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Trudeau vows help after Indigenous kids' unmarked graves found, but offers no details


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26 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

The reserve I live near is nothing like this. It’s a well kept, separate community. Probably the best place to live in Canada, imo.

I suggest maybe “whites” need to cut it out with the prescriptive narrative for natives as though they know what is good for them. Just like we think we know what’s good for anyone else. These people have the power of the human mind same as anyone else. Let them decide their next best move. Canadian government has had their six.

I agree with your last paragraph in the sense that only Indigenous should recreate the policies that directly impact them, as long as no additional taxpayer money is required over current funding levels, as taxpayers have a right to know how their money is being spent or they can simply not provide it.

With regard to your first paragraph, some reserves are very successful and well managed.  Some are very unsustainable.  I found it interesting that the reserve closest to me was nicer than a lot of middle class non-Indigenous neighborhoods and the school was state of the art, especially since activists from that reserve had caused so much grief for local residents off the reserve.  It certainly made we question government policies as many communities canceled Canada Day celebrations.

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18 hours ago, blackbird said:

The problems they have with drugs, alcohol, and domestic abuse,

 It's well documented that people use drugs and alcohol to manage emotional pain resulting from childhood trauma.  Being taken from your family, having your name changed, forced to accept Christianity - even if not sexually and physically abused - is trauma.  If physical and sexual abuse are also present, even more trauma.  

Kids who are raised in institutions lack parenting skills; combine that with their self-medicating for their experiences as children, perhaps even you can see how trauma lasts over generation: consider that multiple generations of native kids ended up at these schools.  

18 hours ago, blackbird said:

They have been told all along that drugs, alcohol abuse, domestic violence are the wrong way to go, but many just choose to ignore the warnings

Soldiers suffer from PTSD, many end up on the streets, using alcohol and drugs.  Do you think they haven't been told "it's the wrong way to go"?  Do you think they don't know that?  Do you think that the pain they're living with is just a figment of their imagination?   Put down your useless Bible for a minute and do some real research on what trauma is and how it affects people.

19 hours ago, blackbird said:

Blaming white man for all the problems is the the way of shifting the blame,

Denying the long-term effects for the policies our government implemented and blaming the victims of that policy is a cowardly way of pretending the White man can do no wrong.

19 hours ago, blackbird said:

The government spends billions of dollars every year to help them. 

Reconciliation is not about money; it's about acknowledgement and understanding, about a hand up and not a hand out.  My responsibility, as part of the dominant culture under which these people were ill-treated, is to acknowledge, not deny, that ill-treatment and it's long term effect.  My responsibility is to expect our government to give more than money and promises to the people our country mistreated.  As far as I'm concerned, that's the very least we, as individuals, can do.  That little bit is too much though, for some people.

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2 hours ago, dialamah said:

 It's well documented that people use drugs and alcohol to manage emotional pain resulting from childhood trauma.  Being taken from your family, having your name changed, forced to accept Christianity - even if not sexually and physically abused - is trauma.  If physical and sexual abuse are also present, even more trauma.  

Kids who are raised in institutions lack parenting skills; combine that with their self-medicating for their experiences as children, perhaps even you can see how trauma lasts over generation: consider that multiple generations of native kids ended up at these schools.  

Soldiers suffer from PTSD, many end up on the streets, using alcohol and drugs.  Do you think they haven't been told "it's the wrong way to go"?  Do you think they don't know that?  Do you think that the pain they're living with is just a figment of their imagination?   Put down your useless Bible for a minute and do some real research on what trauma is and how it affects people.

Denying the long-term effects for the policies our government implemented and blaming the victims of that policy is a cowardly way of pretending the White man can do no wrong.

Reconciliation is not about money; it's about acknowledgement and understanding, about a hand up and not a hand out.  My responsibility, as part of the dominant culture under which these people were ill-treated, is to acknowledge, not deny, that ill-treatment and it's long term effect.  My responsibility is to expect our government to give more than money and promises to the people our country mistreated.  As far as I'm concerned, that's the very least we, as individuals, can do.  That little bit is too much though, for some people.

Canada has given billions over the years in grants, compensations, and various support and continues to do so.  

At some point, drug addicts, alcoholics, domestic abuse criminals, etc. must take responsibility for their own actions like everyone else should and not expect others to take the blame and coddle them with cash and special treatment forever. Wrongdoers claiming victimhood and being mollycoddled forever doesn't solve anything and just perpetuates the problems and criminality.  The government already provides assistance in every way possible, including sending mental health professionals to places where there are a lot of suicides. The endless accusations by activists and radicals about genocide, abuse by society against them and denial of rights, blah blah blah doesn't cut it any more.

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I’m afraid that problems with alcohol existed before residential schools.  There are many historic accounts.  Read about thefts at trading posts and the tragedy of the HMS Speedy.   It would be easier to blame others for all of an individual’s wrong choices, but that’s ultimately irresponsible and just illustrates the fallout of a system that sets up people to be perpetual beneficiaries of other people’s help.  Self-sufficiency should be the goal, especially if self-government is another goal.  Providing free education is still widely seen as the leg up to independence, so not all aspects of residential schools were bad, even by today’s standards.   Would it have been better not to educate the Indigenous from remote locations?   Would it have been better to follow a kind of prime directive and not provide assistance?   The immigrants kept coming and they still are.  Let’s not pretend it’s still possible in the south for Indigenous to live completely separate from modern western civilization, especially when so many Indigenous embrace it.

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3 hours ago, dialamah said:

 It's well documented that people use drugs and alcohol to manage emotional pain resulting from childhood trauma.  Being taken from your family, having your name changed, forced to accept Christianity - even if not sexually and physically abused - is trauma.  If physical and sexual abuse are also present, even more trauma.  

You are, as the Left often does, infantalizing natives. Many groups suffered grotesque human rights abuses but did not fall apart. The Jews, for one, came to Canada after WW2 and set about building a better life for themselves. They worked hard, obeyed the law and became excellent citizens. If we look at some other groups, such as the ten thousand Vietnamese refugees who came to Canada in the 1980s they likewise adapted and thrived.

A portion of native kids, about a third, I believe, went to residential schools. Death stopped being a regular visitor to these schools in the early 1950s with advances in medicine. Corporal punishment, which was a feature of all Canadian schools, was done away with in the 1970s and 1980s. The youngest graduate would be in their late fifties now.

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

Kids who are raised in institutions lack parenting skills;

Up until about the 1940s most of the leadership of Canada and the UK were raised at boarding schools and only saw families at Christmas and summer breaks. That was how the rich educated their kids.

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

Denying the long-term effects for the policies our government implemented and blaming the victims of that policy is a cowardly way of pretending the White man can do no wrong

People are responsible for their own actions, regardless of whether they had an unhappy childhood. The natives getting involved in crime, violence and drugs today never went to residential schools, nor did most of their parents. You are infantalizing natives again, making excuses for their behaviour.

 

 

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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Canada has given billions over the years in grants, compensations, and various support and continues to do so.  

At some point, drug addicts, alcoholics, domestic abuse criminals, etc. must take responsibility for their own actions like everyone else should and not expect others to take the blame and coddle them with cash and special treatment forever. Wrongdoers claiming victimhood and being mollycoddled forever doesn't solve anything and just perpetuates the problems and criminality.  The government already provides assistance in every way possible, including sending mental health professionals to places where there are a lot of suicides. The endless accusations by activists and radicals about genocide, abuse by society against them and denial of rights, blah blah blah doesn't cut it any more.

The problem is that natives on many reserves have no reason to live. There are no jobs nor the prospect of jobs. They get up and do what every day? Drink, smoke, do drugs, have sex? Hang around? They've lost the habit/culture of working. This is not an aspect of residential schools. You can see the same in American slums. People need a reason to live, to get up in the morning. They need responsibilities. The reserves are not places to grow and thrive. They are places to molder.  And having a bunch of lefties oozing sympathy and telling them 'we feel your pain' and 'we're so sorry for being the cause of everything' is not helpful. It just gives people on the reserves an out. It's not THEIR fault. It's the fault of white people! Therefor it's up to white people to solve their problems!

But that's not going to happen. The natives need to get involved, need to find a way to either make their reserves economically self supporting - at least to get jobs for most of those who want them - or they need to transition to other locations where jobs can be found for them.

Edited by Argus
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There are good points made on both sides here - yes, trauma can and does affect a family for generations.  It takes a lot of work to pull oneself out of those circumstances.  Some Natives do pull themselves out, using the resources provided by the government.  I do feel more of them could do more to help themselves.

Case in point - a friend of mine who grew up on the Fort McKay reserve in N. Alberta.  I met her in college when we were both in our 40's and we got to be good friends until her death last year.  She told me that growing up - she knew she did not want a life on the reserve, did not want to raise her children there.  She said, as soon as she was able (age 18), she got out, went to college and worked for 15 years on site in the oilsands as a heavy hauler.  She met and married a non-Native, had one child and adopted a child from Nunavut.  I met her in college when she was again using her indigenous rights to education to make a career change.  At no time did she feel she had to give up her identity as an indigenous person to achieve any of this.

It can be done.  I just feel with all the "perks" offered by the government to Natives - why aren't more of them taking advantage of it?  If I was offered free education, I'd be on that in a heartbeat.

But again, not everyone has the determination and self-awareness to pull themselves up.  I'm glad my friend did.  I miss her strength and wisdom a lot.

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You've identified a good portion of the problem Goddess . . . . below is another small portion.

There are generations of folks 'on reserve' that just don't have any concept of the personal pride and benefit that can be achieved with dropping the 'victim status' and partaking of mainstream Canadian society.  Many of these folks don't have any idea of the personal responsibility of holding down a job, of looking after your family.  We refer to the status card as the 'entitlement ticket'  . . . . The native guys that leave reserve and get into the workforce, pay taxes, drop the 'victim mentality' and compete for the better jobs would never consider going back to that mindset . . that everybody 'owes' them.

Trudeau and his ilk encourage the 'victim mentality' for his personal political reasons.  Not a good situation.

 

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9 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

You've identified a good portion of the problem Goddess . . . . below is another small portion.

There are generations of folks 'on reserve' that just don't have any concept of the personal pride and benefit that can be achieved with dropping the 'victim status' and partaking of mainstream Canadian society.  Many of these folks don't have any idea of the personal responsibility of holding down a job, of looking after your family.  We refer to the status card as the 'entitlement ticket'  . . . . The native guys that leave reserve and get into the workforce, pay taxes, drop the 'victim mentality' and compete for the better jobs would never consider going back to that mindset . . that everybody 'owes' them.

Trudeau and his ilk encourage the 'victim mentality' for his personal political reasons.  Not a good situation.

 

In fairness, when people are victims of serious abuse, almost no one gets over it and has a 'normal' life.

Look at Theo Fleury as a guy who seems to have had 'success'. He made many millions of dollars and his demons still caught up with him. He's not healthy, mentally, and he never will be.

If he only had the option of being a garbage truck driver instead of a job that he really loved - an NHL star - he would have been even more messed up.

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57 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trauma comes in many forms.  Most of us have it in our families.   It can be very hard on everyone involved, but what choice is there but to move on?

Not all types of trauma can be overcome, despite what life coaches will try to sell us.

Being raped as a child, the death of one's child, losing a limb.... There are things that we can't wish away. As a society we can't just expect everyone to 'walk it off' lol. Life can really suck.

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Some say trauma cannot be overcome or lasts for generations.  This is a hopeless, defeatist attitude.  It does not help the victims.  Trauma can be a spiritual problem or illness that can be overcome with the help of God.  There are even resources right on the internet that go into details about this help and how to obtain it.  The tragic part many of the people who are protesting the treatment of FNs, are fighting against any spiritual help and some are busy blaming all churches, or even vandalizing and burning down churches.  These people are certainly not helping any natives who are caught in the cycle of trauma, drugs, alcohol, domestic abuse, etc. 

It is as if the Devil is working to drive the people who need help further into trauma and encourage them to continue to be victims instead of seeking help and recovery.  Of course this would be the Devil's objective.  He doesn't want anyone healed.  He wants to keep them in bondage and destruction.  The Devil's message is there is no hope, you are a victim, and you need to blame others for your condition.  Stay away for anything spiritual or Biblical.  The irony is mainline churches were involved in residential schools so this plays into the hands of the Devil who now uses all religion and Biblical truth as the cause rather than the cure for trauma.

Five Things the Scriptures Teach Us about Trauma and Suffering - By Dr. Matthew S. Stanford - Hope and Healing Center and Institute

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There are those that believe 'being a victim' has everything to do with your mindset and your choosing to believe you're a victim. 

There are others that were subjected to the same adversities, view themselves as victims, and don't understand why their lives have stalled.  Instill this mindset into their children . . . . and on and on it goes.  Generations of victims.

This is not a critique  . . . . just know a little bit about it.

There are also the imported expert apologist types on here that endorse this victim mentality.

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On 7/22/2021 at 1:37 PM, WestCanMan said:

Not all types of trauma can be overcome, despite what life coaches will try to sell us.

Being raped as a child, the death of one's child, losing a limb.... There are things that we can't wish away. As a society we can't just expect everyone to 'walk it off' lol. Life can really suck.

I think all types of psychological trauma can be overcome, but it requires help from God.  Never accept the view that it is hopeless.  Of course if one believes it is hopeless and nothing can be done, they will never recover.  It might take a long slow process of recovery but hope and faith in God and his Word can help one.  Trust in God, his written word, and look not to men or some other thing as the answer.  There are many former alcoholics who will tell you they were once in bondage but have been set free.  They realize they are susceptible so they stay away from liquor and certain people and situations because they know it is a lifelong battle to remain free of it.  This principle would apply to many things that enslave people, almost anything you can think of that can be an addiction or stumbling block.  Sometimes, one must get out of the circumstances that contribute to the enslavement as well as take other measures such as seek spiritual help.  That help should be sought from someone who has faith in Christ and a good knowledge of the Bible.  It may require trying more than one person until one feels confident that they have sound support.  We live in troubled times with many different beliefs and errors around.  Even a solid counseling service through the internet might be preferable if nobody qualified can be found locally.  The following healing centre might be something worth investigating.  I have not investigated it but only mention it as a possibility worth looking into.

Five Things the Scriptures Teach Us about Trauma and Suffering - By Dr. Matthew S. Stanford - Hope and Healing Center and Institute

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3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I think all types of psychological trauma can be overcome, but it requires help from God.  Never accept the view that it is hopeless.  Of course if one believes it is hopeless and nothing can be done, they will never recover.  It might take a long slow process of recovery but hope and faith in God and his Word can help one.  Trust in God, his written word, and look not to men or some other thing as the answer.  There are many former alcoholics who will tell you they were once in bondage but have been set free.  They realize they are susceptible so they stay away from liquor and certain people and situations because they know it it is lifelong battle to remain free of it.  This principle would apply to many things that enslave people.  Sometimes, one must get out of the circumstances that contribute to the enslavement as well as take other measures such as seek spiritual help.

It isn't God against us so much as all the people who think they know what God wants, and use that as an excuse to carry out their BS.

Or like my Grandpappy, old Pee-paw OftenWrong, said

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Which brings us round to thread topic. Mr. Trudeau shall help the natives, alright. Any excuse to wear one of those feathered head-dress the Chiefs get to wear on is head, and some makeup, he is in.

Look how happy-

justin-bonnet.jpg

 

;)
 

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The sad fact is that people can grow up on a completely different planet within the same small town. Some people's whole mentality was formed in a place of complete misery and mistrust.

It's easy for us to think "They just have to learn to work hard and to trust people" but that's like asking a hyena to become best friends with a lion or asking liberal to think for themselves. Once your brain is wired through your childhood it's not easy to swap all the circuitry.

"Give me a child until he's 7 and I'll show you the man...."

I'll grant you that harsh circumstances can sometimes create the strongest people, but that's a low-percentage outcome. A lot of people will be unable to overcome a really high level of adversity. Instead of trying to force them to become normal you may just have to help them cope with the life they live. 

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The Indigenous got screwed over by exactly the same forces of so-called “progress” that are alive and well in government today.  It’s the fallacy that more is better: more people, more growth, more competitiveness on a global scale.  We’ve bought into all of the trappings of progress because they do bring technology that can make our lives easier and more efficient.  It can also bring environmental devastation, social tension, and immense stress, as we constantly strive to have greater returns on investment.  It’s not so much a European “white man” problem as a human problem.  Trudeau undoes everything that he says about the need to reconcile with Indigenous and fight climate change when he increases the number of immigrants to 400,000 per year and invests in more pipelines (which are still the best and cleanest way to deliver oil!).  Yet we don’t seem to have an exit strategy from our pro growth approach to existence.  Maybe we can learn from Indigenous wisdom and other approaches, such as from the Far East, but even these are immediately commodified and brought to you by modern media and Coca-Cola.   There’s simply no outside to our global civilization, which is why the wealthiest are looking to the stars, even though there’s no better place for humans to live that we know of or can reach than Earth. We have to make our “system” work better because there’s nowhere else to go.  The trauma caused by our past mistakes is part of the reality we have to deal with.

I do know that it’s our nature to have hope and strive for better conditions.  We are teleological.  I think we just need better ideas about what success looks like and what kind of world we want.  Culture and traditions can be protected, but it’s our lifestyles that tell the truth about who we are.  There are some things we can and should change as a society, but other choices are made on an individual level, such as what to consume.  Few choices are easy and coming to a consensus as a society about the best policies is hard given all of the different groups and individual interests.

Constitutions in liberal democracies such as Canada are there to ensure certain rights and freedoms, yet they’re merely starting points, as there are often competing rights and interpretations.  Humans freedom is essential, yet it comes at the price of conflicting interests.  Human nature and the nature of dominance hierarchies are inevitable. No matter how well we cover it up or mitigate it with civilization, the clash of people and civilizations continues as it did during the Roman Empire and Canada’s early settlement.  Liberal democratic society seems to be our best iteration so far, despite its challenges.

 

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1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

The expression on the woman's face, back right, says it all.

Why no blackface though, I wonder. That would have been a nice touch, to include blacks in the native ceremony. Really summarizing what Mr. Trudeau stands for.

Right?

;)

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An excellent read on residential schools and the Indian Act: 21 Things You May Not Know About The Indian Act by Bob Joseph.  I’d actually call this essential reading right now.  Indigenous have good reasons to be upset, but the broken system still hasn’t been fixed, though it might be hard to come to an agreement on what success looks like, as many Indigenous are afraid of losing what they have if the Act is scrapped.

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As has been pointed out a few times by the sane members here, abuse of children is not exactly a Catholic thing, nor a Canadian thing, nor a racist thing. The abuse of the helpless inevitably draws a certain kind of person who can indulge themselves wherever supervision and oversight are lax. 

I add this cite for context though it has nothing to do with natives. It's about the widespread abuse, including sexual abuse of children in British 'care homes' which you might as well call orphanages during the 1960s right through to the 1990s. It's grim reading but familiar to people on this topic.

Staff and councillors presided over a "culture of cover-up" that led to more than 700 children in south London care homes suffering cruelty and sexual abuse, an inquiry has found.

The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse strongly criticised Lambeth Council for allowing abuse in five homes from the 1960s to the 1990s.

The Independent Inquiry Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) report said: "With some exceptions, they [Lambeth Council staff] treated children in care as if they were worthless.

"As a consequence, individuals who posed a risk to children were able to infiltrate children's homes and foster care, with devastating, life-long consequences for their victims."

Of the 705 complaints made by former residents across three such facilities, only one senior member of staff was ever disciplined by the council, the report said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57984924

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