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Canada at the start of Delta dominated fourth Covid wave, so get vaccinated to save lives.


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1 minute ago, Winston said:

I 100% agree, it is a snapshot and should not be used to indicate any risk factor. Just like they should not be taking a snap shot of a day or a week as a representation of any risk factor. 

Do vaccines prevent higher number of ICU numbers, yes. 

Do vaccines prevent higher number of hospitalization numbers, yes. 

Do vaccines prevent higher number of general infections? Currently inconclusive. 

Data for the past few weeks also indicate they reduce the risk of infections but even if not you admitted that vaccines reduce the risk of hospitalizations and ICUs in other words for vaccinated people it becomes more like a flu and THAT ALONE IS GREAT and most important to have the vaccines in as many as possible to prevent overwhelming our health care so that cancer and heart patients can also receive care.

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5 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Data for the past few weeks also indicate they reduce the risk of infections but even if not you admitted that vaccines reduce the risk of hospitalizations and ICUs in other words for vaccinated people it becomes more like a flu and THAT ALONE IS GREAT and most important to have the vaccines in as many as possible to prevent overwhelming our health care so that cancer and heart patients can also receive care.

" you admitted that vaccines reduce the risk of hospitalizations and ICUs" - As I said before I am not against vaccines, I am against the improper use of data.  For proper data analysis we need to analyze a longer time period before making any scientific conclusions.  

There are still a lot of unanswered questions about the data presented, that should be public knowledge. 

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However...

"If vaccines are fueling ‘variants’ that will require new booster shots in perpetuity, they may be setting the world up for a real catch-22."

Also because the vaccinated also spread the virus - most likely as much possibly more than the unvaccinated - and because there are so many more vaccinated who are you protecting with mandates, lockdowns and passports.

Who does Australia for example and warning think they're protecting with their draconian measures and their Hotel Covid Concentration Camps when natural immunity and immunity by surviving infection is already on the rise and might be a better solution.

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I've been investigating stuff I don't see at YouTube, this morning.

This one might be there I just didn't see it. It's fox news on the stabbings of the anti-vaxxers at their rally. Yes, stabbings with an S. There were 2 of them.

https://vidmax.com/video/207038-man-is-arrested-for-attempted-murder-during-the-mostly-peaceful-stabbing-of-anti-vaccine-mandate-protester

Here's one I'd be surprised if YouTube allowed you to see. "Anecdotal evidence" maybe. But there's video.

Skin Lesions - heard about them? Probably not. But if you'd stepped outside Big Pharma and the resetters influence you would have. This girl took Pfizer, then this happened. Skin lesions, but there's a little more to it than just that and it's pretty horrific.

https://vidmax.com/video/207087-woman-has-an-experience-from-hell-after-second-pfizer-shot-huge-lesions-in-her-mouth-black-urine-no-platelets-in-her-blood

Here's some more anecdotal video evidence but if you're wondering what makes an anti-vaxxer that's only because this kind of stuff isn't available to you. This one's the boxer Oscar De La Hoya. He's in a hospital bed wondering how he got the Chi-Comm virus. He's double vaccinated.

https://vidmax.com/video/207065-double-vaccinated-oscar-de-la-hoya-wonders-outloud-fron-his-hospital-bed-what-are-the-chances-of-me-getting-covid

Edited by Infidel Dog
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1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Read your own post.

ICU numbers doubled compared to the last year, with similar number of cases and hospitalizations? 

Jesus Christ. I have nothing more to say to you when you reject such clear evidence.

This is a curious case of extreme naivite, given our previous, and not not so distant, experiences with contact tracing data (with three "unknown" categories and one irrelevant ("close contact") out of five) and most recently, "vaccination status unknown" all from the same source. Yes, and "travel from Wuhan", too. Has it ever occurred to you that data does not descend on us from the Heavens but is prepared and published by someone, and those someones may not be flawless (honestly or otherwise)? OK, let's assume it's honest and geniune (the naivite not data - in it nothing can be taken on faith and assumed, and everything has to be understood and explained).

And so, we have to keep trying to understand, again: how have ICU numbers more than doubled: from 78 to 160, with the same number of cases and hospitalizations, and no significant increase in morbidity that was reported for the delta variant?

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11 minutes ago, myata said:

This is a curious case of extreme naivite, given our previous, and not not so distant, experiences with contact tracing data (with three "unknown" categories and one irrelevant ("close contact") out of five) and most recently, "vaccination status unknown" all from the same source. Yes, and "travel from Wuhan", too. Has it ever occurred to you that data does not descend on us from the Heavens but is prepared and published by someone, and those someones may not be flawless (honestly or otherwise)? OK, let's assume it's honest and geniune (the naivite not data - in it nothing can be taken on faith and assumed, and everything has to be understood and explained).

And so, we have to keep trying to understand, again: how have ICU numbers more than doubled: from 78 to 160, with the same number of cases and hospitalizations, and no significant increase in morbidity that was reported for the delta variant?

Are you trying to figure out the mechanism by which the cases increase or decrease? 

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42 minutes ago, Winston said:

Are you trying to figure out the mechanism by which the cases increase or decrease? 

The mechanism(s) by which a) the same number of cases and b) hospitalizations in last October 2020, links above, produced less than a half of ICU admissions compared to the current numbers for non vaccinated (78 to 160), given that delta variant has not been reported as significantly more severe.  What does it mean if almost two thirds of hospitalizations are escalated to ICU if there's no evidence that the illness is extremely dangerous?

Only two possibilities come to mind: either a massive fluctuation resulting in higher number of severe cases than expected statistically; or the reporting practice has changed, silently and without notice. The result is of course that on the sight of it, without going into detail, a much higher ICU number is seen by the public daily, reinforcing the outbreak concerns and fear.

Some may not notice or not care but looking at such events as cited earlier, it's getting hard to avoid the feeling that either those working with data don't always know what they are doing; or someone for some reason is deliberately withholding accurate and complete information; and I'm not sure which one is better.

Edited by myata
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3 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I can't believe you reject such an obvious reason!!!!!! Because it is Delta variant now causing more severe sickness than last year among unvaccinated (96% of hospitalizations).

More severe does not explain why you also have a much higher number of cases.

I also have no idea why vaccinated and supposedly protected people like you still fear for their lives and want to push the remaining 20% of the population - a huge number of people, to be vaccinated against their will.

The 80% who got vaccinated did that due to misinformation, empty hopes and because some were forced by employers and service providers.   Some of these people had adverse effects to the vaccine and a number of them died.

But those cases are swept under the rug, since they are uncomfortable.

Edited by cougar
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2 minutes ago, cougar said:

More severe does not explain why you also have a much higher number of cases.

I also have no idea why vaccinated and supposedly protected people like you still fear for their lives and want to push the remaining 20% of the population - a huge number of people, to be vaccinated against their will.

The 80% who got vaccinated did that due to misinformation, empty hopes and because some were forced by employers and service providers.   Some of these people had adverse effects to the vaccine and a number of them died.

But those cases are swept under the rug, since they are uncomfortable.

More transmissible as well. By 60% more transmissible. Now you have all your answers.

Because there are quite a few fully vaccinated one still in ICU even though 97% are unvaccinated so the risk for fully vaccinated is not zero. In addition unlike the unvaccinated crowd I am not thinking of myself only. I am thinking of all non-covid seriously ill patients who have no bed for them left or their surgeries have to be cancelled or delayed because the crowd of unvaccinated people are filling up emergencies, ICUs and hospital beds.

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22 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

You crack me up man. You want to bloviate on what you see as your superior intelligence because you can click on a lefty biased site

You think all fact checking sites are 'lefty biased'.

22 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

Are you? Are you really that smart? 

Compared to you? You betcha.

22 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

What part of the Liberty Daily's claim did you check and find wanting? You know...this claim:

No-Lockdown Sweden Bans Travel from Ultra-Vaxxed, Locked Down Israel Over Covid Spikes

Yeah, that would be the part. It didn't. It simply continued forward an ongoing ban on all non-eu travel. Israel is just one of the countries involved but your far right web site pretended it was them the ban was targeted at.

22 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

They also tell us Israel is highly vaxxed with a soaring rate of infections.

And like here, most of them are among the unvaxxed. Big surprise your alt-right conspiracy site never mentioned that!

 

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10 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Just saw the data from Israel. It really looks like the “vaccine” has failed.

Given the majority is vaccinated but by far most of the cases are from the unvaccinated I'd say your attempt to rationalize data has failed.

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4 hours ago, myata said:

Exclamations don't add evidence. There's no scientific evidence that delta variant statistically is more dangerous.

Translation: There is no scientific evidence I will accept that says delta is more dangerous.

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2 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

True believers have some champions though. I hear antifa stabbed somebody at one anti-vax rally and shot that Proud Boy, Tiny Toese in the leg at another.

But anti-vaxxers are the radicals, right? 

And morons, and tend to be Truptards.

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29 minutes ago, myata said:

The mechanism(s) by which a) the same number of cases and b) hospitalizations in last October 2020, links above, produced less than a half of ICU admissions compared to the current numbers for non vaccinated (78 to 160), given that delta variant has not been reported as significantly more severe.  What does it mean if almost two thirds of hospitalizations are escalated to ICU if there's no evidence that the illness is extremely dangerous?

Only two possibilities come to mind: either a massive fluctuation resulting in higher number of severe cases than expected statistically; or the reporting practice has changed, silently and without notice. The result is of course that on the sight of it, without going into detail, a much higher ICU number is seen by the public daily, reinforcing the outbreak concerns and fear.

Some may not notice or not care but looking at such events as cited earlier, it's getting hard to avoid the feeling that either those working with data don't always know what they are doing; or someone for some reason is deliberately withholding accurate and complete information; and I'm not sure which one is better.

These are good questions, to which I do not have the answer. I have been unable to ascertain answers to the many questions relevant to the data that must be addressed before a conclusive analysis can be completed. 

Questions pertaining to group testing data, transmission of viral load data, total infection data and underlying conditional medical infection data should be publicly addressed. 

I wish I could answer the mechanism question, but without more specific data this is difficult. 

 

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26 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

More transmissible as well. By 60% more transmissible. Now you have all your answers.

They won't accept logic or evidence. They're committed to their own irrational conspiracy theories. It's like trying to convince a truther about 9/11. Nothing will ever work because their whole existence is bound up in them being the 'special people' who see through the entire world conspiring to perpetuate a giant fraud for some... reason they can't quite explain.

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3 minutes ago, Winston said:

Maybe I have missed a study, but as far as I know this is still inconclusive and depends on socialization behavior of each group. 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2021/08/421171/how-dangerous-delta-variant-heres-what-science-says

Edited by Argus
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6 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

If 80% of population wishes it and all medical experts agree to it and say it saves lives then so be it however, extremely hypothetical situations very unlikely/

Latest on vaccine effectiveness:

On Saturday, the Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table reported that vaccination continues to massively reduce risk of infection, hospitalization and ICU admission.

 

The Province of Ontario has a very recent history of putting out misleading vaxx stats, and they also vaccinated the vast majority of people who wouldn't have been at risk of hospitalization and ICU admission to pad the vaxxes' stats. You understand that, right?

Do you understand that vaccinating 12-50 yr-olds was just 'padding the stats'? It's like giving men 90 men and 10 women Pamprin, and then saying "only 4% of the people in a recent study experienced pain from menstrual cramps when using Pamprin". 

 

You need to understand that there are lobbyists who give politicians all kinds of juicy perks for pulling the right strings. A perfect example of that was SNC Lavalin - one of the biggest lobbyists in Canada, with a court-documented history of giving bribes in the millions of dollars to Canadian officials, who had a law created for them by the PM, and who were also able to get the PM to place undue pressure on the AG to use that law when the AG had decided that it was not the right thing to do. 

Lobbyists are a very big deal. 

 

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Winston I have a lot o

 

11 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

 

Do you understand that vaccinating 12-50 yr-olds was just 'padding the stats'? It's like giving men 90 men and 10 women Pamprin, and then saying "only 4% of the people in a recent study experienced pain from menstrual cramps when using Pamprin". 

 

Do you understand that even though those 12 to 50 year olds may not have died or even hospitalized (even though recently there are increasing number of young healthy people in hospitals due to Delta) BUT they could still transmit the virus to more vulnerable crowd of over 60 years or you understand but you only think of yourself never mind those elderly who may catch it from sons and daughters and younger unvaccinated crowd?

Edited by CITIZEN_2015
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18 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Protest all you want but we the pro-vaxers making the overwhelming majority are winning the battles and the war.

"Pro-vaxxers" is an alternative way of saying "the people who believe everything that they are told without question."

You're not 'pro-vaxx' because you studied the topic closely and tried to understand the stats yourself. You're pro-vaxx because Trudeau, Pelosi, CNN and CBC are wildly pro-vaxx and you don't have a filter in your head that helps you to think for yourself. 

Just remember - the Gov't of Ontario published a study that said that 92% of Ontarians who got sick with covid between Dec 14th and Aug 7th were unvaxxed, and they promote it as if it means something.

Would you care to guess how many of those people were dbl vaxxed between Dec 14th, when the data started to be collected, and Feb 28th? There were almost zero people dbl-vaxxed, and 14M who were not dbl-vaxxed. How is that 'a study'? 

Do you know how many people contract the flu, and covid, during Dec to February, compared to June and July? 

Do you understand that the gov't of Ontario was being wickedly deceptive by posting that kind of a study as evidence of anything?

You're not a 'pro-vaxxer', you're a person who regurgitates propaganda.

 

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26 minutes ago, Argus said:

Given the majority is vaccinated but by far most of the cases are from the unvaccinated I'd say your attempt to rationalize data has failed.

That's not what I read. Already posted this link today, but this is for those who don't habla.

Israel was down to a handful of daily COVID cases
CBC News, Sept. 1 2021
Israeli health officials reported what appeared to be a waning efficacy of the vaccine, including among those who had been double vaccinated. Data showed that of the serious cases being admitted to hospital, around 60 per cent of patients were people who had been fully vaccinated.

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