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Do you believe in a divine Creator of the universe and everything in it, including mankind?


blackbird

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17 hours ago, Scott Mayers said:

The only reason I mention these at all is due to the accusation that the atheist is somehow the deluded person for believing that we could derive from nothing.

Of course this is about respect. The problem with people that think they have all the answers is that they stop asking questions. The real question is not how life originated, but what we do with it. If you treat others with respect, and make an effort to make the world a better place for all of us, you will have made the right choice whether there is a God or not.

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On 5/13/2022 at 5:01 AM, Scott Mayers said:

How does the Big Bang theory relate? I agree to the perceptive that it was a type of 'explolion', but am a bit confused at you not recognizing that there are other non-Big-Bang theories proposed. But even given these different PHYSICS theories, how does the religious idea relate uniquely as an alternative to them all?

"Religion" [From Re-legion "speak of legacy"] which denotes ideas passed down by distinct ancestral history and what is believed to have happened BEYONE LIFE or 'other' worlds, times, or spaces. emphasizes "culture", art, or lifestyles" that are mostly arbrary and contingent factors, Religion though is cultural (social)"science", considered as a form of art(ificial) concept versus science as referring to physical reality

....or....what "science fiction" is to "science fact"; You can permit rellgion to fantasize about origins without a need to observe any common facts or proof. That is, religion can philosphize about reality but it can't speak for it without having some shareability to anyone arbtrarily and that doesn't begin with our particular senses we share in common. 

I will start by answering your question directly, then I may ramble a bit, hahahah

Is science necessary for faith? No

That being said, the interjection you have just quoted me on was in response to someone completely misrepresenting science in an attempt to discredit years of intellectual pursuit, based solely on his limited interpretation of an ancient text

I completely agree that when speaking about origins religions can, should and (when speaking to reasonable people) mostly do speak almost entirely on a metaphysical level  ( which I honestly have little time for)

As for share in common,  first it's pretty hard to find someone else in the same pew at church that have the same view on metaphysics as you never mind the same denomination,  or religion  or just any other person of faith, but the idea of going through the world with any strong presuppositions seems closed minded to me, I try to limit mine to reality exists and we all share it.

I will say I do appreciate the original poster views, as they lead more people out of the oppression of religion than any non believer ever could. 

 

Edited by SkyHigh
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On 6/7/2022 at 3:01 PM, SkyHigh said:

I will start by answering your question directly, then I may ramble a bit, hahahah

Is science necessary for faith? No

That being said, the interjection you have just quoted me on was in response to someone completely misrepresenting science in an attempt to discredit years of intellectual pursuit, based solely on his limited interpretation of an ancient text

I completely agree that when speaking about origins religions can, should and (when speaking to reasonable people) mostly do speak almost entirely on a metaphysical level  ( which I honestly have little time for)

As for share in common,  first it's pretty hard to find someone else in the same pew at church that have the same view on metaphysics as you never mind the same denomination,  or religion  or just any other person of faith, but the idea of going through the world with any strong presuppositions seems closed minded to me, I try to limit mine to reality exists and we all share it.

I will say I do appreciate the original poster views, as they lead more people out of the oppression of religion than any non believer ever could. 

 

With all due respect, I think you have not really addressed anything I said in my original post. There are many people who believe in false religion or hold erroneous religious and atheist views.  Whether they would be convinced of anything on these forums I don't know.  Only God can change a person's mind and heart.  God revealed the absolute truth in his revelation we call the Bible;  in English, the King James Version. 

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On 6/7/2022 at 3:01 PM, SkyHigh said:

That being said, the interjection you have just quoted me on was in response to someone completely misrepresenting science in an attempt to discredit years of intellectual pursuit, based solely on his limited interpretation of an ancient text

Saying that science is limited to the study of the 5% of the universe universe that is visible to us, and only a sliver of that is within the range we can see doesn't discredit anything, it just shows how limited science really is. Near death experiences correlate almost exactly with what we know of dark energy. Dark energy is everywhere, and moves the universe. You  may not understand that, but it is still true. And by the way, the truth never grows old. 

 

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1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Faith is the opposite of science, that's why it is called faith.

As far as the OP's question goes, no, I don't. I have no problem with those who do as long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on me.

 

 

What exactly does "impose beliefs on you mean"?  Pro theory of evolution people teach evolution in the public school system as ordered by the government's departments of education.  Isn't that what imposing means.  If anyone expresses an opinion contrary to your belief, is that "imposing" something on you?  Everyone is entitle to their views and freedom of expression.  I have no problem listening to views contrary to mine and don't consider it an imposition or imposing something on me.  So I'm not exactly sure what imposing beliefs on someone means.  I have often heard that phrase used by people who try to silence others from speaking.

Biblical faith is not a blind faith and it is not the opposite of science.  Faith in something in the Bible does not contradict true science.  Some of science today is falsely called science, but it is more of dogma that is clothed under the banner of science.  Examples of unproven theories that are claimed as science are the theory of evolution and the big bang theory.   Some of the world's greatest scientists who lived several centuries ago believed in God and made some of the greatest discoveries in history.  Just because a scientist denies the truth of creation by God today does not mean what he is saying is based on science.  There is no science that disproves the Genesis account of creation and real science is not trying to disprove the reality of God and creation.  So what this means is genuine science is not in opposition to biblical faith or the Bible.  They can both exist together.  There are many scientists who believe in God, the Bible, and still believe in science although they may not believe everything that is claimed under the banner of science by other scientists.

The theory of evolution is not based on the scientific method and has never been proven.  There are scientists who reject the theory of evolution although they are in the minority.  Truth is not determined by a majority and never will be.  The majority believed in a number of things in history that were later proven to be false.

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46 minutes ago, blackbird said:

What exactly does "impose beliefs on you mean"?  Pro theory of evolution people teach evolution in the public school system as ordered by the government's departments of education.  Isn't that what imposing means.  If anyone expresses an opinion contrary to your belief, is that "imposing" something on you?  Everyone is entitle to their views and freedom of expression.  I have no problem listening to views contrary to mine and don't consider it an imposition or imposing something on me.  So I'm not exactly sure what imposing beliefs on someone means.  I have often heard that phrase used by people who try to silence others from speaking.

Biblical faith is not a blind faith and it is not the opposite of science.  Faith in something in the Bible does not contradict true science.  Some of science today is falsely called science, but it is more of dogma that is clothed under the banner of science.  Examples of unproven theories that are claimed as science are the theory of evolution and the big bang theory.   Some of the world's greatest scientists who lived several centuries ago believed in God and made some of the greatest discoveries in history.  Just because a scientist denies the truth of creation by God today does not mean what he is saying is based on science.  There is no science that disproves the Genesis account of creation and real science is not trying to disprove the reality of God and creation.  So what this means is genuine science is not in opposition to biblical faith or the Bible.  They can both exist together.  There are many scientists who believe in God, the Bible, and still believe in science although they may not believe everything that is claimed under the banner of science by other scientists.

The theory of evolution is not based on the scientific method and has never been proven.  There are scientists who reject the theory of evolution although they are in the minority.  Truth is not determined by a majority and never will be.  The majority believed in a number of things in history that were later proven to be false.

The Bible is not science, it is a book written by many different people over an extended period expressing their beliefs. Christianity is also not the only religion in this world, why should it claim a monopoly on truth. Evolution and the Big Bang theory are not proved but based on observable evidence, mathematics and genetics, not faith. Science does change as the evidence changes, faith does not. Your so called creation by a God is not truth, it is faith. I can't prove it is wrong but neither is there any reason for me to believe it. 

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After a while you realize there is no dichotomy between scientific thought and spiritual thought. Both come from the same source within us, a yearning to know reality. But one is the expression of our rational thinking hemisphere. The other-irrational yes. That does not make it incorrect or useless. It is you.

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43 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

After a while you realize there is no dichotomy between scientific thought and spiritual thought. Both come from the same source within us, a yearning to know reality. But one is the expression of our rational thinking hemisphere. The other-irrational yes. That does not make it incorrect or useless. It is you.

I never said it is incorrect or useless. Atheism also requires an element of faith because neither can be proved. Religion is obviously of use to those who believe. As far as public schools go, we need to stick to current science. Religion is a huge part of humanity so students should be taught about different religions, their history and beliefs but they should not be taught religious doctrine.

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9 hours ago, Aristides said:

The Bible is not science, it is a book written by many different people over an extended period expressing their beliefs. Christianity is also not the only religion in this world, why should it claim a monopoly on truth. Evolution and the Big Bang theory are not proved but based on observable evidence, mathematics and genetics, not faith. Science does change as the evidence changes, faith does not. Your so called creation by a God is not truth, it is faith. I can't prove it is wrong but neither is there any reason for me to believe it. 

We all know the Bible is not a science book and never claimed to be.  But it is a mistake to use the word science as if it is the infallible truth on every matter to do with creation or the universe.  To many people the word science is their religion and if anyone says something and claims it is the science, they automatically accept it as the gospel truth.  They claim anything given the title of science is the absolute truth whether they have any proof or not.

When you use the word "evolution" you should always remember to add the words "theory of evolution".  A theory is just that, a theory.  It is Darwin's speculation and it is not supported by "observable evidence, mathematics, and genetics" as you claim.  You make that statement as if someone told you as one would make a statement of dogma of a false religion.  If you really want to learn some facts about the theory, you can go to the website creation.com and search for the book "Refuting Evolution" written by Johathan Sarfati, Ph.D.  It is available to read online at that website.

There is a vast difference between truth and falsehood.  There are many false religions in the world.  But you should not make the mistake of thinking that proves there is no absolute truth to be known about God, the universe, creation, our origins, and our future in this life and after.  You are correct in saying faith does not change, but only in the sense that if it is faith in the truth, that does not change.

It is important to understand that the Bible is not pretending to be a science book.  It is a book men wrote under the inspiration of God.  God who created the universe did not leave us with a blank page but gave us his revelation of how the universe came into existence, what the purpose of man's being here is, what the problem with man is, and what the solution is, and what the future is.  Science is not a religion and should not be put on a pedestal as a kind of infallible guide on par with the Bible.  Science is a study of knowledge.  God gave man his brain and ability to study the creation around him.  God created everything and the creation operates on the principles which God created.  Therefore science is just a gift from God.  It should not be made a god or used as a excuse to try to exclude God from the picture.  God, the Bible, and the discipline of science all work together, but one does not nullify the other.  Many of the greatest scientists that ever lived believed in God.  They did not try to pretend there was no God.  They understood and accepted that man is not superior to God and that we are created beings subject to our Creator.

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2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

We all know the Bible is not a science book and never claimed to be.  But it is a mistake to use the word science as if it is the infallible truth on every matter to do with creation or the universe.  To many people the word science is their religion and if anyone says something and claims it is the science, they automatically accept it as the gospel truth.  They claim anything given the title of science is the absolute truth whether they have any proof or not.

When you use the word "evolution" you should always remember to add the words "theory of evolution".  A theory is just that, a theory.  It is Darwin's speculation and it is not supported by "observable evidence, mathematics, and genetics" as you claim.  You make that statement as if someone told you as one would make a statement of dogma of a false religion.  If you really want to learn some facts about the theory, you can go to the website creation.com and search for the book "Refuting Evolution" written by Johathan Sarfati, Ph.D.  It is available to read online at that website.

There is a vast difference between truth and falsehood.  There are many false religions in the world.  But you should not make the mistake of thinking that proves there is no absolute truth to be known about God, the universe, creation, our origins, and our future in this life and after.  You are correct in saying faith does not change, but only in the sense that if it is faith in the truth, that does not change.

It is important to understand that the Bible is not pretending to be a science book.  It is a book men wrote under the inspiration of God.  God who created the universe did not leave us with a blank page but gave us his revelation of how the universe came into existence, what the purpose of man's being here is, what the problem with man is, and what the solution is, and what the future is.  Science is not a religion and should not be put on a pedestal as a kind of infallible guide on par with the Bible.  Science is a study of knowledge.  God gave man his brain and ability to study the creation around him.  God created everything and the creation operates on the principles which God created.  Therefore science is just a gift from God.  It should not be made a god or used as a excuse to try to exclude God from the picture.  God, the Bible, and the discipline of science all work together, but one does not nullify the other.  Many of the greatest scientists that ever lived believed in God.  They did not try to pretend there was no God.  They understood and accepted that man is not superior to God and that we are created beings subject to our Creator.

That is your belief and that is fine but it is faith, not fact. 

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5 minutes ago, Aristides said:

That is your belief and that is fine but it is faith, not fact. 

One needs to be careful how the word "faith" is used.  Some use it as if it is a blind belief in something.  Biblical faith is not a blind faith.  It is based on clear evidence of God and his actions as recorded in the Bible.  Belief in God is also based on observable evidence of the universe around us.  That evidence points to the necessity for an infinitely powerful intelligent designer/Creator, whom we call God.  Faith in what the Bible says is a gift of God and one cannot believe it unless God gives him this gift of faith.

One article describes faith this way:

quote

Where does faith come from? Faith is not something we conjure up on our own, nor is it something we are born with, nor is faith a result of diligence in study or pursuit of the spiritual. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it clear that faith is a gift from God, not because we deserve it, have earned it, or are worthy to have it. It is not from ourselves; it is from God. It is not obtained by our power or our free will. Faith is simply given to us by God, along with His grace and mercy, according to His holy plan and purpose, and because of that, He gets all the glory.

Why have faith? God designed a way to distinguish between those who belong to Him and those who don’t, and it is called faith. Very simply, we need faith to please God. God tells us that it pleases Him that we believe in Him even though we cannot see Him. A key part of Hebrews 11:6 tells us that “he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” This is not to say that we have faith in God just to get something from Him. However, God loves to bless those who are obedient and faithful. We see a perfect example of this in Luke 7:50. Jesus is engaged in dialogue with a sinful woman when He gives us a glimpse of why faith is so rewarding. “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” The woman believed in Jesus Christ by faith, and He rewarded her for it. Finally, faith is what sustains us to the end, knowing that by faith we will be in heaven with God for all eternity. “Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls” (1 Peter 1:8-9).

Examples of faith. Hebrews chapter 11 is known as the “faith chapter” because in it great deeds of faith are described. By faith Abel offered a pleasing sacrifice to the Lord (v. 4); by faith Noah prepared the ark in a time when rain was unknown (v. 7); by faith Abraham left his home and obeyed God’s command to go he knew not where, then willingly offered up his promised son (vv. 8-10, 17); by faith Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt (vv. 23-29); by faith Rahab received the spies of Israel and saved her life (v. 31). Many more heroes of the faith are mentioned “who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies” (vv. 33-34). Clearly, the existence of faith is demonstrated by action.

According to the Bible, faith is essential to Christianity. Without demonstrating faith and trust in God, we have no place with Him. Most people have a vague, disjointed notion of who God is but lack the reverence necessary for His exalted position in their lives. These people lack the true faith needed to have an eternal relationship with the God who loves them. True faith goes beyond a simple acknowledgement of God’s existence (James 2:19) to a life-changing reliance on who God is, as revealed in the Bible. Faith can falter at times, but, because it is the gift of God, given to His children, He provides times of trial and testing in order to prove that our faith is real and to sharpen and strengthen it. This is why James tells us to consider it “pure joy” when we fall into trials, because the testing of our faith produces perseverance and matures us, providing the evidence that our faith is real (James 1:2–4).                unquote

What does the Bible say about faith? | GotQuestions.org

 

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29 minutes ago, blackbird said:

One needs to be careful how the word "faith" is used.  Some use it as if it is a blind belief in something.  Biblical faith is not a blind faith.  It is based on clear evidence of God and his actions as recorded in the Bible.  Belief in God is also based on observable evidence of the universe around us.  That evidence points to the necessity for an infinitely powerful intelligent designer/Creator, whom we call God.  Faith in what the Bible says is a gift of God and one cannot believe it unless God gives him this gift of faith.

One article describes faith this way:

quote

Where does faith come from? Faith is not something we conjure up on our own, nor is it something we are born with, nor is faith a result of diligence in study or pursuit of the spiritual. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it clear that faith is a gift from God, not because we deserve it, have earned it, or are worthy to have it. It is not from ourselves; it is from God. It is not obtained by our power or our free will. Faith is simply given to us by God, along with His grace and mercy, according to His holy plan and purpose, and because of that, He gets all the glory.

Why have faith? God designed a way to distinguish between those who belong to Him and those who don’t, and it is called faith. Very simply, we need faith to please God. God tells us that it pleases Him that we believe in Him even though we cannot see Him. A key part of Hebrews 11:6 tells us that “he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” This is not to say that we have faith in God just to get something from Him. However, God loves to bless those who are obedient and faithful. We see a perfect example of this in Luke 7:50. Jesus is engaged in dialogue with a sinful woman when He gives us a glimpse of why faith is so rewarding. “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” The woman believed in Jesus Christ by faith, and He rewarded her for it. Finally, faith is what sustains us to the end, knowing that by faith we will be in heaven with God for all eternity. “Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls” (1 Peter 1:8-9).

Examples of faith. Hebrews chapter 11 is known as the “faith chapter” because in it great deeds of faith are described. By faith Abel offered a pleasing sacrifice to the Lord (v. 4); by faith Noah prepared the ark in a time when rain was unknown (v. 7); by faith Abraham left his home and obeyed God’s command to go he knew not where, then willingly offered up his promised son (vv. 8-10, 17); by faith Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt (vv. 23-29); by faith Rahab received the spies of Israel and saved her life (v. 31). Many more heroes of the faith are mentioned “who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies” (vv. 33-34). Clearly, the existence of faith is demonstrated by action.

According to the Bible, faith is essential to Christianity. Without demonstrating faith and trust in God, we have no place with Him. Most people have a vague, disjointed notion of who God is but lack the reverence necessary for His exalted position in their lives. These people lack the true faith needed to have an eternal relationship with the God who loves them. True faith goes beyond a simple acknowledgement of God’s existence (James 2:19) to a life-changing reliance on who God is, as revealed in the Bible. Faith can falter at times, but, because it is the gift of God, given to His children, He provides times of trial and testing in order to prove that our faith is real and to sharpen and strengthen it. This is why James tells us to consider it “pure joy” when we fall into trials, because the testing of our faith produces perseverance and matures us, providing the evidence that our faith is real (James 1:2–4).                unquote

What does the Bible say about faith? | GotQuestions.org

 

The Bible is the creation of men. Believers in all religions have faith, Christians do not have a monopoly. 

Edited by Aristides
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14 hours ago, blackbird said:

Only God can change a person's mind and heart. 

Wow. 

You never had a parent or friend who changed your mind on something?

You rely on a genocidal homophobe and misogynous God for guidance.

Do you think that your best choice of teacher?

God is close to Hitler. No?

Regards

DL

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14 hours ago, Aristides said:

Faith is the opposite of science, that's why it is called faith.

As far as the OP's question goes, no, I don't. I have no problem with those who do as long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on me.

 

 

I do not see how any good moral person can say they have no problem with the religious when they are preaching homophobia and misogyny against the equality law of the land.

Am I missing or misunderstanding something?

Regards

DL

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2 hours ago, blackbird said:

One needs to be careful how the word "faith" is used.  Some use it as if it is a blind belief in something.  Biblical faith is not a blind faith.  It is based on clear evidence of God and his actions as recorded in the Bible.

You lie according to scriptures.

If you had facts and evidence you would know and would not have to have that faith of fools.

You ignore your own biblical definition and thus show your lack of faith or belief.

If you have any though, do as Jesus said you can do.

What he did and more.

Liars cannot.

Regards

DL

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1 hour ago, French Patriot said:

I do not see how any good moral person can say they have no problem with the religious when they are preaching homophobia and misogyny against the equality law of the land.

Am I missing or misunderstanding something?

Regards

DL

It's called freedom of speech. As long as they are not advocating violence.

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18 hours ago, Aristides said:

It's called freedom of speech. As long as they are not advocating violence.

Wow.

If you cannot see the violence in homophobia and misogyny -----

Hitler was not violent initially. 

Neither were the religions that so happily use inquisitions and jihads.

Regards

DL

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3 hours ago, French Patriot said:

Wow.

If you cannot see the violence in homophobia and misogyny -----

Hitler was not violent initially. 

Neither were the religions that so happily use inquisitions and jihads.

Regards

DL

Hitler was definitely violent initially. What do you think the SA was all about? Hitler formed them in 1921.

We simplify everything by branding it as good or evil with no in between. There are plenty of tolerant good people  who are religious and there are others who are not. People of faith do not have a monopoly on homophobia and misogyny.

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On 6/11/2022 at 12:31 PM, Aristides said:

Hitler was definitely violent initially. What do you think the SA was all about? Hitler formed them in 1921.

We simplify everything by branding it as good or evil with no in between. There are plenty of tolerant good people  who are religious and there are others who are not. People of faith do not have a monopoly on homophobia and misogyny.

True, but the religious say they have the better morals.

Nothing quite as moral as a religion where a man has to hate his children should they be born gay.

Right?

Regards

DL

 

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10 minutes ago, Aristides said:

What religion is that? 

All Christian and myriad of Abrahamic based cults and religions, including Islam, are slave holding ideologies, and have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions.

Both of our mainstream religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.


The Theft of Our Values

Is religion an ideal barometer of Western values or merely an oppressor of them? The conclusions set forth in the documentary The Theft of Our Values...

 topdocumentaryfilms.com

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes.

Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.

Moral people will agree.

Regards
DL

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22 hours ago, Aristides said:

Things change. Many churches now recognize gay and lesbian clergy.

Most???

IDK.

True, for the progressive churches, but the more extreme right wingers are still throwing gays off of buildings.

If the West can't lead in this, we are not worthy of leadership.

Regards

DL

 

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11 minutes ago, French Patriot said:

Most???

IDK.

True, for the progressive churches, but the more extreme right wingers are still throwing gays off of buildings.

If the West can't lead in this, we are not worthy of leadership.

Regards

DL

 

True but judging everyone by the extremists in their number is a good part of what is wrong with the world these days. It certainly is in today's political climate.  

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