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On 12/7/2021 at 11:06 AM, Michael Hardner said:

You waving your hand at a book that is seminal does nothing to diminish it:

https://www.semanticscholar.org/author/D.-Hofstadter/1705575

More than 8000 citations... 

Everybody is 'exceptional' because everybody is an 'individual'.  America taught us that.

Interesting point about the DK effect.  

 

 

Michael,

1. Robert Redford grew up in California, travelled to Europe and imagined that he could re-create America.

2. Donald Trump? He did the same.

=====

Pierre Trudeau believed in the perfectibility of people: a federalist more than a democrat.

I preferred Rene Levesque: a true democrat.

Society should be based on what people are, and not what people should be.

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8 hours ago, August1991 said:

Michael,

1. Robert Redford grew up in California, travelled to Europe and imagined that he could re-create America.

2. Donald Trump? He did the same.

=====

3. Pierre Trudeau believed in the perfectibility of people: a federalist more than a democrat.

4. I preferred Rene Levesque: a true democrat.

5. Society should be based on what people are, and not what people should be.

1. I don't think that happened.
2. Trump was political Covid and didn't understand what he would do any more than Covid does.
3. No, he believed they could change.
4. Oh ?  You enjoy treason then :D
5. Then why have laws ?  Why bring the government in to curtail my enjoyment of my naturally murderous impulses ?

Think before you post ;)
 

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On 12/9/2021 at 8:14 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1. I don't think that happened.
2. Trump was political Covid and didn't understand what he would do any more than Covid does.
3. No, he believed they could change.
4. Oh ?  You enjoy treason then :D
5. Then why have laws ?  Why bring the government in to curtail my enjoyment of my naturally murderous impulses ?

Think before you post ;)
 

1. It did. Robert Redford was born in southern California. Then, he travelled to Europe. (As a Canadian, I have met many Americans abroad such as Redford/Clooney - they don't understand that they say more about themselves.)

2. Trump? People like Redford and Clooney simply don't understand that Putin views them as another Trump.

Irony.

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On 12/9/2021 at 8:14 AM, Michael Hardner said:

...

5. Then why have laws ?  Why bring the government in to curtail my enjoyment of my naturally murderous impulses ?

....

Like Pierre Trudeau, I too wonder.

But here's a thought Michael: what is the difference between a "government" and the "State"?

Canada frequently changes government. Does it change its State?

What about the US? France?

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9 hours ago, August1991 said:

 

Canada frequently changes government. Does it change its State?

What about the US? France?

Fair enough, but even the state decides what you should be.

 

As a human, I have unlimited potential but the state decides that I am a Frenchman, an American or Canadian and am limited.

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On 12/4/2021 at 4:11 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Maybe Canadians, who persist in a culture of order, need order.  Americans, raised in the culture of defiance and conspiracy, long for that.

Hofstadter wrote a book that you should read.

https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/

Americans also believe more in individual freedom than Canadians.  Canadians seem to have surrendered a lot of their freedom to various levels of government in the hope that such governments will be benevolent to them.  Americans not so much as they don't put as much trust in governments of any kind.  Americans are more likely to believe individual freedom is something worth fighting and dying for rather than surrender it all to the government;  Canadians not so much.  I suppose either view has it's pros and cons and books could be written on it (and probably have).  But if the people put too much trust in government and politicians there is always the possibility the people will lose their freedom entirely and become some kind of Marxist or Fascist state, which has often happened in history.

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On 12/11/2021 at 1:58 PM, blackbird said:

Americans also believe more in individual freedom than Canadians.

Historically, Canada is a country of Catholics. America is a protestant country.

Canada's first Catholic federal PM was an Anglophone - elected in 1892. We have had many Catholic leaders since, even in Ontario and from Alberta.

Joe Biden is only the second Catholic US president.

But all this is changing. Around the world, individuals are increasingly free to choose.

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On 12/11/2021 at 7:18 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Fair enough, but even the state decides what you should be.

 

As a human, I have unlimited potential but the state decides that I am a Frenchman, an American or Canadian and am limited.

IMV, the State is the society/Constitution in which I live. A government is one part of the State.

====

In Canada, I live in a federal State - each province sovereign - with various governments that change.

====

I have always liked the US Constitution's description of a Federal State: if it's not clearly central, it's local - but if it's not clearly local - it's personal.

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8 hours ago, August1991 said:

Historically, Canada is a country of Catholics. America is a protestant country.

Canada's first Catholic federal PM was an Anglophone - elected in 1892. We have had many Catholic leaders since, even in Ontario and from Alberta.

Joe Biden is only the second Catholic US president.

But all this is changing. Around the world, individuals are increasingly free to choose.

Yes, Canada is still somewhat mired more deeply in false religion and paganism than America.  In Catholicism you can be pro choice (look at Trudeau), you can be a Socialist (look at the Pope), and support liberalism.  It's a free for all.  Many Catholics have little to do with their church except at perhaps Easter and Christmas, but they are all in for evil progressivism, Socialist ideas, liberalism.  Many American have much less use for all that garbage and realize it will destroy their fundamental freedoms.

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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

1.  In Catholicism you can be pro choice (look at Trudeau), you can be a Socialist (look at the Pope), and support liberalism.   

2. Many Catholics have little to do with their church except at perhaps Easter and Christmas, but they are all in for evil progressivism, Socialist ideas, liberalism.  Many American have much less use for all that garbage and realize it will destroy their fundamental freedoms.

Quote

Liberals sought and established a constitutional order that prized important individual freedoms, such as freedom of speech and freedom of association; an independent judiciary and public trial by jury; and the abolition of aristocratic privileges.[1

1. See the definition above.  Liberalism (small l) came out of the reformation, ie. protestantism, and the resulting wars that ended up settling down into religious pluralism and western democracy as we live today.

2. It's nonsensical - liberalism is as defined above.  You live to fear and hunt the 'bogeyman'... the Liberal (big L) Democrat Catholic that the Klan themselves used to fear.  You need to stop living in ignorance, open your eyes and educate yourself beyond what little you know.

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2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. See the definition above.  Liberalism (small l) came out of the reformation, ie. protestantism, and the resulting wars that ended up settling down into religious pluralism and western democracy as we live today.

2. It's nonsensical - liberalism is as defined above.  You live to fear and hunt the 'bogeyman'... the Liberal (big L) Democrat Catholic that the Klan themselves used to fear.  You need to stop living in ignorance, open your eyes and educate yourself beyond what little you know.

Liberalism is not a part of the Protestant Reformation and never was.  Liberalism is antithetical to Protestant beliefs and Biblical teachings.  Take for example abortion on demand.  That is murder because human life according to the God of the Bible begins at conception.  Similarly medical assistance in dying (MAID), another law that liberals are proud of is also murder.  Then there are the great bywords of inclusiveness or diversity, which are standard liberal talking points which mean they support Islam and oppose Islamophobia, whatever that is exactly is not clearly defined.  Liberals have gone so far as to recently ban any kind of free speech between consenting adults if an adult LGBTQ person wants to seek counseling from a church minister or counselor.   This kind of liberalism is antithetical to the beliefs of people in the Protestant Reformation.  So don't tell me to educate myself.  I know all about liberalism and what is going on in the liberal mind and it's not good.

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2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

1. Liberalism is not a part of the Protestant Reformation and never was. 
2. Liberalism is antithetical to Protestant beliefs and Biblical teachings. 
3. Take for example abortion on demand.   ...
4. So don't tell me to educate myself.  I know all about liberalism and what is going on in the liberal mind and it's not good.

1. No, it was a reaction to it.  
2. Did you read the definition I linked to ?
3. That's a different definition... of course religion doesn't support abortion... you're against Liberals not liberals.
4. Yeah, you know squat... otherwise you would have read my link and clarified.  You don't care what other people think.  I do, and it's my downfall when I am bored enough to engage with reactionaries....
 

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5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

   I know all about liberalism and what is going on in the liberal mind and it's not good.

Let's say we're talking about 'L' Liberalism.  If it's not good - why don't we just ban it ?  I ask you sincerely.

I think the Liberal party is pretty centrist when it comes to Canada politics and the Federal Conservatives also, when they win power.  I may not vote for a party but I doubt I would call them across-the-board "BAD".  I don't understand the mindset of people like you, you don't seem to want democracy.

If Canada elects Harper, Trudeau or Singh... they are still Canadians.  Why do you whine about losing ?  I'll just ask it: do you want democracy or not ?

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6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. No, it was a reaction to it.  
2. Did you read the definition I linked to ?
3. That's a different definition... of course religion doesn't support abortion... you're against Liberals not liberals.
4. Yeah, you know squat... otherwise you would have read my link and clarified.  You don't care what other people think.  I do, and it's my downfall when I am bored enough to engage with reactionaries....
 

You talk about independent judiciary and fundamental freedoms as if that solves everything and created a godly nation.  In fact it failed completely because the people running the system do not believe in many Biblical morals.  They are more in line with liberal ideology.  This means the courts, particularly the Supreme Court had made rulings that in effect condone murder of the unborn and condone murder of people who choose MAID and in fact chastise the government for not hurrying up to bring the process in.  So you're wrong;  I do know what's going on in the system and find it abhorrent.

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3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Let's say we're talking about 'L' Liberalism.  If it's not good - why don't we just ban it ?  I ask you sincerely.

I think the Liberal party is pretty centrist when it comes to Canada politics and the Federal Conservatives also, when they win power.  I may not vote for a party but I doubt I would call them across-the-board "BAD".  I don't understand the mindset of people like you, you don't seem to want democracy.

If Canada elects Harper, Trudeau or Singh... they are still Canadians.  Why do you whine about losing ?  I'll just ask it: do you want democracy or not ?

I am not whining about losing or saying I don't want democracy.  I am saying the system we have produces much evil and immoral laws and practices.  Democracy has not solved that problem.  But we live in an evil world and no other system would produce anything better and likely worse as in Communist countries.  I don't see the conservatives as much different or better than the liberals.  

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12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Let's say we're talking about 'L' Liberalism.  If it's not good - why don't we just ban it ?  I ask you sincerely.

I think the Liberal party is pretty centrist when it comes to Canada politics and the Federal Conservatives also, when they win power.  I may not vote for a party but I doubt I would call them across-the-board "BAD".  I don't understand the mindset of people like you, you don't seem to want democracy.

If Canada elects Harper, Trudeau or Singh... they are still Canadians.  Why do you whine about losing ?  I'll just ask it: do you want democracy or not ?

Just an example of how bad the judiciary is.  In B.C. a man went on a wild rampage with his car from the city of Richmond into Burnaby, wreaking havoc all the way.  He smashed into parked cars and knocked signs down, and managed to do at least $28,000 of damage to various things.  He barely missed hitting some pedestrians.  After all that, he was given a thousand dollar fine and six months probation.  That is liberal soft-on-crime justice.  Not protecting the public.  Common in Canada.  He should have received a real jail sentence.  

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48 minutes ago, blackbird said:

1.  In fact it failed completely because the people running the system do not believe in many Biblical morals. 

2. They are more in line with liberal ideology.  This means the courts, particularly the Supreme Court had made rulings that in effect condone murder of the unborn a

 

1. Do you think that Christianity should be the state religion then ?  Should we enforce that ?
2. Yes they don't believe in the same religion you do.
 

Quote

3.  I am saying the system we have produces much evil and immoral laws and practices.  Democracy has not solved that problem.  

3. Ok, but it sounds like enforced Christianity would address this

Quote

4.  After all that, he was given a thousand dollar fine and six months probation.  That is liberal soft-on-crime justice.  Not protecting the public.  Common in Canada.  He should have received a real jail sentence.  

4. Some Christians are very soft on crime too.  For example, my parents were.

You have your own idea of Christianity, but it's not everyones.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Do you think that Christianity should be the state religion then ?  Should we enforce that ?
2. Yes they don't believe in the same religion you do.
 

3. Ok, but it sounds like enforced Christianity would address this

4. Some Christians are very soft on crime too.  For example, my parents were.

You have your own idea of Christianity, but it's not everyones.

Canada was more of a Judeo-Christian society in it's earlier history.  In fact, in the a long time ago, I think churches were the people who started education.  Public schools read passages from the Bible to students every day.  Then about 50 years ago things started to change and Canada adopted multiculturalism.  Then they banned Bible readings from schools and declared schools would be secular.  Since then public schools have gone completely into liberalism / progressivism.  Young people are brainwashed with the liberal, leftist ideology including sexual orientation and gender identity ideology (SOGI) and now cancel culture. 

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3 hours ago, blackbird said:

1. Canada was more of a Judeo-Christian society in it's earlier history. 
2.  Then about 50 years ago things started to change and Canada adopted multiculturalism.  Then they banned Bible readings from schools and declared schools would be secular. 
3. Since then public schools have gone completely into liberalism / progressivism.  Young people are brainwashed with the liberal, leftist ideology including sexual orientation and gender identity ideology (SOGI) and now cancel culture. 

1. What part of it was "Judeo" ?  Are you aware that Jews were excluded from prominent Canadian society in our lifetimes and even this century ?
2. Well, that's not exactly how it worked but ... ok you want Canada to be a Christian state then.  ( Stop saying 'Judeo', it's cheap )
3. Ha ha.  Well, yeah ... I don't know what to say.  Clearly you hate it but wanting a cross on our flag,   You need to vote Christian Heritage my friend.  They got more votes than the Communists OR the Marxists.  ( But not as many as those two parties put together ;) )
 

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5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. What part of it was "Judeo" ?  Are you aware that Jews were excluded from prominent Canadian society in our lifetimes and even this century ?
2. Well, that's not exactly how it worked but ... ok you want Canada to be a Christian state then.  ( Stop saying 'Judeo', it's cheap )
3. Ha ha.  Well, yeah ... I don't know what to say.  Clearly you hate it but wanting a cross on our flag,   You need to vote Christian Heritage my friend.  They got more votes than the Communists OR the Marxists.  ( But not as many as those two parties put together ;) )
 

1.  The term Judeo-Christian has to do with the historical evolution of development of western culture.  It refers to the morals, laws, democracy, human rights, as having come from the belief in one God who gave ancient Israel the ten commandments and which was later passed onto the western world in Europe in the early centuries.  There were also some christians in the early centuries and down through the ages in the western world who did later influence laws and culture.  That is what made the western civilization different than eastern civilization and the rest of the world which remained totally heathen.  Later christian principles such as the ten commandments and respect for the individual were used as a basis of western morality, laws, etc. beginning around the time Christianity spread in 300 A.D.  That is why the west has democracy and claims to have human rights and much of the rest of the world does not.  Much of the rest of the world are dictatorships with no human rights.  See the difference?

2.  I don't think Canada will become a "Christian state".   As a believer in Jesus Christ, I am called to point out what the problem is and maybe God will open someone's heart to believe in his word.  One more person believing in God, Jesus, and the Bible is better than none.  I don't expect Canada will change in general.  I believe in pointing out truth which comes from God (the Bible which is God speaking) and perhaps someone or a few will be led by God to agree.  Mankind needs to change.  We live in an evil world.  If you can't see that, you need to take your blinders off and look around and examine your own beliefs.  I know this is an old cliche that many false religionists use, but there is some truth in the saying one is on the side of God, or on the side of the Devil.  If I am not mistaken, the Bible divides humanity into three groups:  the Jew, the Gentile and the Church of God.

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5 hours ago, blackbird said:

1.  The term Judeo-Christian has to do with the historical evolution of development of western culture.  It refers to the morals, laws, democracy, human rights, as having come from the belief in one God who gave ancient Israel the ten commandments and which was later passed onto the western world in Europe in the early centuries. 

2. That is what made the western civilization different than eastern civilization and the rest of the world which remained totally heathen. 

3. Later christian principles such as the ten commandments and respect for the individual were used as a basis of western morality, laws, etc. beginning around the time Christianity spread in 300 A.D. 

4. That is why the west has democracy and claims to have human rights and much of the rest of the world does not.  Much of the rest of the world are dictatorships with no human rights.  See the difference?

5.  I don't think Canada will become a "Christian state".   

6. We live in an evil world.  If you can't see that, you need to take your blinders off and look around and examine your own beliefs. 

7.  If I am not mistaken, the Bible divides humanity into three groups:  the Jew, the Gentile and the Church of God.

1. So, nothing to do with Jews actually part of the culture, other than contributing the Torah then.  Got it, ok.
2. There are counties in the east which are not 'heathen', ex. Pakisstan
3. The Ten Commandments are CHRISTIAN principles now ?  Oh wow. :D
4. More revisionism.  It's generally accepted that the wars of the reformation, together with the emerging philosophies of the enlightenment from England, France and Germany created an idea that pluralism was desireable.  The United States was created without a state religion, out of that time.
5. Too bad for you.
6. I disagree.  And I read religious works as well as other books, so who has blinders on ?
7.  Interesting.  Never heard that part about three groups: where did you get that ?

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6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. So, nothing to do with Jews actually part of the culture, other than contributing the Torah then.  Got it, ok.
2. There are counties in the east which are not 'heathen', ex. Pakisstan
3. The Ten Commandments are CHRISTIAN principles now ?  Oh wow. :D
4. More revisionism.  It's generally accepted that the wars of the reformation, together with the emerging philosophies of the enlightenment from England, France and Germany created an idea that pluralism was desireable.  The United States was created without a state religion, out of that time.
5. Too bad for you.
6. I disagree.  And I read religious works as well as other books, so who has blinders on ?
7.  Interesting.  Never heard that part about three groups: where did you get that ?

Of course the Jews are part of the culture.  I never said they were not. 

Pakistan is not heathen????   Are you serious?  86.3% Muslim with blasphemy laws and the punishment is death or life imprisonment,  death being the first choice.  Heathen assumed to mean people who are not Christian.  I realize some define it as anyone who is not Jew, Christian or Muslim, but I go by the definition which refers to people who are not worshipers of the one true God, Jesus Christ.  The would make the eastern world in general heathen with the exception of there being pockets of people scattered around who are Christian.  

Of course the ten commandments are Christian principles and have been used as a basis for many laws.

Of course the Reformation was part of the change in society.  It was a major factor in western civilization from being under a complete dictatorship of Rome to individual freedom of conscience and freedom of religion.  Prior to that we had the 400 years of the Holy Roman Inquisition which was brutal for people who deviated from Rome's teachings.  The Inquisition did continue through the Reformation period in some countries.  It was used to stamp out any opposition to Rome.

 

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21 minutes ago, blackbird said:

1. Of course the Jews are part of the culture.  I never said they were not. 

2. Pakistan is not heathen????   Are you serious?  86.3% Muslim  

3. Of course the ten commandments are Christian principles and have been used as a basis for many laws.

4. Of course the Reformation was part of the change in society.  It was a major factor in western civilization from being under a complete dictatorship of Rome to individual freedom of conscience and freedom of religion. 
 

 

1. I'm saying they're not part of society, at least are slowly being accepted by white Christian Canada but slowly.  So 'Judeo' really is about their contribution of the Torah.
 
2. Definition of heathen

1. old-fashioned + often disparaging : of or relating to people or nations that do not practice Christianity, Judaism, or Islam

         https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heathen

3. They are Jewish laws, because they predate Christ.  They are in the Torah.
4. You are missing a big part of history... like from 400 AD to 1500 AD   - read the links on the years there.

 Now, my assessments of history are rather conventional but there you are.

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13 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I'm saying they're not part of society, at least are slowly being accepted by white Christian Canada but slowly.  So 'Judeo' really is about their contribution of the Torah.
 
2. Definition of heathen

1. old-fashioned + often disparaging : of or relating to people or nations that do not practice Christianity, Judaism, or Islam

         https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heathen

3. They are Jewish laws, because they predate Christ.  They are in the Torah.
4. You are missing a big part of history... like from 400 AD to 1500 AD   - read the links on the years there.

 Now, my assessments of history are rather conventional but there you are.

The definition of heathen also depends on who is defining it.  Each of three groups you mentioned would technically say the other two are not worshiping the true God and therefore would fit into their definition of a heathen.

heathen definition 3.

3. Informal

a. One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.

b. Such persons considered as a group.

A religion that considers people outside it's religion as worthy of death would surely not fit into a definition of being civilized or enlightened and therefore would meet the definition no. 3 (a) above.  A religion which believe people should receive the death penalty for blasphemy surely could not be considered as civilized and would therefore fit into that definition. 

The Bible also divides the world into three groups Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of God. So if the definition of a heathen is someone who is not a true believer, then anyone outside the Biblical definition of Christian (or Church) would fit that definition.  Also, anyone who Christianity would consider as unconverted or unevangelized would fit into that category.

Yes, I know the ten commandments pre-date Christ.

I never attempted to give you a running history from 400 A.D. to 1500 A.D.  What would be the point?

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57 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 

1. The Bible also divides the world into three groups Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of God.  

1. Yeah and I asked you for a cite on that, which you didn't provide.

And you want to use a definition of heathen that purposely excludes Muslims because you don't like them.  I'm not judging you, but you're not really a Christian in my books... you are just a guy who does things.  Peace out.

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