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Taiwan, Crimea, Hongkong


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If I were a western leader, I would let China (CCP) have Taiwan and Russia have eastern Ukraine (Donetsk and even further west) .

For what?

Nothing. Maybe a guarantee that Estonia/Baltics etc will be free, protected, part of NATO. Belarus will be EU/Russian, as it chooses. A guarantee that Japan and Vietnam will be free, protected. Korea remains to be decided.

As they say, oral Chinese and Russian guarantees are not worth the paper they're written on.  But I figure that no dictator in China nor Russia now or in the future wants to dominate the world. Any Chinese or Russian leader for the foreseeable future simply wants to consolidate geography.

At present, unlike Maoists or the Soviet Union of past, they are no threat to the western world.

======

It is not the job of a politician in the democratic west to enlighten heathens abroad, In this 21st century, a western politician's job is to ensure that heathens do not attack us.

JFK famously said that he didn't care about the science of going to the Moon. He simply wanted to show that America could do it.

Edited by August1991
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9 hours ago, August1991 said:

If I were a western leader, I would let China (CCP) have Taiwan and Russia have eastern Ukraine (Donetsk and even further west) .

How generous of you to consign tens of millions of people to brutal dictatorships because... well, why not, eh? Less trouble that way, maybe? Hey, let's give them Quebec, while we're at it.

 

9 hours ago, August1991 said:

For what?

Nothing. Maybe a guarantee that Estonia/Baltics etc will be free, protected, part of NATO. Belarus will be EU/Russian, as it chooses. A guarantee that Japan and Vietnam will be free, protected. Korea remains to be decided.

As they say, oral Chinese and Russian guarantees are not worth the paper they're written on.

Nor are their written guarantees worth anything either.

9 hours ago, August1991 said:

But I figure that no dictator in China nor Russia now or in the future wants to dominate the world.

You figure, do you? China spreading out over the world buying up governments, industries and resources, telling all ethnic Chinese everywhere their primary loyalty should be to China, building up its blue-water navy with multiple aircraft carriers, increasing the size of its nuclear forces. And you figure they're not much interested in dominating anyone?

Edited by Argus
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52 minutes ago, Argus said:

1. How generous of you to consign tens of millions of people to brutal dictatorships because... well, why not, eh? Less trouble that way, maybe? Hey, let's give them Quebec, while we're at it.

2. Nor are their written guarantees worth anything either.

3. You figure, do you? China spreading out over the world buying up governments, industries and resources, telling all ethnic Chinese everywhere their primary loyalty should be to China, building up its blue-water navy with multiple aircraft carriers, increasing the size of its nuclear forces. And you figure they're not much interested in dominating anyone?

1. I agree with your stance on moral and practical grounds.  The 'freedom project' of liberalism needs to stand up against despots because it is right and because it protects our interests, current and future.  

But populations have been less willing to submit their military people to places like Afghanistan and even the rightist populists starting with Ron Paul have been against it.

2. I agree, but I think that we need to look for that moment when they accept the inevitable on this.

3. Stop scaring me.

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So the people of Taiwan and Ukraine get no say. Why would anyone else trust the West or NATO in future? If I lived in one of the Baltic States I sure wouldn't. Why would Russia or China honour any guarantee in future? China guaranteed not to mess with Hong Kong for 50 years. How is that working out?

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On 7/30/2021 at 2:44 PM, Argus said:

You figure, do you? China spreading out over the world buying up governments, industries and resources, telling all ethnic Chinese everywhere their primary loyalty should be to China, building up its blue-water navy with multiple aircraft carriers, increasing the size of its nuclear forces. And you figure they're not much interested in dominating anyone?

Argus,

This is the key point.

"China spreading out over the world buying up governments, industries and resources, telling all ethnic Chinese everywhere their primary loyalty should be to China... "

So what? Let the Chinese do what they want in the world.

====

This so-called Chinese threat is nothing like the threat of Soviet Communism, Hitler's Nazis or the Japanese in the 1930s.

Putin merely wants to consolidate Russia: an age-old Tsarist task.

The CCP, like Lee Kwan Yew, merely wants to impose order.

IMHO, neither are a threat to the West.

====

The threat to the West?

The world has several hundred million people, born every year, and we must bring these kids into the world of the Enlightenment. No one is born with the ability to take a derivative.     

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14 hours ago, August1991 said:

"China spreading out over the world buying up governments, industries and resources, telling all ethnic Chinese everywhere their primary loyalty should be to China... "

So what? Let the Chinese do what they want in the world.

Uhm. No.

14 hours ago, August1991 said:

The CCP, like Lee Kwan Yew, merely wants to impose order.

right. Order. Order at the point of a gun. Repression over everything we see, do, hear and say. No thanks.

Here is China bringing order to Tibet. They sure are working hard at... trying to not get her brains spattered on their uniforms...

 

 

 

a963305.jpg

Edited by Argus
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On 8/1/2021 at 12:37 PM, Argus said:

....

Here is China bringing order to Tibet. They sure are working hard at... trying to not get her brains spattered on their uniforms...

...

How is what happens in Tibet a threat to the West? To liberal, western civilization?

Unlike Soviet Communism, China is not an ideology that, as Khrushchev said, would bury us.

China is not a religion that, as Islamists claimed, must defend itself by sending planes into buildings.

Nor is China like Imperial Japan or Hitlerite Germany with geographic desires.

====

Make no mistake. 1. I'm no apologist of the CCP. 2. I firmly believe in the Enlightenment of Voltaire.

But 3. In this world, we have to teach several hundred million kids every decade or so, not only how to read but also how to take a derivative.

Unlike Lenin and Mao of the past, Russia and China nowadays do not threaten us. 

 

   

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On 7/30/2021 at 7:03 PM, Infidel Dog said:

Well yeah...just give him Czechoslovakia, because that's all he'll want. Right Mr. Chamberlain?

False comparison.

But BTW, the "Czech Republic" was in fact part of Prussia (Saxony). And Slovakia was part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire - a multicultural society that I find admirable.

======

IMV, the sophisticated, multicultural Austrian-Hungarian society collapsed not because of foreign threats but because its elite was divorced from the life of ordinary people.

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On 7/30/2021 at 5:57 PM, Aristides said:

So the people of Taiwan and Ukraine get no say. Why would anyone else trust the West or NATO in future? If I lived in one of the Baltic States I sure wouldn't. Why would Russia or China honour any guarantee in future? China guaranteed not to mess with Hong Kong for 50 years. How is that working out?

Did the people of Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia or Laos - or Hungary, Czechoslovakia - get any say in our decision the draw lines on the map? Or fight against the Soviets/Maoists on their land?

=====

Look. In 1960, JFK was right to stand up to the Soviets and Maoists.

But the CCP and Putin's Russia are fundamentally different. They're not a threat. JFK and Reagan won that war (not Nixon BTW, but that's a discussion for another thread.)

The West, the liberal-thinking West, faces a different threat.  

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On 7/30/2021 at 2:44 PM, Argus said:

....

China spreading out over the world buying up governments, industries and resources, telling all ethnic Chinese everywhere their primary loyalty should be to China, building up its blue-water navy with multiple aircraft carriers, increasing the size of its nuclear forces. And you figure they're not much interested in dominating anyone?

Argus,

I can't believe that I am writing this. But how is what Biden's Democrats did ultimately different from what the CCP does or Putin's apparitchiks do? 

=====

If Chinese abroad have good money and can pay for goods/services, freely agreed to from foreigners, by what right do you or I oppose - except jealousy.

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  • 4 months later...

By that logic we should also demonize Canada for it's role in the residential schools where they murdered children, molested them and left them to starve. 

China looks nothing like that anymore, neither does Tibet for that matter.

People in glass houses should not throw stones.

On 8/1/2021 at 12:37 PM, Argus said:

Uhm. No.

right. Order. Order at the point of a gun. Repression over everything we see, do, hear and say. No thanks.

Here is China bringing order to Tibet. They sure are working hard at... trying to not get her brains spattered on their uniforms...

 

 

 

a963305.jpg

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/17/2021 at 11:24 AM, ChristopherCross said:

By that logic we should also demonize Canada for it's role in the residential schools where they murdered children, molested them and left them to starve.

 

WTF?

On this, I agree with Argus. There is no comparison with any Cdn State/government and the CCP.

====

I happen to admire Deng Xiaoping.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/4/2021 at 12:23 AM, August1991 said:

Argus,

I can't believe that I am writing this. But how is what Biden's Democrats did ultimately different from what the CCP does or Putin's apparitchiks do? 

=====

If Chinese abroad have good money and can pay for goods/services, freely agreed to from foreigners, by what right do you or I oppose - except jealousy.

Well let's see now. How about on the grounds that...

THEY POISONED THE ENTIRE GAWD DAMN PLANET?

Shills for CCP money. Disgusting people.!

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On 8/3/2021 at 11:50 PM, August1991 said:

How is what happens in Tibet a threat to the West? To liberal, western civilization?

Unlike Soviet Communism, China is not an ideology that, as Khrushchev said, would bury us.

China is not a religion that, as Islamists claimed, must defend itself by sending planes into buildings.

Nor is China like Imperial Japan or Hitlerite Germany with geographic desires.

====

Make no mistake. 1. I'm no apologist of the CCP. 2. I firmly believe in the Enlightenment of Voltaire.

But 3. In this world, we have to teach several hundred million kids every decade or so, not only how to read but also how to take a derivative.

Unlike Lenin and Mao of the past, Russia and China nowadays do not threaten us. 

 

   

Yup.

A disgusting CCP shill.

You're dismissed. 

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  • 1 month later...

The elephant in the corner of the room that the looney left media ignores is the total ineffectiveness of the UN.  Putin (and Xi) simply giving them the raspberry and carrying on with his own agenda.

There was a comment that there is no longer the ideological dogma of Communism that defines Russia and China's ambitions to "dominate the world", but in both cases it is/was not the ideology that drove these states to their extremes, it was/is the desire of absolute authoritarian dictatorships to do whatever they please to enact wild schemes hatched in the back rooms of their centers of power.   Given good government ANY political ideology could work well for the people of a country and the world as neighbours.   What seperates good government from bad (IMHO, of course) is that good government represents what is good for and desired by the people (within their borders and beyond) and bad government operates by giving a privileged few the power to do things in THEIR best interests or ambitions.

On the "China wanting do dominate the world" front: that ship sailed long ago.  One Road, One Belt is doing exactly that.   And we were stupid and greedy enough to finance that expansionism through WalMart.

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58 minutes ago, cannuck said:

1. the total ineffectiveness of the UN.  Putin (and Xi) simply giving them the raspberry and carrying on with his own agenda.

2. Given good government ANY political ideology could work well for the people of a country and the world as neighbours.   What seperates good government from bad (IMHO, of course) is that good government represents what is good for and desired by the people (within their borders and beyond) and bad government operates by giving a privileged few the power to do things in THEIR best interests or ambitions.

3. And we were stupid and greedy enough to finance that expansionism through WalMart.

1. Probably true but other than Iraq, have they effectively worked to counter an invasion ?  Pretty difficult with the alliances, the veto options etc.
2. Sounds good
3. Don't forget Apple, GM and everything else we import and export...
 

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On 2/22/2022 at 7:00 AM, Michael Hardner said:

3. Don't forget Apple, GM and everything else we import and export...
 

The solution to the idiotic things we did would have been - and still COULD be to set actual standards that have to be met to enter our market.  Things such as environmental, product safety, worker protection, etc. standards that WE have to meet whether we sell domestically or export.

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20 minutes ago, cannuck said:

1. The solution to the idiotic things we did would have been - and still COULD be to set actual standards that have to be met to enter our market. 
2. Things such as environmental, product safety, worker protection, etc. standards that WE have to meet whether we sell domestically or export.

1. They have done that in the past, but you can't expect us to set the laws on both sides of the border, nor can you expect us to compete on labour costs.
2. Those are in some of our agreements, but as with Carbon Reduction it's hard to enforce globally.

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10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. They have done that in the past, but you can't expect us to set the laws on both sides of the border, nor can you expect us to compete on labour costs.
2. Those are in some of our agreements, but as with Carbon Reduction it's hard to enforce globally.

We need to set and enforce these laws for products to cross INTO Canada over our borders.   EASY for NAFTA and EEC countries already but impossible for 99% of crap made of Chinesium.

(in case you were wondering: that is some mysterious material that is sometimes an insulating plastic and others a conducting metal - changes state on any whim - and almost always toxic as shit).

ANYTHING to do with "carbon reduction" is such a vast political question it needs an entire forum of its own to reveal to BS associated, so let's just leave that out of this particular discussion.

Edited by cannuck
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16 minutes ago, cannuck said:

1. We need to set and enforce these laws for products to cross INTO Canada over our borders.   EASY for NAFTA and EEC countries already but impossible for 99% of crap made of Chinesium.

2. ANYTHING to do with "carbon reduction" is such a vast political question it needs an entire forum of its own to reveal to BS associated, so let's just leave that out of this particular discussion.

1. So why not just say we are going to block imports from China since that is what you are doing ?
2. Riight... so you want 'environmental concerns' addressed but not the #1 environmental concern that the entire world is focused on ?  Why is that ?

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9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. So why not just say we are going to block imports from China since that is what you are doing ?
2. Riight... so you want 'environmental concerns' addressed but not the #1 environmental concern that the entire world is focused on ?  Why is that ?

1.  In a fair trade world, if China or anyone else is willing to meet the same standards as the US, Mexico, EU, UK, etc. already meet there would be no barrier whatsoever to their entry.

2.  The #1 environmental concern is oceanic pollution and dieoff.  Gaseous carbon emissions are a problem BECAUSE of the damage done to oceans can no longer absorb the CO2 we (and nature) emit.   As usual, the political morons and those who benefit from scare and guilt tactics are full of absolute BS.

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