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Do you believe that Jesus really existed ?


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On 3/15/2022 at 9:10 PM, Dowell said:

Some of it had to do with keeping the line of Abraham separate, some had to do with the lack of refrigeration.

So god doesn’t really enter into it?   What you seem to be saying is the these were people writing down some best practices to stay healthy, but trying to convince people through a fear of punishment from a higher power.  
 

I can accept that explanation.  It does throw the rest of the book into doubt that it was inspired by a god though, does it not?   

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On 3/17/2022 at 10:05 AM, French Patriot said:

Healthy pigs are no less edible than goats.

Believe as you will though.

Regards

DL

You are viewing the Bible through a modern lense. Obviously our farming has changed and we aren't exactly hunting wild boar anymore to survive

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3 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

So god doesn’t really enter into it?   What you seem to be saying is the these were people writing down some best practices to stay healthy, but trying to convince people through a fear of punishment from a higher power.  
 

I can accept that explanation.  It does throw the rest of the book into doubt that it was inspired by a god though, does it not?   

How so? If some devine knowledge helped folks stay healthy and multiply while wandering the desert, wouldn't that be a miracle of sort?

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Did Jesus really exist? Sure. Why not?

Was Jesus "The Son of God"? Well...if you believe there is a God, then yes...as we are ALL sons and daughters of God.

My family were Catholics. We did the church thing until I was about 6. I will never forget looking up at the pulpit and thinking how frightening the image was of this poor bugger unceremoniously nailed to a crucifix. Do I think that image is there to remind us that this Jesus person supposedly died like that in order to cleanse humanity of sin? LOL...no. That's what we tend to call...silly.

The Abrahamic religions..."The Dirty Three". The use of a Gawd-like power, or entity, to scare the populace into submission. These three "religions" (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) are responsible for horrendous acts of inhumanity...in the name of a Gawd? Hmmm...and which Gawd might that be? The Gawd of creation? Or the Gawd of chaos and hatred? The answer is...of course...rather obvious.

I do believe in a Gawd. A source of creation and of the soul that all living beings have to some degree. I also believe this Gawd has some interesting plans for a goodly number of the clergy of these three..."religions". And should I have the opportunity to commune with the soul of Jesus some day...

I will apologize to him profusely for the unbridled greed and destruction that has been inflicted on the soul of man...in his name.

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22 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

So god doesn’t really enter into it?   What you seem to be saying is the these were people writing down some best practices to stay healthy, but trying to convince people through a fear of punishment from a higher power.  
 

I can accept that explanation.  It does throw the rest of the book into doubt that it was inspired by a god though, does it not?   

It is a father telling His children how to be safe.

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On 3/21/2022 at 10:31 AM, French Patriot said:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

 

You seem fond of telling a father that he can't forgive His children. He can.

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5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

The Abrahamic religions..."The Dirty Three". The use of a Gawd-like power, or entity, to scare the populace into submission. These three "religions" (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) are responsible for horrendous acts of inhumanity...in the name of a Gawd? Hmmm...and which Gawd might that be? The Gawd of creation? Or the Gawd of chaos and hatred? The answer is...of course...rather obvious.

There is no end to the list of peoples that have committed  horrendous acts of inhumanity. There were the Persians, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, Romans,  Mongols, Huns, Celts and the  Vikings, to name a few. More recently there has been the Japanese Empire, the Nazis, the Stalinist Soviet Union, and Russia under Putin. The main thing that is common to all these, is a love of power that is greater than their compassion for their fellow man. This is not true of Jesus.  He ministered to the poor, healed the sick, He accepted a tax collector as on of His disciples. When the people saw all that He had done, they wanted to make Him their king, but he refused, and hid from them. Many will call themselves Christians, but only those who live as He showed us we should, are part of His redeemed.

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6 minutes ago, Dowell said:

There is no end to the list of peoples that have committed  horrendous acts of inhumanity. There were the Persians, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, Romans,  Mongols, Huns, Celts and the  Vikings, to name a few. More recently there has been the Japanese Empire, the Nazis, the Stalinist Soviet Union, and Russia under Putin. The main thing that is common to all these, is a love of power that is greater than their compassion for their fellow man. This is not true of Jesus.  He ministered to the poor, healed the sick, He accepted a tax collector as on of His disciples. When the people saw all that He had done, they wanted to make Him their king, but he refused, and hid from them. Many will call themselves Christians, but only those who live as He showed us we should, are part of His redeemed.

I would agree with this. Gawd...God...Jesus...

I cannot believe that the very soul of creation can be happy about all the murder and destruction done by man in their/his names.

As you have pointed out, man is capable of horrendous acts of evil. Our history is littered with them. It is unfortunate that these "religions" decorate the halls of tyrants. But they do. One scene I'd like to see is the soul of Jesus himself, greeting any number of Popes at the gates to the everlasting.

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5 hours ago, Dowell said:

There is no end to the list of peoples that have committed  horrendous acts of inhumanity. There were the Persians, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, Romans,  Mongols, Huns, Celts and the  Vikings, to name a few. More recently there has been the Japanese Empire, the Nazis, the Stalinist Soviet Union, and Russia under Putin. The main thing that is common to all these, is a love of power that is greater than their compassion for their fellow man. This is not true of Jesus.  He ministered to the poor, healed the sick, He accepted a tax collector as on of His disciples. When the people saw all that He had done, they wanted to make Him their king, but he refused, and hid from them. Many will call themselves Christians, but only those who live as He showed us we should, are part of His redeemed.

Justin Trudeau...

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7 hours ago, Nationalist said:

But they do. One scene I'd like to see is the soul of Jesus himself, greeting any number of Popes at the gates to the everlasting.

unfortunately the popes are human, and suffer from human failings. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Some popes forget that they are there to serve, and desire to be served instead. Sometimes they put what is good for the church ahead of what is good for the people. Great expectations don't always bring great results.

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7 hours ago, Dowell said:

unfortunately the popes are human, and suffer from human failings. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Some popes forget that they are there to serve, and desire to be served instead. Sometimes they put what is good for the church ahead of what is good for the people. Great expectations don't always bring great results.

That's true. But how do you square that with your beliefs? 

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On 3/23/2022 at 3:18 AM, Nationalist said:

That's true. But how do you square that with your beliefs? 

My faith is not in the church, it is in God. I can’t explain in a few sentences all that I believe, but Jesus gave us an insight with this parable.

Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.  But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.  When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them.  Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

 

What you believe is not what separates the wheat from the tares, it is how you live. Those who care for others, and treat them with the respect that they would want to be treated with themselves will be welcomed into God’s kingdom.

Those who care only for themselves are the tares. They are the ones who cause the suffering that you alluded to. When our time on earth is over we will be reunited with our Father, or will not be.

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1 hour ago, Dowell said:

My faith is not in the church, it is in God. I can’t explain in a few sentences all that I believe, but Jesus gave us an insight with this parable.

Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.  But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.  When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them.  Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

 

What you believe is not what separates the wheat from the tares, it is how you live. Those who care for others, and treat them with the respect that they would want to be treated with themselves will be welcomed into God’s kingdom.

Those who care only for themselves are the tares. They are the ones who cause the suffering that you alluded to. When our time on earth is over we will be reunited with our Father, or will not be.

OK then we're mostly in agreement. I'm hardly interested in any formal "churches" or "religions". But I know Gawd (and I spell it that way to distinguish the "Church's God" with the entity I believe really exists. You know...the one who will be able to separate the wheat from the weeds).

I'm likely a little less forgiving than you are in our corporeal form. But I have a feeling we're both headed in the same direction.

Edited by Nationalist
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From what I understand, there's no physical evidence that empirically proves Jesus existed.

Excuse my ignorance if I'm wrong, as usual, but the gospels were maintained purely by "oral tradition" for about the first 100 years, before some apparently wise pilgrim decided to write them down. You can imagine things getting a little exaggerated or modified over that stretch of time. But hey. Let's assume they didn't embellish things a little.

Then, ya got yer Romanization of Christ. Jesus, the Conqueror, Jesus the Slayer.

 

See also How a Jewish cult took over the empire that originally cast them out of their own land, and overturned the tables, and played a huge joke on them.

 

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Quote

From what I understand, there's no physical evidence that empirically proves Jesus existed.

Always the same, you remove the sophisms, the propaganda and there is nothing left about Jesus.  

Otherwise it gives physical evidence, Shroud of Turin and arguments or evidence from "scientists" working for STURP. 

Whether Jesus is a fictional character like Adam or a character with a real basis (but a bit more serious than for example a mouse as real base for Mickey) doesn't seem possible to me but the interest with Jesus behind this question of existence or non-existence is to see that people are indoctrinated, conditioned or manipulated into believing it whereas if we look for methods against disinformation, propaganda, it seems to me that we are led to reject a historical consensus based on wind.  

Edited by Jean-Kevin
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32 minutes ago, Jean-Kevin said:

Whether Jesus is a fictional character like Adam or a character with a real basis

Adam was a fictional character?

33 minutes ago, Jean-Kevin said:

the interest with Jesus behind this question of existence or non-existence is to see that people are indoctrinated, conditioned or manipulated into believing it

You did use the word "believe" in the question, and this makes it harder to answer. A belief does not depend on evidence.

35 minutes ago, Jean-Kevin said:

ou remove the sophisms, the propaganda and there is nothing left about Jesus.

The sophisms are all we need, imo. We don't need Jesus, he is but a vehicle for these.

Hence like straw dogs that are worshipped and then burned to ash, he must be crucified. Again and again.

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On 3/24/2022 at 4:38 PM, OftenWrong said:

From what I understand, there's no physical evidence that empirically proves Jesus existed.

Some of the most credible menof thre time believed in Jesus. Peter was a leader of men, and became the leader of the early church. Unlike most powerful men diverted praise and adulation from himse;f to Jesus, even to the point that He was put to death rather than deny Jesus, and pay tribute to the Roman gods.  Tradition holds that he requested to be crucified upside down, because  he didn’t consider himself worthy of dying the same way that Jesus did.

 

Paul, the most prolilfic wrier of the New testament who was instrumental in the formation and development of many of  the  major churces throughout Grece also testified to the life and teaching of Jesus. He also chose death over denying Christ/

 Publius Cornelius Tacitus  was a Roman historian and politician. Tacitus is widely regarded as one of the greatest Roman historians by modern scholars.[He wrote: Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .5

 

Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared

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22 hours ago, Jean-Kevin said:

people are indoctrinated, conditioned or manipulated into believing it whereas if we look for methods against disinformation, propaganda, it seems to me that we are led to reject a historical consensus based on wind.  

I am guessing by your words that you have never read the bible, and are just spewing your own opinion based on this ignorance. Why not read the words of Jesus, and then  make an informed post.

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13 hours ago, Dowell said:

Some of the most credible menof thre time believed in Jesus.

That's fine by me, but seems non-sequitur.

One must differentiate between "believing in Jesus", and believing he REALLY EXISTED.

A will to a system is the antichrist.

System, Embodiment, Corpus.

Incorporated

The incorporation of Christ...

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14 hours ago, Dowell said:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared

Good information.

Many people were called Jesus, and crucifiction was a method of execution for prisoners of the state. Many Jewish prophets decried Roman occupation. The Jesus depicted in the new testament was one of those.

As for Saul of Tarsus, he never met Jesus. The man who was an executioner of Christians was raised in a bloody and war torn world almost deified himself. He even gave up his life for the belief, but then many Romans died for Caesar as well. And that is what he was selling. Jesus the divine... Roman.   ;)

 

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3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

That's fine by me, but seems non-sequitur.

Of course if you don't have knowledge on a subject it is best to ask those who do. Paul never met Jesus? You know this how? Multitudes of people went to hear Jesus teach, and thousands came to see him as He entered Jerusalem. How do you know that Paul was never among them. Paul did at the very least have a very intimate relationship with many who had met Jesus, persecuting them, and imprisoning many. A very intense relationship for one who never existed.

Peter of course walked with Jesus, and the historians of that era knew that he existed.

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