Increased Immigration not needed, will hurt workers

[Argus]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

So, how does one resolve these conflicts?  If immigrants make less money than Canadians and drive wages down, how are they also supporting extremely high priced housing?

Some immigrants are doing well, mainly the principle applicants. Some family class come over with savings. But the main issue is that when you bring in hundreds of thousands of people each year you need housing and we're not building it fast enough due to restrictive municipal and provincial zoning laws, regulations, bureaucracy, etc. I saw a study once that said a developer needs ten years to get through the process once they buy land before they can build a housing project on it.

 

[Michael Hardner]

20 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Come on. Are you serious right now.

Buying real estate in Canada is the way to go for Chinese aristocracy to leave their land.

I'll ask again - what kind of link are you talking about specifically ?

"Chinese" is not a specific enough answer.

[Argus]

There is no justification for high immigration and hasn't been for many decades. People reflexively go with it since Canada had high immigration for so many years. But that was when we were a largely empty country and needed immigration. We aren't and don't any more. Canada's population is larger than most. If you look at the countries in the world where the standard of living is highest, nine out of ten have lower populations than Canada.

The Canadian government has not done a macro study of immigration, of what it's done economically and socially, of what it can do economically, of what it can or cannot do with regard to an aging population, or even what particular skillsets we need in forty years. The last time they did such studies, in Mulroney's time, they did not find any great boon to the economy at all, and little benefit for an aging population.

The government knows this but doesn't care. While ministers make mouth noises about how immigration is a big boon to the economy or will help with an aging population the real reason is political recruitment. And it's one of those programs no one dares oppose because the media and Left will immediately start screaming 'racism' and 'xenophobia'.

In the US labour unions have not been supportive of high immigration because they see it as hurting workers. Canada's most powerful unions are all in the public sector, though, and they embrace high immigration. So there's no one to oppose it other than the conservative base - who are largely ignored by the party bosses. 

[QuebecOverCanada]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I'll ask again - what kind of link are you talking about specifically ?

"Chinese" is not a specific enough answer.

Monkey from Tribe B wants to go to Tribe A. Monkey buys hut from Tribe A first to not make Tribe B suspicious. Monkey eventually moves to Tribe B, after hut worth 10 bananas instead of 2.

Michael understood?

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Monkey from Tribe B wants to go to Tribe A. Monkey buys hut from Tribe A first to not make Tribe B suspicious. Monkey eventually moves to Tribe B, after hut worth 10 bananas instead of 2.

Michael understood?

I think I understand you... just not exactly what you are getting at.

Do you think Chinese nationals are buying up homes in Canada in hopes of moving here ?

[QuebecOverCanada]

20 minutes ago, dialamah said:

There are conflicting claims floating about:

1. Majority of immigrants to Canada come from certain countries, and generally make less money, have poorer economic outcomes than the fewer immigrants from other countries;

2.  Too many immigrants don't work at all, because they are part of family reunification programs;

3.  Companies take advantage of immigrants to pay lower wages than they would otherwise pay;

4.  Immigrant labour drives wages downward for all Canadians;

5.  This high rate of immigration is driving the cost of housing into the stratosphere.

So, how does one resolve these conflicts?  If immigrants make less money than Canadians and drive wages down, how are they also supporting extremely high priced housing?

I think the high prices are a result of foreign investment, local investment and, in some areas, money laundering.  

How is having more immigrants when the supply for housing doesn't grow as fast as demand, not having an impact on the cost of housing?

Please, I want to know your reasoning, because I'm in the real world, where there is supply and demand. Increased demand inexorably increases price if supply doesn't follow.

[QuebecOverCanada]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

I think I understand you... just not exactly what you are getting at.

Do you think Chinese nationals are buying up homes in Canada in hopes of moving here ?

Yes, partly. It's their way out of China, and they have access to an incredibly high line of credit since their home is so overvalued. 

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Yes, partly. It's their way out of China, and they have access to an incredibly high line of credit since their home is so overvalued. 

Ok - so how many Chinese immigrants came to Canada last year ?

Never mind - I will look into this for you.  Also - let's consider this an exercise that we can both contribute to. Although I have some knowledge I don't pretend to be an expert on this topic.

From this it appears to be about 28,000 Chinese immigrants to Canada in 2020
https://www.cicnews.com/2020/06/where-are-canadas-immigrants-coming-from-in-2020-0614659.html#gs.3m730x

From this it appears to be about 260,000 new homes created...
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/new-home-construction-in-canada-hits-its-highest-since-2007-1.1491347

So... it seems like new home construction is not only outpacing Chinese immigration X10, but also keeping up with immigration in general.

So, to my mind at least, it's not Chinese immigrants coming to live here.  

What else could it be ?

[QuebecOverCanada]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok - so how many Chinese immigrants came to Canada last year ?

Never mind - I will look into this for you.  Also - let's consider this an exercise that we can both contribute to. Although I have some knowledge I don't pretend to be an expert on this topic.

From this it appears to be about 28,000 Chinese immigrants to Canada in 2020
https://www.cicnews.com/2020/06/where-are-canadas-immigrants-coming-from-in-2020-0614659.html#gs.3m730x

From this it appears to be about 260,000 new homes created...
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/new-home-construction-in-canada-hits-its-highest-since-2007-1.1491347

So... it seems like new home construction is not only outpacing Chinese immigration X10, but also keeping up with immigration in general.

So, to my mind at least, it's not Chinese immigrants coming to live here.  

What else could it be ?

Your point is good, actually, and changed my mind a bit on the issue.

Specifically in Vancouver though, I know Chinese 'investors' go and buy those houses to leave China, and make auctions as high as possible for money laundering their money they made in China, so they can get a huge line of credit when they come here.

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Your point is good, actually, and changed my mind a bit on the issue.

Specifically in Vancouver though, I know Chinese 'investors' go and buy those houses to leave China, and make auctions as high as possible for money laundering their money they made in China, so they can get a huge line of credit when they come here.

Yes, now we're on the right track....   "Investors" ... Chinese nationals who can't bring money back onshore and need to keep it here to make more money.  Actually sounds like a dream for Canada in attracting investing.

So how do Canadians feel about foreign nationals buying up land ?

Well, people I know who bought in the 20th century are sure glad to have their homes worth many times what they paid for them and more than a few boomers are getting their assets bailed out by now having a path to retirement, ie. sell the split-level bungalow in Willowdale and buy an estate in Pembroke, then live off the difference.

But what about the "dirty" element ?  Wealthy Chinese are one thing but what about dark money ?

One Yonge St. East is one of the tallest buildings downtown, and the project was being run by the Kazakh Bank, and Michael Gold a Kazakh-born Canadian.  It got into trouble and was bought by Pinnacle Group, which this page says is run by organized criminals. 

https://www.gangsterismout.com/2016/06/hells-angel-damiano-dipopolo-and-de.html

I don't know, but my guess is that governments are turning their gaze elsewhere when it comes to assets bought with cash and laundered money.  I would say the real problem is, therefore perhaps, not immigration but greed.

Regardless - governments want money and that won't be changing.  Investors are out there with cash in hand to turn empty lots into lucrative assets that employ thousands are unsurprisingly not turned away.  And since we aren't exporting manufactured goods (from about 30% in 1944 down to 10% in 2017) then maybe we need this.  

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So how do Canadians feel about foreign nationals buying up land ?

technically,  you can only free hold the land in Canada

Elizabeth Windsor retains sole title of ownership as the Queen of Canada

[Michael Hardner]

54 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Elizabeth Windsor retains sole title of ownership as the Queen of Canada

What is the relevance of this point ?  The lady on the quarter won't be knocking on my door and sleeping in my bed, as much as I would like that.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

What is the relevance of this point ?

foreign nationals are not able to buy up the land, that narrative is misleading, they don't have title of the land

 

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

foreign nationals are not able to buy up the land, that narrative is misleading, they don't have title of the land

 

Well, then neither do we ... if an old British lady can bust my door in and sit on my toilet, right ? 

Or you could argue that the people own the land and land ownership is reification of an abstract legal relationship....

Or that the land is unceded...

I would say whatever you want to talk about - if it's not this - is off topic.

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well, then neither do we ... if an old British lady can bust my door in and sit on my toilet, right ? 

Or you could argue that the people own the land and land ownership is reification of an abstract legal relationship....

Or that the land is unceded...

I would say whatever you want to talk about - if it's not this - is off topic.

there aren't even any property rights in the constitution of Canada

in Canada, you simply pay a fee to live on the Queen's land, it's called a free hold

you don't own the land, you don't own what is underneath your property

so if someone from China free holds land here

and rare earths or what have you are discovered there

they don't own it

the Crown can step in and take the land back at any time, the compensation is not based on the value of the land

Edited June 11, 2021 by Dougie93

[Michael Hardner]

31 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

 they don't own it

And yet... real estate agents walk in gold-soled shoes... even in Parkdale...

You're out of order, counsellor

[Dougie93]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

And yet... real estate agents walk in gold-soled shoes... even in Parkdale...

You're out of order, counsellor

a free hold can be quite profitable

it's a market, you buy and sell the contract to live on the Queen's land, pocketing the profits

but if at any time it is in the Crown's interest to have it back, She can have it back, and She set's the compensation

so a bunch of Chinese or whoever could not actually buy up all the land

they are simply bidding in the market of free holders for the contract to live on the Queen's land

[Argus]

16 hours ago, blackbird said:

Read an interesting article:  Diane Francis: Canada no longer deserves a seat at the big boys' table (msn.com)   Liberals and left are causing great harm to Canada's economy, military, status in the world.  The liberal elites running things are amateurs and know nothing about economics or business.  They are preoccupied with building a politically correct branch of the U.N.

Diane Francis: Trudeau's immigration scheme is just another way to redistribute Canada's wealth (msn.com)

They are, as she says, a bunch of floundering amateurs with no idea what they're doing. They've attacked and hamstrung natural resources because they disapprove of them while doing little or nothing to improve or expand our economy elsewhere.

Our PM has no experience or training in economics, finance or law. Neither has our finance minister, whose degree is in Russian literature. Our health minister was a director of a homeless shelter and has no medical training. The minister of national revenue was a social worker. Our agriculture minister worked in tourism. The minister of economic development is a lawyer. Same goes for the minister of innovation, science and industry. The minister of Natural Resources has a degree in philosophy and no experience in natural resources. The Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade has a degree in political science and worked all her life in the public sector, mainly in education. The minister of labour has no experience with labour, but worked as a chaplain. The minister of fisheries and oceans has no experience with fisheries or industry. Her education is in poli scie and she worked with health care foundations. Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance also has no education or experience in finances or economics.

And we expect these people to come out with good economic policy? Or even understand and be able to judge what is or isn't good economic policy?

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Well, people I know who bought in the 20th century are sure glad to have their homes worth many times what they paid for them and more than a few boomers are getting their assets bailed out by now having a path to retirement, ie. sell the split-level bungalow in Willowdale and buy an estate in Pembroke, then live off the difference.

Regardless - governments want money and that won't be changing.  Investors are out there with cash in hand to turn empty lots into lucrative assets that employ thousands are unsurprisingly not turned away.  And since we aren't exporting manufactured goods (from about 30% in 1944 down to 10% in 2017) then maybe we need this.  

1.   I think the pandemic has opened up a lot of things, investors from every where are some part of the problem, Canadians working from home are another, i live in NB, and our housing market has jumped in value adding 60 to 100 k extra just this year, you can not buy a home without getting into a bidding war, and right now a large percentage are from Ontario, even out west from the big cities...

they are sell million dollar homes and moving here where 500 k gets you everything you ever dreamed of, without the commute, or crime, or hassles of living within the city or with the pandemic. The problem is now yes your making a good profit on your home, but your spending that profit to get a new one, unless your from another province where home prices are through the roof. 

Australia are finding out that to much foreign investment can be bad as well, there having issues with, in their case Chinese investors buying up complete industries, yes many are getting rich of the transactions but national it is hurting as these industries products are being pushed to china... leaving Australia short in some areas driving up prices again..

 

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

they are sell million dollar homes and moving here where 500 k gets you everything you ever dreamed of, without the commute, or crime, or hassles of living within the city or with the pandemic. The problem is now yes your making a good profit on your home, but your spending that profit to get a new one, unless your from another province where home prices are through the roof.

I've got the better deal, I bought the house for $400K, now it's worth $1.2 million

no crime, no hassles, no commute, the pandemic hasn't bothered me at all

just had to move one hour outside of Toronto, no need to go to another province

[Dougie93]

the fastest rising average home price in Canada right now is Hamilton Ontario, up to $834K

that's not foreign investment

unless you consider Toronto foreign

because it's all hipster Millennials fleeing the city

you walk around downtown Hamilton now, you don't even see any Ti-Cats fans anymore

it's all Toronto hipsters walking around with lattes now

if you want to get in on the value priced properties, you'd have to go out as far Stratford now

and the Millennials are, the prices in Stratford are starting to spike

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Australia are finding out that to much foreign investment can be bad as well, there having issues with, in their case Chinese investors buying up complete industries, yes many are getting rich of the transactions but national it is hurting as these industries products are being pushed to china... leaving Australia short in some areas driving up prices again..

Australia is coping quite well, actually. They are finding new markets and holding their own. Meanwhile China has a shortage of coking coal. Awwww. Australia has demonstrated it won't trade its sovereignty for money. Canada has thus far demonstrated the opposite.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

You would have to be some kind of stupid to not make a link between both. Come on, cut the BS.

Foreign ownership can be by non residents.  You'd have to be pretty dumb not to know that.

[RedDog]

As always with POTawa, we flood in people from the wrong places.

Cancel culture at our own expense.

[CITIZEN_2015]

13 minutes ago, RedDog said:

As always with POTawa, we flood in people from the wrong places.

Well said. You could have been more courageous and said limit immigrants from Middle East. While many from advanced middle eastern countries like Morocco, Turkey, Iran, Lebanon and Tunisia have shown talent and compatibilities however, the majority of others have not.