Why the Miami collapse is so deplorable

[QuebecOverCanada]

A cynical take; the building's owner knew of repairable structural damage as far back as 2018 but decided instead to dance on the wire until the building could be declared structurally unsafe (this next part is important) during one of it's regular, required inspections. By doing this they gain the following: they don't have to dump money into a pit trying to maintain an old and out-of-fashion building indefinitely, they get a free pass at evicting all tenants at the same time because oops the building is suddenly unsafe to live in by law, and the final goal to demolish the building and rebuild as a more profitable and modern luxery condo unit. They didn't actually expect the collapse but they were 100% gaming out the known structural weaknesses at the risk of the tenants lives.

Thoughts?

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

A cynical take; the building's owner knew of repairable structural damage as far back as 2018 but decided instead to dance on the wire until the building could be declared structurally unsafe (this next part is important) during one of it's regular, required inspections. By doing this they gain the following: they don't have to dump money into a pit trying to maintain an old and out-of-fashion building indefinitely, they get a free pass at evicting all tenants at the same time because oops the building is suddenly unsafe to live in by law, and the final goal to demolish the building and rebuild as a more profitable and modern luxery condo unit. They didn't actually expect the collapse but they were 100% gaming out the known structural weaknesses at the risk of the tenants lives.

Thoughts?

The Globe & Mail interviewed a Civil Engineering prof and after reviewing the reports said that nothing looked particularly out of place.  Also, members of the Condo Board that oversaw everything are among the missing.

[QuebecOverCanada]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

The Globe & Mail interviewed a Civil Engineering prof and after reviewing the reports said that nothing looked particularly out of place.  Also, members of the Condo Board that oversaw everything are among the missing.

The source at New York Times seems to contradict Globe & Mail's reporting.

Engineer Warned of ‘Major Structural Damage’ at Florida Condo Complex A consultant in 2018 urged the managers to repair cracked columns and crumbling concrete. The work was finally about to get underway when the building collapsed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/26/us/miami-building-collapse-investigation.html

[Michael Hardner]

It's hard to qualify it, though.  If it were truly dangerous they would have condemned it.  But ok.

[QuebecOverCanada]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's hard to qualify it, though.  If it were truly dangerous they would have condemned it.  But ok.

The building has to be in a state where it is deemed too dangerous by an inspector. For me, the owners of the building did like a bad doctor would do; he would find a tumor inside a patient, and just wait. They had a warning about major repairs to make, and even if you had to bet it had a 1% chance of collapsing, this 1% chance was... dozens and dozens of lives at stakes. The owners didn't start the repairs three years after the inspection. It finally collapsed when they started to make repairs. All of that because they would have grounds for evictions if the building deteriorated just enough... and to make another building that would be much pricier. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by QuebecOverCanada

[Yzermandius19]

7 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

The building has to be in a state where it is deemed too dangerous by an inspector. For me, the owners of the building did like a bad doctor would do; he would find a tumor inside a patient, and just wait. They had a warning about major repairs to make, and even if you had to bet it had a 1% chance of collapsing, this 1% chance was... dozens and dozens of lives at stakes. The owners didn't start the repairs three years after the inspection. It finally collapsed when they started to make repairs. All of that because they would have grounds for evictions if the building deteriorated just enough... and to make another building that would be much pricier. 

this is speculation

can't prove they waited to try and evict everyone at once

as that never happened

you're just assuming the worst

based on mind reading skills apparently

what actual evidence is there that this was the plan?

Edited June 29, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[QuebecOverCanada]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

this is speculation

can't prove they waited to try and evict everyone at once

as that never happened

This is a cynical speculation, I know.

Because bad things happen, rarely, but it does. And it's for everyone's good that we should maybe start thinking that if what I wrote is the exact scenario, maybe we should review safety regulations for buildings, and not just wait for the good will of the owners.

[Yzermandius19]

25 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

This is a cynical speculation, I know.

Because bad things happen, rarely, but it does. And it's for everyone's good that we should maybe start thinking that if what I wrote is the exact scenario, maybe we should review safety regulations for buildings, and not just wait for the good will of the owners.

by all means investigate

perhaps you are correct

perhaps not

too early to jump to any conclusions yet

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

The source at New York Times seems to contradict Globe & Mail's reporting.

Engineer Warned of ‘Major Structural Damage’ at Florida Condo Complex A consultant in 2018 urged the managers to repair cracked columns and crumbling concrete. The work was finally about to get underway when the building collapsed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/26/us/miami-building-collapse-investigation.html

"Urging managers to get it repaired" still isn't the same as "warning managers that the building was at risk to collapse".

Keep in mind, this wasn't a case of people in one city letting people in another city take a grave risk, the managers also lived in the building. Apparently the person who said that they needed to get repairs done either underestimated or understated the severity of the issue. 

Also, just remember that repairs of that scale can't just get done by anyone within a week or so. There is a process involving engineering firms and city hall that isn't always quick - and 2020 was the covid year, aka a gongshow. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by WestCanMan

[QuebecOverCanada]

25 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

1."Urging managers to get it repaired" still isn't the same as "warning managers that the building was at risk to collapse".

2.Keep in mind, this wasn't a case of people in one city letting people in another city take a grave risk, the managers also lived in the building. Apparently the person who said that they needed to get repairs done either underestimated or understated the severity of the issue. 

3.Also, just remember that repairs of that scale can't just get done by anyone within a week or so. There is a process involving engineering firms and city hall that isn't always quick - and 2020 was the covid year, aka a gongshow. 

1. True, in that regard, what I think could have happened, is that the building owners wanted it to be in that state, somehow, for their personal gains, by not making the repairs on time.

2. It is, in the cynical view I gave you on this thread, a gamble. People gamble their homes on poker. Some gamble on other things. Don't take the 'rational' route for granted in that case.

3. An inspection from 2018 in the least impacted State for COVID (measures-wise, not the death toll, there are virtually no measures in Florida), lead them to postpone works for three years?

[WestCanMan]

6 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

1. True, in that regard, what I think could have happened, is that the building owners wanted it to be in that state, somehow, for their personal gains, by not making the repairs on time.

2. It is, in the cynical view I gave you on this thread, a gamble. People gamble their homes on poker. Some gamble on other things. Don't take the 'rational' route for granted in that case.

3. An inspection from 2018 in the least impacted State for COVID (measures-wise, not the death toll, there are virtually no measures in Florida), lead them to postpone works for three years?

1. That would only make sense of the 'managers' were also the 'owners'. Was it a strata? If it was a strata, they wouldn't likely want the 'teardown and rebuild scenario'. That's something that would only benefit a corporation owned by people who don't live there. 

2. Would they gamble with their lives though? They lived there, probably with their children. If someone told me that my house might collapse I wouldn't stay here with my kids, just hoping to get an insurance claim. 

3. A low # of Covid deaths in your state, and a lack of strict regs don't necessarily stop individual businesses from closing, or ensure that their workers will show up. Getting things done during covid was hard. 

In BC we're having a heat wave and some schools are closed (portables don't have AC), some workers are not showing up to their jobs, etc. 

[OftenWrong]

Routine safety inspections for many things have been placed on hold during the time of covid. If the building had been inspected between 2019 - 2021 it might have been declared unsafe, and people evacuated.

Contractors were not allowed to take on any new work, but emergency repairs were still allowed in specific cases.

Therefore the building collapsed, and they died of Covid -19.

[dialamah]

12 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

The building has to be in a state where it is deemed too dangerous by an inspector. For me, the owners of the building did like a bad doctor would do; he would find a tumor inside a patient, and just wait. They had a warning about major repairs to make, and even if you had to bet it had a 1% chance of collapsing, this 1% chance was... dozens and dozens of lives at stakes. The owners didn't start the repairs three years after the inspection. It finally collapsed when they started to make repairs. All of that because they would have grounds for evictions if the building deteriorated just enough... and to make another building that would be much pricier. 

You might have a case if this was a rental building, but my understanding is that the units were owned by the people who lived in them.  In Canada, such buildings are called stratas and a group of owners called councils oversee the operations, including making decisions on repairs.  Major repairs require majority of owner approval and, if approved, are paid either through special levy or, if there are enough funds, out of the contingency fund.  Owners have been known to vote down needed repairs for years, creating dangerous conditions for residents and court cases forcing stratas to make repairs.  A few years ago, in BC, all stratas were required to have a depreciation report created and updated every two (?) years and are required, by law, to carry out needed repairs.  

In the States, condos are run by homeowners associations, comprised of resident owners and have similarities to the way stratas are operated in Canada.  It could be that the resident owners themselves were the ones delaying the repairs, simply because enough of them didn't believe they were necessary and voted down any motion for a special assessment or any other financial option they have down there.  Or other HOA rules specific to Florida may have delayed the repairs too long.  

It's tragic, and likely the result of many small failures over time, rather than a single event or some kind of plot.

[Jake Ziegelbauer]

On 6/29/2021 at 12:04 PM, Michael Hardner said:

The Globe & Mail interviewed a Civil Engineering prof and after reviewing the reports said that nothing looked particularly out of place.  Also, members of the Condo Board that oversaw everything are among the missing.

Pervert Joe Biden is a Fake POTUS so its his fault