeframe. Either we dodge it somehow and then a sigh of relief, though a downside would the expectation that the that rumbling and bumbling policy and crumbling system somehow worked and could be used as-is in such events in the future.

Or we don't. And in that cases (see above) it should be absolutely clear that:

3. The wave would be that of vaccinated and the policies would not have been successful. Blaming non vaccinated would look very unlikely (given the numbers, above) to plain scapegoat hunt for failing policy.

4. We haven't learned much (how to handle these events without escalating drama and a big panacea shotgun (lockdowns, masks, uniform vaccination). And so, likely right back to square one. And then,

5. What path would it leave us with? Mandatory vaccinations in some and growing number of areas are already a fact, just by a policy, no checks and very little if any justification. Ability to work dependent on (continuing?) vaccination. Mandatory universal vaccination? Yes but what is mandatory without enforcement? And can the society be kept safe without isolation of non compliants?

There. This is not a given and maybe we'd still dodge it. But a scary thought is how close we've come to that. And it didn't even take much. And nothing is finished yet.

 

It sets the precedent for all kinds of new legislation concerning public health. New powers can now be expanded, for the good of mankind. If not kept at bay, there are certain elements who would like to see you become a veritable pincushion for getting shots of every dank potion and elixir these chemist dream up.

Got that? Chemists...

 

[Aristides]

11 hours ago, cougar said:

I am not convinced that vaccinating 100% of Canadians, the remaining 20% against their will, will solve your problem.

You had a problem with a shortage of beds and doctors even before Covid hit.

Let me ask you this, when you called a government agency in pre-covid days, did they not always respond with "we are experiencing higher than normal call volumes, your patience is appreciated"  ??

There you go. They were incapable liars then, they are the same liars now.

I’m not suggesting we vaccinate anyone against their will, I’m just sick of them whining about having to deal with the consequences of their decisions. Yes we did have a problem with a shortage of beds and doctors which is being compounded by those who will not get vaccinated. They need to be held accountable for that.

[myata]

33 minutes ago, Aristides said:

They need to be held accountable for that.

It's not coming clear who though? Those who took countless billions from the public over decades for getting the system into this state? Or those who exercise their right to control what's going into their bodies, whatever we may think of them and their decision? 

I personally think that vaccinations worked and accomplished much for many diseases. They are doing great work so far protecting vulnerable population from severe cases of Covid. But do anonymous experts have a carte blanche to put anything in your body that they think right today but tomorrow maybe oops, not like there's been no precedents? This is a serious question for the society, so no need to sidestep and distract from it with hand waving and scary pictures. Ultimately, in some decades time, it may be a big question, which behavior was more irresponsible.

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, myata said:

It's not coming clear who though? Those who took countless billions from the public over decades for getting the system into this state? Or those who exercise their right to control what's going into their bodies, whatever we may think of them and their decision? 

I personally think that vaccinations worked and accomplished much for many diseases. They are doing great work so far protecting vulnerable population from severe cases of Covid. But do anonymous experts have a carte blanche to put anything in your body that they think right today but tomorrow maybe oops, not like there's been no precedents? This is a serious question for the society, so no need to sidestep and distract from it with hand waving and scary pictures. Ultimately, in some decades time, it may be a big question, which behavior was more irresponsible.

No one has a carte blanch to do anything to your body. No one is responsible for the consequences of your decisions except you. However, others may be made part of the consequences of your decisions and you can’t avoid any consequences of that by simply claiming, my body, my choice, because your choice has a direct effect on others.

[OftenWrong]

“No one is forcing you.” - Neo leftist mantra.

[Shady]

10 minutes ago, Aristides said:

No one has a carte blanch to do anything to your body. No one is responsible for the consequences of your decisions except you. However, others may be made part of the consequences of your decisions and you can’t avoid any consequences of that by simply claiming, my body, my choice, because your choice has a direct effect on others.

That applies to a lot of things, not just covid.  If somebody is afraid of covid, they can get fully vaccinated.  There’s a greater chance of dying in a car accident than from covid at that point.  They can also wear a mask and avoid indoor gatherings.  They could also eat better and exercise.  But it’s not up to other people to inject chemicals into their body to make you or anyone else feel safer or be safer.  That’s a fundamental right.

[BubberMiley]

8 minutes ago, Shady said:

That applies to a lot of things, not just covid.  If somebody is afraid of covid, they can get fully vaccinated.  

Children can't. And we still don't want to overfill our ICUs, even if it's mostly antivaxxers who are suffering. 

[Aristides]

20 minutes ago, Shady said:

That applies to a lot of things, not just covid.  If somebody is afraid of covid, they can get fully vaccinated.  There’s a greater chance of dying in a car accident than from covid at that point.  They can also wear a mask and avoid indoor gatherings.  They could also eat better and exercise.  But it’s not up to other people to inject chemicals into their body to make you or anyone else feel safer or be safer.  That’s a fundamental right.

People  like myata go on about shortages, wasted resources and inefficiencies in the health care system. The average stay for a Covid patient in ICU is 21 days and the average cost is $51,000. The great majority of them are unvaccinated. Maybe the unvaccinated who are complaining about the system should take some accountability for their own bent ideology and their willingness to waste resources and overtax the system even further.

[Shady]

25 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

Children can't. And we still don't want to overfill our ICUs, even if it's mostly antivaxxers who are suffering. 

Luckily children are at much lower risk than adults.  The mortality rate of covid in children is lower than the flu.

[Shady]

11 minutes ago, Aristides said:

People  like myata go on about shortages, wasted resources and inefficiencies in the health care system. The average stay for a Covid patient in ICU is 21 days and the average cost is $51,000. The great majority of them are unvaccinated. Maybe the unvaccinated who are complaining about the system should take some accountability for their own bent ideology and their willingness to waste resources and overtax the system even further.

Not really, because the vast majority of covid hospitalizations and deaths are of the elderly and the sick.  There’s probably a smaller upfront cost of a covid fatality than if we had to care for them for many years in the future.  I bet you that say 5 years from now maybe governments will see a decrease of health care costs because of so many older and sick people dying sooner from covid.

[Aristides]

14 minutes ago, Shady said:

Not really, because the vast majority of covid hospitalizations and deaths are of the elderly and the sick.  There’s probably a smaller upfront cost of a covid fatality than if we had to care for them for many years in the future.  I bet you that say 5 years from now maybe governments will see a decrease of health care costs because of so many older and sick people dying sooner from covid.

At the begining of the month. 32 of the 130 BC COVID ICU cases were under 50 and another 25 were in their sixties. All unvaccinated.

It has become pretty obvious that the anti vaccination movement sees anyone as expendable in order to facilitate them.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Aristides

[Shady]

3 minutes ago, Aristides said:

At the begining of the month. 32 of the 130 BC COVID ICU cases were under 50 and another 25 were in their sixties. All unvaccinated.

So what?

[Aristides]

I’m

1 minute ago, Shady said:

So what?

So they are not all old. Read my edit. 

[Aristides]

Just now, Aristides said:

I’m

So they are not all old. Read my edit. 

Sixty year old has a heart attack and there is no ICU bed. Fuck him, it’s all about me.

[BubberMiley]

20 minutes ago, Shady said:

Luckily children are at much lower risk than adults.  The mortality rate of covid in children is lower than the flu.

Even if you don't care about people getting sick and sick people dying, you still don't want overfilled ICUs. It would be irresponsible to do nothing and allow that to happen. Look what's happening in Alberta after they did what you are advising. 

[myata]

34 minutes ago, Aristides said:

People  like myata go on about shortages, wasted resources and inefficiencies in the health care system. The average stay for a Covid patient in ICU is 21 days and the average cost is $51,000. The great majority of them are unvaccinated. Maybe the unvaccinated who are complaining about the system should take some accountability for their own bent ideology and their willingness to waste resources and overtax the system even further.

People like you go on accepting and rationalizing chronic shortcomings and failures in the system, due inefficient management, and who can tell that not mismanagement? sidetracking and diverting the discussion of obvious problems and issues to fearmongering and justification of poorly supported uniform restrictions on the population. That is nothing new. When a direct question cannot be answered what remains? Why ICU rate in Finland is almost four times lower than in Ontario? Why there's no shortage of ICU beds in Finland? Keep shouting and waving hands, like it always helped in solving complex problems instead of intelligence, competence and professional skill.

Edited September 20, 2021 by myata

[Shady]

5 minutes ago, Aristides said:

I’m

So they are not all old. Read my edit. 

That’s a small snapshot in time and not indicative of the overwhelming data that reflects that 94% of all covid deaths are of 65+ and/or 2.5 co-morbidities.

[Aristides]

3 minutes ago, myata said:

People like you go on accepting and rationalizing chronic shortcomings and failures in the system, due inefficient management, and who can tell that not mismanagement? sidetracking and diverting the discussion of obvious problems and issues to fearmongering and justification of poorly supported uniform restrictions on the population. That is nothing new. When a direct question cannot be answered what remains? Why ICU rate in Finland is almost four times lower than in Ontario? Why there's no shortage of ICU beds in Finland? Keep shouting and waving hands, like it always helped in solving complex problems instead of intelligence, competence and professional skill.

People like you don’t really give a crap about the systems short comings. 

[Shady]

4 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

Even if you don't care about people getting sick and sick people dying, you still don't want overfilled ICUs. It would be irresponsible to do nothing and allow that to happen. Look what's happening in Alberta after they did what you are advising. 

It’s irrelevant.  I don’t want ICUs filled, but that doesn’t override fundamental rights.  Sorry.  Pandemics suck.

[Zeitgeist]

55 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

Children can't. And we still don't want to overfill our ICUs, even if it's mostly antivaxxers who are suffering. 

Kids have a lower death rate from Covid than the flu.  This is the problem exemplified: misconceptions.

[Aristides]

2 minutes ago, Shady said:

It’s irrelevant.  I don’t want ICUs filled, but that doesn’t override fundamental rights.  Sorry.  Pandemics suck.

You suck because everything is about you. If you don’t want ICU’s filled do something about it yourself and stop whining about your rights.

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, Shady said:

It’s irrelevant.  I don’t want ICUs filled, but that doesn’t override fundamental rights.  Sorry.  Pandemics suck.

What ICU’s are filled?  Tilting at windmills.  We’re imposing restrictions for political and psychological reasons that have little bearing on public safety.  There aren’t many at-risk people left to vaccinate.  Kids are quite safe.  End all restrictions.  Let people take responsibility for their Covid safety.