Trudeau vows help after Indigenous kids' unmarked graves found, but offers no details

[Argus]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

More unmarked graves were found now in Saskatchewan.

There were cemeteries at all the rural residential schools. Where else were they going to bury the dead? And whatever markers those graves originally had were almost certainly made of wood, and long gone.

1 hour ago, cougar said:

Finding out what happened wouldn't change a thing.

We have to look forward - stop the mass expansion into the wilderness with its destructive practices.

No, there are still some young people who have pride in Canada. The progressives want to keep going until they all hate this country like they do. So we will get more and more of these as each tribe near a residential school takes its turn to 'discover' that there are unmarked graves there.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

There were cemeteries at all the rural residential schools. Where else were they going to bury the dead? And whatever markers those graves originally had were almost certainly made of wood, and long gone.

No, there are still some young people who have pride in Canada. The progressives want to keep going until they all hate this country like they do. So we will get more and more of these as each tribe near a residential school takes its turn to 'discover' that there are unmarked graves there.

Some, perhaps most, of these discoveries were made long ago because the communities knew people were buried in or near the schools.  The news release of this information seems carefully choreographed.  We don’t know how these children died.  We do know that over a century ago many families lost children to illness and disease.  There’s no evidence presented of murder in these burials so far.  So, was there neglect?  Yes.  Was it universal across schools and classes? Again, there’s currently no clear evidence of that, though we can say it was common.  Were publicly-funded Indigenous boarding schools rife with other problems like malnutrition, underfunding, abuse?  How prevalent were such problems compared to non-Indigenous publicly funded boarding schools, if there were any?  If honest research and investigation takes place, we may find out.  We all have to be open to whatever facts emerge and give the information a just response.  Individual accounts do add up, but what does the sum total tell us, honestly?

If we proceed with assumptions instead of facts, there can be no reconciliation.  The problem now is that we hear a lot of strong emotional positions that don’t answer the questions above.  If that continues people will eventually tune out the headlines.   If people feel that they are being manipulated, they will eventually push back.  Right now people are petrified of saying something that might appear colonial or racist, even if they are merely seeking facts.  The perceived victims are given centre stage because people feel guilty and sorry for past mistreatment.  I guess we have to ask what’s the endgame or purpose of all this.  If it’s to learn what really happened, allow families to say goodbye, and apologize for the misguided practices of past government and church members, that’s fine, but most of the people involved are gone.  It’s hard to know how good many of them were.  Publicly funded education was a progressive idea in its infancy, and only the “settler” taxpayers were providing it.  The schools represented their values.

It’s not radical or unreasonable to say that there were good things about early public education relative to what existed before public education, and it’s not a stretch to say, that there were even some good things for some Indigenous to some extent.  This is reasonable, but I don’t think that there’s any guarantee that reason will prevail.  People who say such things are vilified today in the kangaroo court of social media.  This is a time of strong opinions and knee-jerk reactions, I’ll venture to guess partly because people are raw from pandemic hell, but there is definitely an ignorant mob looking for scapegoats.  Hopefully cooler heads will prevail, objective facts are revealed, and there are sensible reactions.  Not sure though.  

Edited June 24, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[OftenWrong]

“The federal cabinet minister responsible for Crown-Indigenous relations apologized publicly to an Indigenous MP today after suggesting Jody Wilson-Raybould's concern over residential schools and Indigenous rights was really a ploy to secure a generous MP pension.”

....

”Trudeau vows help after Indigenous kids' unmarked graves found, but offers no details”

....

<Expletive deleted>

[dialamah]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

The progressives want to keep going until they all hate this country like they do

Progressives don't hate Canada; wanting one's country to be better isn't hatred, even if their idea of better isn't yours.  You should know better, given the posts you've made and articles you've cited about the damage this kind of dumbassery does to political discourse and adds to polarization.   

[Yzermandius19]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Progressives don't hate Canada; wanting one's country to be better isn't hatred, even if their idea of better isn't yours.  You should know better, given the posts you've made and articles you've cited about the damage this kind of dumbassery does to political discourse and adds to polarization.   

progressives pursuit of a utopia leads to dystopic results

sanctimonious priggish progressives for the fail

the road to hell is paved with good intentions

and progressives are gung ho to pave that road

though at least they will tear Canada down on that road

but unfortunately they will try to throw the baby out

with the Confederation bathwater

 

progressives don't build things up

they tear things down

and not just the bad, but the good as well

including classical liberal values and the enlightenment they rode in on

due to their misguided belief in a Rousseauian state of nature

when really all they are doing is ushering in a Hobbesian state of nature

and they will seek to accomplish that task via the Hegelian dialectic

with a Nietzschean and Malthusian ethos driving the dialectic

Edited June 25, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[dialamah]

11 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

progressives pursuit of a utopia leads to dystopic results

sanctimonious priggish progressives for the fail

the road to hell is paved with good intentions

and progressives are gung ho to pave that road

though at least they will tear Canada down on that road

but unfortunately they will try to throw the baby out

with the Confederation bathwater

Hmmm.  I think you're wrong.  Progressives create positive change in society.  Conservatives maintain tradition, ensuring change isn't too fast or severe.  A successful society needs both.  Demonizing progressives by claiming they hate/are destroying Canada is as bad as demonizing conservatives by claiming they want to regress Canada to a time of overt patriarchy and racism.  Demonizing the other side is not good for society or our poltical process and is more likely to wreck Canada than either progressive or conservative ideology.  

[Yzermandius19]

17 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Hmmm.  I think you're wrong.  Progressives create positive change in society.  Conservatives maintain tradition, ensuring change isn't too fast or severe.  A successful society needs both.  Demonizing progressives by claiming they hate/are destroying Canada is as bad as demonizing conservatives by claiming they want to regress Canada to a time of overt patriarchy and racism.  Demonizing the other side is not good for society or our poltical process and is more likely to wreck Canada than either progressive or conservative ideology.  

you are confusing classical liberals with progressives

classical liberals are the ones driving the positive changes in society

not progressives

the only progressives helping to drive positive change

are those pushing the extension of classical liberal values

 

classical liberals running the show

results in the Glorious Revolution and American Revolution

progressives running the show

results in the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution and Chinese Communist Revolution

siding with the latter over the former is asinine

 

many conservatives today are trying to conserve classical liberal values

while many progressives today are trying to tear down classical liberal values

this is the major fault line in the culture war

Edited June 25, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[blackbird]

16 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Hmmm.  I think you're wrong.  Progressives create positive change in society.  Conservatives maintain tradition, ensuring change isn't too fast or severe.  A successful society needs both.  Demonizing progressives by claiming they hate/are destroying Canada is as bad as demonizing conservatives by claiming they want to regress Canada to a time of overt patriarchy and racism.  Demonizing the other side is not good for society or our poltical process and is more likely to wreck Canada than either progressive or conservative ideology.  

Progressives changing America is dividing America along a sharp line of division.  America was founded on Judeo-Christianity.  This means the traditional family, not gender change or LGBTQ ideology as we see going full tilt in the last 20 years or so. Plus all the woke people and left wingers trying to bring in Socialism or Marxism and banish Christianity from schools and society in general.  There is a book just recently written describing the possible coming second civil war.  The first civil war was unnecessary cost a lot of lives and suffering.  But if progressives persist in pushing and forcing their changes on society much of which does not agree, tensions will continue to increase until who know what will happen.  Millions of people will not be willing to surrender their basic freedoms.  There are many Marxist-leaning radicals who are not willing to live and let live.

Edited June 25, 2021 by blackbird

[Zeitgeist]

Never in my life have I seen such cowering from political leaders to radical demands.  Facts and balanced perspectives are overshadowed by the loud and angry. Careers and reputations are destroyed over a phrase that runs afoul of the inquisitors.  The institutions that took centuries to build which underlie our democracy and human progress are being destroyed.  The vandals are laying waste to civilization.  Within the next few years we could see the end of Canada itself because her own leaders refuse to defend it.  The crucifix is being replaced by the pride flag.  Submit to the ultra liberal or kiss employment and social acceptance goodbye.  That’s our reality.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Argus]

15 hours ago, dialamah said:

Progressives don't hate Canada; wanting one's country to be better isn't hatred, even if their idea of better isn't yours.  You should know better, given the posts you've made and articles you've cited about the damage this kind of dumbassery does to political discourse and adds to polarization.   

Progressives hate Canada. Period. There isn't any question about that. They hate everything about Canada's history, its values, traditions and institutions. They don't even like Canadians (unless they're members of an approved minority). They're only happy around foreigners and want to import as many as possible while destroying everything about Canada's history and culture.

Yes, they certainly believe that would make it 'better'. I don't dispute that. But that doesn't change the reality of how they feel. If you ask a progressive what, if anything they like about Canada, they'll cite only modern social services and things like multiculturalism and immigration and things like that. 

And anyway, progressives aren't interested in political discourse. Either you agree with them in ever particular or you're a Nazi who needs to be silenced.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Argus

[Argus]

14 hours ago, blackbird said:

Progressives changing America is dividing America along a sharp line of division.  America was founded on Judeo-Christianity. 

I don't dispute the impact of the idiotic identity politics of the Left in the US. But they have a lot of help from the idiots of the Right. The Republican Party has melted down and lost all traces of its previous conservative beliefs and traditions. It's now basically a populist party which survives on exploiting hot-button social issues and vast amounts of cash from its billionaire corporate backers. Not to mention gerrymandering. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Argus

[dialamah]

On 6/25/2021 at 11:41 AM, Argus said:

Progressives hate Canada. Period.

You hate Canada; I can tell because you constantly post long screeds about how awful Canada is.  Virtually every post you make is a description of how Canada (and Canadians) are such losers, stupid, lazy, lax, far behind other countries, failing economically, failing socially, failing at immigration, failing at integration - yada yada.

On 6/25/2021 at 11:41 AM, Argus said:

If you ask a progressive what, if anything they like about Canada, they'll cite only modern social services and things like multiculturalism and immigration and things like that. 

So you only love the Canada of the past, is that it?  If other people love the current Canada, they actually hate Canada?  Only people who loved Canada of the past truly love Canada?  This makes no f'ing sense.

(I don't really think you hate Canada; just hoping to make the point that your sweeping statement that "progressives hate Canada" is stupid, but I doubt you'll get it.)

Edited June 30, 2021 by dialamah

[cannuck]

I will grant that what was done with residential schools resulted in "cultural genocide" - but this was done with the belief of the time that this would (and many would argue DID) facilitate aboriginal assimilation into this country.  The implication that these graves represent some kind of physical genocide is way off base.  EVERY institution that was to house a lot of people of any age over much of the past century was likely to have a graveyard, as death from disease was very common.  On top of that, aboriginal immune systems were not well suited to the addition of European infectious agents and no doubt suffered far higher death rates.  Markers would probably have been wooden if used at all.  Hopefully, when some of the cult's records are revealed, so better idea of who is who, how the died, etc. can be produced.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

You hate Canada; I can tell because you constantly post long screeds about how awful Canada is.  Virtually every post you make is a description of how Canada (and Canadians) are such losers, stupid, lazy, lax, far behind other countries, failing economically, failing socially, failing at immigration, failing at integration - yada yada.

Hmm, if I hated Canada I'd want to constantly change it - like you do. I'd want to flood it with foreigners so I didn't have to be around Canadians and so its traditions, values and culture were washed away - like you do. I'd constantly disparage its history and institutions - like you do. I'd praise other cultures and defend them against all attacks while attacking our culture and values - like you do.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

So you only love the Canada of the past, is that it? 

I love the Canada that worked and had a sense of brotherhood, family and community, where people felt a part of something great and growing. Conservatives know that when something is working pretty well it's WAY easier for a change to screw it up than make it better. And most of the changes over the past forty years have screwed it up.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

If other people love the current Canada, they actually hate Canada? 

A study I posted some time ago talked about the fascinating aspect of white liberals in that they were the only group of any race, ethnicity or political persuasion who demonstrated 'out-group loyalty'. All other groups demonstrated 'in-group loyalty'. But white liberals don't have any and think that sort of thing is terrible. Those are the people who want to change Canada. People who have no loyalty for, and in fact disdain other white Canadians.

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Argus

[dialamah]

 

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Hmm, if I hated Canada I'd want to constantly change it - like you do.

How do I want to change it, exactly?  By wanting the same opportunities for everyone, regardless of race, color or creed?  By believing that nobody should have to live in poverty, through no fault of their own?  By believing that justice, political, economic and social systems can always be improved on?  You talk about shithole countries, and backwards societies with disdain, and at the same time dismiss those people (like me) who are the ones who've insisted on pursuing change to make our society more equal, less misogynistic, less violent, more tolerant.  I'm exactly the kind of person needed to bring these countries into the 22nd century, just as it was people like me who brought Canada into the 20th and 21st centuries.

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I'd want to flood it with foreigners so I didn't have to be around Canadians and so its traditions, values and culture were washed away - like you do.

You can only believe such a thing would happen if you refused to accept that immigrants both create and accept our Canadian culture.  My 'traditions' include those passed down from both my English/Scottish heritage and my adopted Ukrainian heritage, 4 generations on one side and 3 on the other - these traditions are validated by millions of other Canadians as part of Canadian culture, even as we acknowledge their ethnic origins.   As has been demonstrated repeatedly on this board, immigrants to Canada (and to any Western country) take on the culture of their host country even as they include elements of their own culture.  That's a fact, buddy, even if you refuse to accept it because it doesn't support your narrative that immigrants from 'certain countries' shouldn't be permitted in Canada.

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I'd praise other cultures and defend them against all attacks while attacking our culture and values - like you do.

I both praise and criticize other cultures, as well as Canada, exactly the same as you do.   

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I love the Canada that worked and had a sense of brotherhood, family and community, where people felt a part of something great and growing. Conservatives know that when something is working pretty well it's WAY easier for a change to screw it up than make it better.

So, you don't love present Canada.  Too bad, because that's the country you live in - and since you've now admitted that you hate the current Canada, I guess we'll all just realize that your "progressives hate Canada" is just you projecting your own feelings.

1 hour ago, Argus said:

And most of the changes over the past forty years have screwed it up.

Oh, bullshit.  Canada continues to get better in terms of human rights, freedoms - and even economically.  40 years ago gays were being beaten and killed; who cared?  Gay people had to have 'beards' to protect their jobs and sometimes lives; if they wanted to live together, they had to pretend to be roommates.  40 years ago, acknowledgement of spousal abuse was just beginning; a man could not legally rape his wife until the 1980s. There's plenty more examples of how progressives have shaped Canada into a better country, even in the last 40 years.  That you hate these changes says a lot about who you are and what you support.

1 hour ago, Argus said:

A study I posted some time ago talked about the fascinating aspect of white liberals in that they were the only group of any race, ethnicity or political persuasion who demonstrated 'out-group loyalty'. All other groups demonstrated 'in-group loyalty'.

You've posted some interesting articles, but I only vaguely recall this one - somehow I don't think it says exactly what you are suggesting here - that in-group loyalty is somehow morally superior to out-group loyalty. 

In-group loyalty is basically why there's the cliche'd 'old boys club', which means anyone who doesn't fit some preferred stereotype isn't welcome.  In-group loyalty is practiced by the people you love to hate - Muslims who are intolerant of gays, women, non-believers; immigrants who refuse to associate with Canadians.  People showing preference to their "in-group" is perfectly normal human behavior and we all do that to some degree.  But it's the people who also give those of the 'out-group' respect and consideration who are definitely more helpful to a cohesive and peaceful society, whether within a family group, a workplace or a country.  Too much loyalty to an in-group results in exclusion and polarization, not cohesiveness.  Other than ostracization by one's personal 'in-group', I do not know what the downside of 'out-group' loyalty would be. Still, it's probably true that there must be both at play, not just one or the other, in both individuals and the larger society.   

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by dialamah

[Army Guy]

6 hours ago, dialamah said:

You hate Canada; I can tell because you constantly post long screeds about how awful Canada is.  Virtually every post you make is a description of how Canada (and Canadians) are such losers, stupid, lazy, lax, far behind other countries, failing economically, failing socially, failing at immigration, failing at integration - yada yada.

So you only love the Canada of the past, is that it?  If other people love the current Canada, they actually hate Canada?  Only people who loved Canada of the past truly love Canada?  This makes no f'ing sense.

(I don't really think you hate Canada; just hoping to make the point that your sweeping statement that "progressives hate Canada" is stupid, but I doubt you'll get it.)

I don't think criticizing our nation or it's citizens is a form of hate, Argus has many valid points in his posts, Canadians have or are changing and in the eyes of those in back side of life not everything is for the good. Today Canada is divided into thousands of pieces of special interest groups each via to be heard or become the next new fad...

Most Canadians of the past did not need or crave the social programs we have today, they worked hard for what they had and asking for a hand out was a blow to your character, today their are many of  those that just give up, or why work when i can get paid for doing nothing...

In NB we have repeat of generations on welfare, there is no incentive to get an education or a job... then we have fishermen making millions of dollars doing seasonal fishing then and on the off season collecting pogy, it's free money why not...Progressives today don't care about the nation but rather number "one" themselves just look at what they asking or telling us... 

[dialamah]

9 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I don't think criticizing our nation or it's citizens is a form of hate,

You are right, and that's kinda the point - if I (or someone Argus considers "progressive") levels criticism against Canada that Argus disagrees with, he says it's because 'progressives hate Canada".  Perhaps you could notice when he does that, and also remind him that criticism of Canada isn't the same as hating Canada.

 

[Army Guy]

9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You are right, and that's kinda the point - if I (or someone Argus considers "progressive") levels criticism against Canada that Argus disagrees with, he says it's because 'progressives hate Canada".  Perhaps you could notice when he does that, and also remind him that criticism of Canada isn't the same as hating Canada.

 

Hate is a very powerful word, and in todays conditions it is thrown around a lot, perhaps hate is not the right word. Maybe dislikes. I don't like where the extreme right or left are going, but i am of the opinion that todays world is weighted to the left, and the right is concerned , that the right is fading into the past...

Progressives maybe don't hate Canada, in my opinion, i don't think they think that deep, they are concerned with their own bubble or special interest groups, although they do share bubbles once in a while when it is beneficial, for example LGBT and BLM.. But they don't care about the nation or anything outside of their bubble... It is one of the reasons we as a nation are so divided... in my opinion, 

[dialamah]

14 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Hate is a very powerful word, and in todays conditions it is thrown around a lot, perhaps hate is not the right word. Maybe dislikes. I don't like where the extreme right or left are going, but i am of the opinion that todays world is weighted to the left, and the right is concerned , that the right is fading into the past...

So a year or three ago, Argus posted an article about the fact that both liberals/progressives and conservatives have a valuable role to play in society, in it's shaping.  I agree with that, to be honest.   To me, the argument isn't (or shouldn't be) that the "other side" is evil and "hates" or "dislikes" our country and have their head up their ass, the argument should be how can accurately assess who has the best ideas and how can bring those ideas to fruition.

We can look at immigration, Argus's particular pet peeve.  He (and others) feel that immigration levels are too high, unnecessarily high - that they reduce income for everyone, and bring in unwanted social attitudes.  I think that immigration brings value to the country, both in terms of economic growth and enriching our culture.  I think that immigrants from oppressive or "backwards" countries serve to bring their own countries into a more modern mindset, as they export at least some of their ideas back home.  Not to mention, many people want to come to come to this country because they have both freedom to worship as they wish, and freedom to be something other than what their country demands of them - like being a gay Muslim is possible in Canada, but not, for instance, in Egypt.  I want to offer every gay Muslim a place to practice their faith, and their sexuality, safely.  I want to offer a place of safety and freedom to everyone who would value that.  

Still, I could be persuaded that too many immigrants is not good for Canada, and that the economic positives they bring do not offset their economic costs.  But that persuasion would have to come from someone who doesn't make their disdain for progressives and certain immigrants so obvious.   

26 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Progressives maybe don't hate Canada, in my opinion, i don't think they think that deep,

I think the problem here is that you are so busy dismissing progressives that you aren't actually hearing what they say.   Certainly some progressives aren't deep thinkers; that's true of some conservatives.  On the other hand, many people do think pretty deeply about various issues and do have valuable things to say, even if it doesn't reflect one's own opinion. 

32 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

But they don't care about the nation or anything outside of their bubble... It is one of the reasons we as a nation are so divided... in my opinion, 

Do you really think conservatives are any less in their "bubble"?  I mean, really?  We're all human, we all do the same sorts of things and we all prefer our bubble to someone else's.  It takes a conscious effort and thought to pierce through that bubble, and you have to do it many, many times.  

I spent some time assuming that all or most Conservatives were the same as certain posters here, and I was definitely getting a hate-on for conservatives.  I had to remind myself that this was a very small forum and to judge all conservatives by their words was just stupid.  I had to find a different forum to get a more balanced view of Canadians, whether they are conservative or not.  I understand that it's not easy to remain objective, but we have to try.  And we have to work at not assuming the worst of the other side - that they 'don't care' or are actively trying to sabotage Canada.  We don't have to assume evil intent just because someone has a different ideology; that is what divides us.

We, as individuals, have to do better at hearing people who think differently than we do.  Even Argus has said so.  Even though it's hard, and even though we're gonna fail as much as we succeed.  I don't want to go down the path of the States, where some portion of one side decides they have to invade our Parliament buildings with the intent of physically and violently removing the government that's currently in power.

 

 

[Argus]

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

How do I want to change it, exactly?  By wanting the same opportunities for everyone, regardless of race, color or creed? 

You don't want the same opportunities, you want the same results. I believe in equality while you believe in equity. I believe in merit, while you - don't.

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

By believing that nobody should have to live in poverty, through no fault of their own? 

What about when it IS their own fault?

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

By believing that justice, political, economic and social systems can always be improved on? 

Perfect is the enemy of good. You will never get perfect. But in tinkering with good you can get bad.

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

You talk about shithole countries, and backwards societies with disdain, and at the same time dismiss those people (like me) who are the ones who've insisted on pursuing change to make our society more equal, less misogynistic, less violent, more tolerant. 

Your concept of justice is not the same as mine. Mine includes justice for those who screwed up, who are bad people, who are lazy and incompetent and just don't care. You assume everyone who is poor is unjustly so and that's just not true. Your view of misogynistic is also probably unlike mine. Mine involves women being considered equally for a job but not being given preference nor having the job's requirements watered down. Nor does mine involve judging everything which is masculine as toxic.

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

I'm exactly the kind of person needed to bring these countries into the 22nd century,

Your views if prevailing, would certainly be better than those in shithole countries. That doesn't mean they're better than what we already had here.

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

You can only believe such a thing would happen if you refused to accept that immigrants both create and accept our Canadian culture.

Most people carry forward the culture they're born to. The culture most immigrants are born to is backwards in almost all respects. I don't want them creating a culture here. As for accepting ours, that remains to be seen. 

Canada struggling to absorb immigrants

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

  As has been demonstrated repeatedly on this board, immigrants to Canada (and to any Western country) take on the culture of their host country even as they include elements of their own culture.  That's a fact, buddy, even if you refuse to accept it

No, that's a cliche based on Canada's past history with immigration. The problem is that up until the 1970s almost all our immigrants came from Europe, which has similar root languages and cultures. Now they mostly come from places who don't even share the alphabet with us and have wildly different cultural and religious beliefs. It remains to be seen if we can assimilate them anywhere nearly as well as we did the Dutch and Germans and Ukrainians.

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

People showing preference to their "in-group" is perfectly normal human behavior and we all do that to some degree.  But it's the people who also give those of the 'out-group' respect and consideration who are definitely more helpful to a cohesive and peaceful society,

I'm talking about people with a marked preference for the out-group rather than their own.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/americas-white-saviors

Edited July 1, 2021 by Argus

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

You don't want the same opportunities, you want the same results. I believe in equality while you believe in equity. I believe in merit, while you - don't.

*eyeroll*

2 hours ago, Argus said:

What about when it IS their own fault?

 I guess what constitutes "their fault" and "being dealt a shitty hand in life" is really the question, eh? 

Let's look at the indigenous people of Canada.  Your opinion, as I understand it, is that they don't want to work - they just want government handouts.  They should just move to cities and get jobs.  They are lucky Canada rescued them from their savage ways, and should show their appreciation by becoming your version of a productive citizen.  What happened to them happened so long ago; they should be over it by now and are only using it to make us feel guilty.  It's their fault so many remain at poverty levels.

My opinion is that the trauma suffered by our ancestor's attempts to 'civilize' them for their own good is trauma passed down through generations.   The fact that until the 50's they had to ask permission attend university, and could only do so if they agreed to essentially renounce their family, roots and culture or that until 2014, they had to get a special permit in order to sell anything off-reserve matters.  And, how many years has Canada ignored the fact that many reserves don't have clean drinking water?  Children raised in institutions had no way of learning proper parenting skills, and so they abused their own children, who grew up to abuse their kids.  Alcohol/drugs to kill the pain of losing their culture, rejected by both their society and the white society, stuck in no-man's land. My opinion is that in order to help Indigenous people leave poverty behind, we have to acknowledge what happened, stop telling them what they need to do to 'heal' and listen to what they tell us they need.

The indigenous have been dealt a shitty hand - by Canadian institutions - for over a hundred years.  That is why so many remain in poverty.   It's not a "choice" they made; it's a choice we - white society - made for them.  That our ancestors may have been well-intentioned doesn't mean we get to just slough off what happened, blame them for their pain that continues and expect them to thank us for saving them from "savagery".  

2 hours ago, Argus said:

No, that's a cliche based on Canada's past history with immigration. The problem is that up until the 1970s almost all our immigrants came from Europe, which has similar root languages and cultures. Now they mostly come from places who don't even share the alphabet with us and have wildly different cultural and religious beliefs.  It remains to be seen if we can assimilate them anywhere nearly as well as we did the Dutch and Germans and Ukrainians.

Well, we've been importing people India for over 100 years; India has a very different culture and religious belief, but somehow we've survived.  Over 2 million East Indians in Canada, and yet - we still have Christmas and Easter, rape is still against the law and we can still kill cattle.  We've been importing Muslims for about a 100 years, too; did you even know that?  The first Muslim immigrants were apparently from Scotland, so right in your preferred demographic - except they were Muslim.  In any case, we now have a little over a million Muslims in Canada and we still are strongly progressive, with laws against murder/rape/FGM/wife beating.  And, the last survey you posted regarding Muslims in Canada showed quite clearly that the younger the Muslim person was when arriving in Canada, or if they were born in Canada, the more progressive their views were.  So you know, your claim that it 'remains to be seen' has already been disproven.  Repeatedly.

2 hours ago, Argus said:

I'm talking about people with a marked preference for the out-group rather than their own.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/americas-white-saviors

Thanks for the clarification; I'll take a look at it.

Edited to add:  I've taken a look at it.  They're talking about a faction within mainstream democrats.  It doesn't claim that all liberals/democrats/progressives are more loyal to the 'out-group' then their 'in-group'.  The entire article displays just how wide-ranging views are within democrats/liberals and it's all relative, anyway.

Not to mention, I could take what this article says and accuse conservatives of lacking compassion, empathy, and prefer being unfair to being fair.  How would that work, hmm?   Would it be true?  Do conservatives lack compassion and empathy?  Are they unfair - and how can they be both unfair and believe that people should succeed on merit?   

You need to do better, Argus.

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by dialamah

[BeaverFever]

13 hours ago, dialamah said:

You hate Canada; I can tell because you constantly post long screeds about how awful Canada is.  Virtually every post you make is a description of how Canada (and Canadians) are such losers, stupid, lazy, lax, far behind other countries, failing economically, failing socially, failing at immigration, failing at integration - yada yada.

So you only love the Canada of the past, is that it?  If other people love the current Canada, they actually hate Canada?  Only people who loved Canada of the past truly love Canada?  This makes no f'ing sense.

(I don't really think you hate Canada; just hoping to make the point that your sweeping statement that "progressives hate Canada" is stupid, but I doubt you'll get it.)

Awesome 

[Argus]

12 hours ago, dialamah said:

 I guess what constitutes "their fault" and "being dealt a shitty hand in life" is really the question, eh? 

Some people are born with golden spoons and some are dealt shitty hands. So you get over it and work to make your life better. Or you just shrug and whine and accept it and hold your hand out for money.

12 hours ago, dialamah said:

Let's look at the indigenous people of Canada.  

My opinion is that the trauma suffered by our ancestor's attempts to 'civilize' them for their own good is trauma passed down through generations.   The fact that until the 50's they had to ask permission attend university, and could only do so if they agreed to essentially renounce their family, roots and culture or that until 2014, they had to get a special permit in order to sell anything off-reserve matters. 

Lots of people experienced traumas. How did the Jews who fled here from Europe after WW2 behave? Did they sit around whining about how hard they'd had it or did they set to work making a life for themselves?

You think the natives had it worse than the Irish? The Irish were conquered and colonized. Their religion and language were banned and it was illegal to educate their kids. They lived on what had been their land but was now owned by an English landlord. They worked the land but had to turn over all the food. They lived in mud and straw huts without windows or floors, with their landlord's livestock in with them. A rich Irish tenant farmer ate potatoes three times a day, a poor one only once. When the potato famine hit they died by the hundreds of thousands because the English couldn't care less. When they fled to Canada and the US they were treated like dogs.

But they never sat in a corner and whined and acted like victims and hid themselves away from society to protect their 'culture'. 

As for the rules they live under. If Ottawa could dump the Indian Act they would in a second, but can't get agreement from the natives on what to replace it with, if anything.

12 hours ago, dialamah said:

And, how many years has Canada ignored the fact that many reserves don't have clean drinking water?

And how many times has Canada built water treatment facilities, handed them over to the natives, and seen them fall apart due to lack of regular maintenance?

 

 

12 hours ago, dialamah said:

Alcohol/drugs to kill the pain of losing their culture, rejected by both their society and the white society, stuck in no-man's land. 

Oh cry me a freaking river. The Irish didn't lose their culture and neither have natives. Nor are they rejected by society.

12 hours ago, dialamah said:

My opinion is that in order to help Indigenous people leave poverty behind, we have to acknowledge what happened, stop telling them what they need to do to 'heal' and listen to what they tell us they need.

How many people come to Canada ever year from shit countries where they've seen their own families murdered? Yet the natives, alone in all the world, have to hide away on reserves and weep for their fate as people like you encourage them to wallow in victimhood.

 

12 hours ago, dialamah said:

Well, we've been importing people India for over 100 years; India has a very different culture and religious belief, but somehow we've survived.  Over 2 million East Indians in Canada, and yet - we still have Christmas and Easter, rape is still against the law and we can still kill cattle.  We've been importing Muslims for about a 100 years, too; did you even know that? 

Did you know that the numbers of Indians and Muslims were miniscule until the 1970s when Trudeau liberalized immigration from non-European countries? There were only 33k Muslims in all of Canada in 1971. There were about twice as many Indo-Canadians. 

12 hours ago, dialamah said:

  And, the last survey you posted regarding Muslims in Canada showed quite clearly that the younger the Muslim person was when arriving in Canada, or if they were born in Canada, the more progressive their views were.  So you know, your claim that it 'remains to be seen' has already been disproven.  Repeatedly.

It's funny how you describe the views of Muslims as 'progressive' when a white Christian holding the exact same views would be condemned as alt-right, homophobic, transphobic, anti-Semitic and misogynistic. Different standards for people of different colours is the liberal way.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Government in Canada right now provides as much opportunity as is reasonable for government without essentially taking over all businesses (the means of production).  Indigenous get much more than all other Canadians, including not having to pay taxes while living on reserves that are essentially permanently granted free land.  Health and education are covered by taxpaying Canadians, including university.  Indigenous races are incredibly privileged in Canada.  Yet as taxpaying Canadians pay for all this, they also must apologize for generations-old “colonialism” that they didn’t implement or maintain.  Oh, and cancel Canada Day because present-day Canadians don’t deserve to celebrate and should be ashamed of themselves.  

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

  Oh, and cancel Canada Day because present-day Canadians don’t deserve to celebrate and should be ashamed of themselves.  

ah well, no problem

fall back to the 1 July that really matters in the end

Battle of the Boyne 1690

Glorious Revolution

God save King Billy & the Enlightenment itself

Happy Dominion Day, Johnny Canuck

nec aspera terrent