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Canada at the start of Delta dominated fourth Covid wave, so get vaccinated to save lives.


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10 hours ago, Winston said:

I disagree with this idea as it leads to a far worse society.

The negligent population does not deserve to die just because they were negligent.

 

Please read my post again. I wasn't suggesting they should be left to die or even remotely saying they should die. I was clearly suggesting maybe they should be billed for the cost of their care after recovery.

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2 hours ago, Winston said:

We as a society still have yet to understand the problem or the objective desired goal. Instead we react to daily numbers as if they have a precise meaning. 

No disagreement, except who is left to understand the problems from an objective point of view for the long term benefit of the whole society? I don't see many opportunities and possibilities for that. Maybe we played too long with that soft and fuzzy toy idea of benevolent and unlimited bureaucratic power, and maybe went a few steps further than should have under eternal light tunes of "don't fix it" and "it'll fix itself somehow". And what if by now it's past the point of no return?

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5 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Please read my post again. I wasn't suggesting they should be left to die or even remotely saying they should die. I was clearly suggesting maybe they should be billed for the cost of their care after recovery.

My apologies, I misread your post. 

I would still make a similar argument.

Should negligent individuals, requiring medical assistance, be double charged for the medical assistance? What is the purpose of country wide medical insurance if it does not function during an emergency? On what basis is their contract with the medical insurance system void?

Fundamentally someone that breaks their leg playing sports vs someone who is infected with covid, both requiring ICU, would have to double pay by this "idea" or system.  

 

 

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5 hours ago, myata said:

No disagreement, except who is left to understand the problems from an objective point of view for the long term benefit of the whole society? I don't see many opportunities and possibilities for that. Maybe we played too long with that soft and fuzzy toy idea of benevolent and unlimited bureaucratic power, and maybe went a few steps further than should have under eternal light tunes of "don't fix it" and "it'll fix itself somehow". And what if by now it's past the point of no return?

There are many individuals and teams left to understand the problems, but the risk is too high to enter such a spotlight.

The fundamental problem is spread and unrealistic expectations. 

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On 7/30/2021 at 6:20 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

get vaccinated to save lives

 

 

Whose life am I saving?   If I do not care about saving my life, why do you feel threatened?

If you are vaccinated and still carry and transmit the virus, you are no different than an unvaccinated person.  You continue to threaten lives.

 

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8 hours ago, cougar said:

If you are vaccinated and still carry and transmit the virus, you are no different than an unvaccinated person.  You continue to threaten lives.

Well, looks like the question may not have a good answer in binary, categorical terms, so maybe it's worth examining the grades. Let's consider a different, less divisive example like driving. Certainly, driving carries an inherent risk of endangering others. Surely different people drive differently at different times and so the risk varies. How should the society go about minimizing these risks? Should it invest in adjusting the roads or restrictions on drivers? What restrictions can be put on those who drive and how are they defined and introduced? I think these are the questions that should be considered and discussed, hopefully reaching a wide agreement if not an absolute consensus.

Are we doing that?

Edited by myata
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12 hours ago, cougar said:

Whose life am I saving?   If I do not care about saving my life, why do you feel threatened?

If you are vaccinated and still carry and transmit the virus, you are no different than an unvaccinated person.  You continue to threaten lives.

 

Since the probability of getting infected is significantly less if you are vaccinated (and you can only transmit the disease if you are infected) then the probability of transmitting the disease is hence significantly less, Equally important is that all data worldwide prove the fact that the likelihood of hospitalization and ICU is also significantly less for vaccinated people which means if you are vaccinated you are much less likely to occupy a bed which otherwise will be available to a cancer patient or heart attack victim or people with other serious illnesses needing urgent care.

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1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Since the probability of getting infected is significantly less if you are vaccinated.

Who says that?  When are you less likely - one month after you are injected, 5 months or 7 months or more?

This narrative is conceived to serve an agenda.

As for the patients in hospitals, don't get me going.  There has always been a shortage of doctors associated with very long wait times.  Nobody did a thing then.  But now lets blame the whole situation on COVID and particularly on the unvaccinated people.  How convenient!

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31 minutes ago, cougar said:

Who says that?  When are you less likely - one month after you are injected, 5 months or 7 months or more?

This narrative is conceived to serve an agenda.

As for the patients in hospitals, don't get me going.  There has always been a shortage of doctors associated with very long wait times.  Nobody did a thing then.  But now lets blame the whole situation on COVID and particularly on the unvaccinated people.  How convenient!

Well if you reject all the scientific evidence that it is 95% effective in preventing infection gradually reduced in time to 50% after 6 months (as why we need booster shots after 6 months) then nothing much I can do about it. Anything more than 0% is effective and anything more than 50% is acceptably effective.

Come on now, yes we had already shortage of beds, doctors and nurses but covid patients have made it much worse, Even Urgent elective surgeries are being cancelled in Ontario and likely elsewhere. Do not deny the obvious facts,

Edited by CITIZEN_2015
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28 minutes ago, cougar said:

Who says that?  When are you less likely - one month after you are injected, 5 months or 7 months or more?

This narrative is conceived to serve an agenda.

As for the patients in hospitals, don't get me going.  There has always been a shortage of doctors associated with very long wait times.  Nobody did a thing then.  But now lets blame the whole situation on COVID and particularly on the unvaccinated people.  How convenient!

When 75% of your ICU beds have Covid patients in them, they are a problem. I don't understand why so many of you think other ICU patients just disappeared when Covid hit. They are still there.

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5 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Finland has a high vaccination rate and  restrictions. It is also experiencing a surge in cases among the young and unvaccinated and is boosting ICU capacity.

Vaccination level in Finland is high, but still lower than in Ontario. The numbers for hospitalizations and ICU recently posted in another thread, they are significantly better. The toll per capita is less than a third of Ontario's. The conclusion that an impartial observer has to make from these facts is that a talent in dramatic arts is not necessarily a good token of an effective management in the public health system.

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7 minutes ago, myata said:

Vaccination level in Finland is high, but still lower than in Ontario. The numbers for hospitalizations and ICU recently posted in another thread, they are significantly better. The toll per capita is less than a third of Ontario's. The conclusion that an impartial observer has to make from these facts is that a talent in dramatic arts is not necessarily a good token of an effective management in the public health system.

Ontario has three times the population of Ontario. They may have a better system but it is a national system with a small population, not a balkanized provincial system like Canada. Finland is still experiencing an increase of hospitalizations and personnel shortage with the fourth wave, same as everyone else. 

 

https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finland_looks_to_boost_icu_capacity_as_infections_rise/11583228https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/news-in-brief/19158-finland-s-nursing-shortage-leads-to-decrease-in-hospital-beds.html

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14 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

Old Jab-Nazi trick. When somebody starts talking about recent happenings roll out the links to old news and data.

 

You want something more recent?

I can't help it if you  are too lazy to look stuff up for yourself.

 

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-08-restrictions-finland-covid-cases.html

Edited by Aristides
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A very good story. Indeed it makes a lot of sense that "hospital authorities across Finland are preparing for a surge in demand for intensive care units against the backdrop of a sharp increase in Covid-19 cases in recent weeks" rather than playing dramatic performances in the media. From the recently posted numbers (hospital protests topic) the ICU utilization these days was 19 and from the article just one university hospital has 70 to 80 beds.

It's not that people don't have any problems but how they approach them and solve them. With dramatic art or good planning, sufficient resources, well organized work and professional competence.

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24 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You want something more recent?

I can't help it if you  are too lazy to look stuff up for yourself.

 

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-08-restrictions-finland-covid-cases.html

I love it that you still think you can lie to me. 

That's more than a month old. Seriously? You didn't think I'd check the date.

Not sure what you or your source is hyperventilatiing about anyway. Nothing that scary has been happening in Finland.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/finland/

Their cases seem to decreasing since about mid-august shortly after your scare story was posted. Daily deaths was never that spooky a stat. Maybe 10 or so deaths one day then several days to a week of no deaths and on like that.

Edited by Infidel Dog
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I notice that's kind of the MO with Hystera-links. They'll appear right at the peak of a wave and make all sorts of claims on what's going to be necessary then the curve will dip down and plummet and the hysterics will sit there quiet like that singing frog in the old Warner Brothers cartoons. 

But then there's the hysteriacs helpers who will dig through old peak wave scare stories and present them like current fact.

Or they'll do like you did Aristides, with  the Florida plummet in covid problems stat since DeSantis brought in the MonoClonal antibody treatments. They'll try to baffle you with a total cases stat from the beginning of the scourge when you were just talking about a recent plummet in cases over a month or so.

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31 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

I love it that you still think you can lie to me. 

That's more than a month old. Seriously? You didn't think I'd check the date.

Not sure what you or your source is hyperventilatiing about anyway. Nothing that scary has been happening in Finland.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/finland/

Their cases seem to decreasing since about mid-august shortly after your scare story was posted. Daily deaths was never that spooky a stat. Maybe 10 or so deaths one day then several days to a week of no deaths and on like that.

 

Cases in Canada have been decreasing as well, except for the prairies where they are going through the roof.  But we have already discussed that. 

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We have, except there are those who don't seem to want to notice it's a variant wave and this happens and has happened all over. The Prairies are just late to the party but there's nothing new here. They'll be making a big deal of it until the cases start to dissipate as they usually do. Then a couple of months later they'll be giving us stats from Alberta like it's still happening.

The covid is here to stay. Places like Sweden and Florida have found common sense ways to deal with it. What they're calling "vaccines" are being revealed as little more than a condom with a pin prick through it at best or possibly at least a therapeutic. If somebody wants to take the risk based on that, they should go for it. Just don't tell me you need to go Nazi on me if I won't.

Edited by Infidel Dog
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8 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Well if you reject all the scientific evidence that it is 95% effective in preventing infection gradually reduced in time to 50% after 6 months (as why we need booster shots after 6 months) then nothing much I can do about it. Anything more than 0% is effective and anything more than 50% is acceptably effective.

Scientific evidence generated by doctors associated with the vaccines who may be paid to make such statements.  The vaccine manufacturers are raking in billions of dollars for an unproven product.  "more than 50%"  can be acceptably effective for you, but not for me.

You see, since I do not trust our government for anything, I cannot trust them on the vaccines either.  They've told me one too many lies already.

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