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Do you believe that Jesus really existed ?


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It seems, from a secular historian perspective, that an itinerant rabbi named Jesus existed 2000 years ago and stories were told about him and, decades later, these stories were put into writing.  

Julias Caesar existed.  And yet, he was deified when he died…. Caesar became a god.  Should we believe that part?  Probably not.

Why would we presume that just because there are clearly myths about a person’s life that they couldn’t have existed?  

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It seems, from a secular historian perspective, that an itinerant rabbi named Jesus existed 2000 years ago and stories were told about him and, decades later, these stories were put into writing.  

The fact that we think his name is Jesus is already a hint that this is fake news. Then to make it less obvious, we'll give it another name like Yeshua Ben Yosef but the basic problem remains the same, beyond the arguments of authority, of ignorance, fallacies what is left ? Nothing

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Why would we presume that just because there are clearly myths about a person’s life that they couldn’t have existed?  

If I take the story of Räel claiming to be Jesus' half-brother, going on a spaceship, talking to aliens etc. We don't presume that he (Claude Vorhilhon) didn't exist (he's not even dead yet, but if he were it wouldn't matter) because we have evidence that is a bit more serious than arguments of authority etc. 

Did Santa Claus exist historically  ? Ah yes in English it's easy to say yes because the name makes us understand that it's a falsification of the Santa Claus story but in French we say Père Noël and no one will believe that he existed even we can say that he never existed since the story we are sold has too little to do with a bishop of Myra in Lycia.

In the case of Jesus, as in the case of Moses, Abraham the opposite reasoning applies. Why are you so keen to believe that because there are clearly myths that means that these characters must have really existed and cannot have been invented ?  

 

 

 

 

 

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On 2/13/2022 at 7:24 AM, Jean-Kevin said:

Why are you so keen to believe that because there are clearly myths that means that these characters must have really existed and cannot have been invented ?  

I believe based on the expertise of secular scholars like Bart Ehrman.  Just like I believe that Julias Caesar existed, despite the clearly fabricated (mythical) parts of the histories.  

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On 2/12/2022 at 9:34 AM, blackbird said:

"13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13, 14 KJV

What is the point of posting this bible passage?

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2/13/2022 at 7:24 AM, Jean-Kevin said:

In the case of Jesus, as in the case of Moses, Abraham the opposite reasoning applies. Why are you so keen to believe that because there are clearly myths that means that these characters must have really existed and cannot have been invented ?  

It is so sad that people are so wrapped up in the existence of Jesus, that they miss the message he brought. It is not what you believe that is important, but how you live, and how you treat your fellow man. If everyone learned the teachings of Jesus, and tried to live as he taught us to, the world would be a better place. 

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12 hours ago, Dowell said:

He showed us the way, and your disrespect of him looks bad on you.

What way to salvation do you see him teaching?

This way?

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
   
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

 Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli - YouTube

 Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

 On Becoming an Adult - YouTube

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

 Gnosis enlightens adults.

Regards
DL

 

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On 3/6/2022 at 6:18 PM, Dowell said:

It is so sad that people are so wrapped up in the existence of Jesus, that they miss the message he brought. It is not what you believe that is important, but how you live, and how you treat your fellow man. If everyone learned the teachings of Jesus, and tried to live as he taught us to, the world would be a better place. 

Jesus told slaves to obey their masters.  If slaves had done that, would the world be a better place?

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15 hours ago, Dowell said:

By taking care of others in need. By treating others with respect and being a good neighbour. If you are not a good neighbour, you won't like the neighbours you end up with.

Good.

I was hopping you would not refer to some supernatural garbage and you did not disappoint.

You are correct in that we human save each other and cannot rely on imaginary genocidal gods to help us.

Regards

DL

 

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2 hours ago, French Patriot said:

What would you have told the slave to do?

I do not see any better options for him other than beg or starve to death.

Show your suggestions to a slave without any other options.

Regards

DL

If I were Jesus/God, I would have made my #2 Commandment to not own people as property.  And I would encourage slaves to rebel and disobey their masters.  

I’m God, after all….  I commanded people not to eat shrimp, but encouraged slavery. 

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23 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

If I were Jesus/God, I would have made my #2 Commandment to not own people as property.  And I would encourage slaves to rebel and disobey their masters.  

I’m God, after all….  I commanded people not to eat shrimp, but encouraged slavery. 

Suggesting that slavery or death is a solution to slavery is weird.

That is why Jesus would not suggest such foolishness. 

Regards

DL

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On 3/8/2022 at 4:20 PM, TreeBeard said:

Jesus told slaves to obey their masters.  If slaves had done that, would the world be a better place?

These passages don't condone, or encourage slavery. Slavery was not a choice for these people, but how they lived their lives was. Allowing yourself to become resentful or bitter is more harmful to you than your oppressor. Spartacus led a rebellion with the best armed, and best trained slaves in all of the Roman Empire, and it didn't end well.

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On 3/9/2022 at 7:16 AM, French Patriot said:

I was hopping you would not refer to some supernatural garbage

Science has expanded our understanding of the known universe immensely in the last 2 or 3 centuries. It has led to incredible advances in technology, and changed our lives in ways our predecessors could never dream of. It is so impressive that people have come to revere and trust  it completely, that it has become the new religion. Science is limited to the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. If something can't be observed, or experimented on science believes that it doesn't exist. Man has always known that we are more than a physical body with central processing unit. We always recognised that man had a spirit that was the source of life. Science now denies this, and it's followers wear this ignorance as a badge of honor.

"

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21 hours ago, Dowell said:

Science has expanded our understanding of the known universe immensely in the last 2 or 3 centuries. It has led to incredible advances in technology, and changed our lives in ways our predecessors could never dream of. It is so impressive that people have come to revere and trust  it completely, that it has become the new religion. Science is limited to the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. If something can't be observed, or experimented on science believes that it doesn't exist. Man has always known that we are more than a physical body with central processing unit. We always recognised that man had a spirit that was the source of life. Science now denies this, and it's followers wear this ignorance as a badge of honor.

"

No argument against this.

That does not negate that the supernatural is not the natural or best way to think.

It has a problem of evil while natural thinking does not.

Both science and religions have reached their Gods of the Gaps, but natural science has facts while the supernatural has nothing tangible. 

Moral science says we should cast Gods like the genocidal Yahweh/Jesus to hell.

If you supernatural morality disagrees, your morals are as good as your supernatural beliefs. Garbage.

This I can argue.

Regards

DL

 

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16 minutes ago, French Patriot said:

Moral science says we should cast Gods like the genocidal Yahweh/Jesus to hell.

If you think that you will be doing the casting, you are sadly mistaken.

 

17 minutes ago, French Patriot said:

Both science and religions have reached their Gods of the Gaps, but natural science has facts while the supernatural has nothing tangible. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

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On 3/10/2022 at 1:14 PM, Dowell said:

These passages don't condone, or encourage slavery. Slavery was not a choice for these people, but how they lived their lives was. Allowing yourself to become resentful or bitter is more harmful to you than your oppressor. Spartacus led a rebellion with the best armed, and best trained slaves in all of the Roman Empire, and it didn't end well.

God payed out the rules for owning slaves in the OT, did He not?

 

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On 3/12/2022 at 7:13 AM, French Patriot said:

I speak adult, not child.

Throwing fairy tales at me is useless.

Regards

This is from the Journal of the Missouri State Medical Association

 

Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

 

Near-death experiences (NDEs) are reported by about 17% of those who nearly die.1 NDEs have been reported by children, adults, scientists, physicians, priests, ministers, among the religious and atheists, and from countries throughout the world.

 

Near-death experiences often occur in association with cardiac arrest.  Prior studies found that 10–20 seconds following cardiac arrest, electroencephalogram measurements generally find no significant measureable brain cortical electrical activity.  A prolonged, detailed, lucid experience following cardiac arrest should not be possible, yet this is reported in many NDEs. This is especially notable given the prolonged period of amnesia that typically precedes and follows recovery from cardiac arrest.

 

Seeing ongoing events from a location apart from the physical body while unconscious (out-of-body experience) 

A common characteristic of near-death experiences is an out-of-body experience. An out-of-body experience (OBE) is the apparent separation of consciousness from the body. About 45% of near-death experiencers report OBEs which involves them seeing and often hearing ongoing earthly events from a perspective that is apart, and usually above, their physical bodies. Following cardiac arrest, NDErs may see, and later accurately describe, their own resuscitation.

 

 

 

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On 3/9/2022 at 12:37 PM, TreeBeard said:

I commanded people not to eat shrimp

I read the bible, not all of it though. I remember it said "it is not what a man puts in his mouth, but that which comes out of his mouth."

so eating shrimp's technically allowed,
thanks to Jesus...

;)

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10 hours ago, Dowell said:

This is from the Journal of the Missouri State Medical Association

 

Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

 

Near-death experiences (NDEs) are reported by about 17% of those who nearly die.1 NDEs have been reported by children, adults, scientists, physicians, priests, ministers, among the religious and atheists, and from countries throughout the world.

 

Near-death experiences often occur in association with cardiac arrest.  Prior studies found that 10–20 seconds following cardiac arrest, electroencephalogram measurements generally find no significant measureable brain cortical electrical activity.  A prolonged, detailed, lucid experience following cardiac arrest should not be possible, yet this is reported in many NDEs. This is especially notable given the prolonged period of amnesia that typically precedes and follows recovery from cardiac arrest.

 

Seeing ongoing events from a location apart from the physical body while unconscious (out-of-body experience) 

A common characteristic of near-death experiences is an out-of-body experience. An out-of-body experience (OBE) is the apparent separation of consciousness from the body. About 45% of near-death experiencers report OBEs which involves them seeing and often hearing ongoing earthly events from a perspective that is apart, and usually above, their physical bodies. Following cardiac arrest, NDErs may see, and later accurately describe, their own resuscitation.

 

 

 

More fairy tales.

Regards

DL

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