Suffering is not a justification for assisted suicide

[Guest]

Just now, blackbird said:

I see my belief in the sanctity of human life is a valid opinion that the government should consider when making the laws.  It is the same reason we have laws against murder or stealing or anything else.  I don't control what other people do or have the right to do.  You seem to think my belief is directly denying the rights of other people, but yours is not.  Your view which you admit is based on atheism, actually doesn't fit in with western civilization's historic Judeo-Christian society.  You worry about your right to assisted dying, but the human rights which you enjoy in western society actually grew out of Judeo-Christian principles of respect for individual human life and dignity.  That is nonn-existent in Communist countries like China.  The individual has no human rights in such systems.

The government should certainly consider all views when making laws.  Sometimes the laws are reasonable, sometimes they are not.  Can't win them all.

Your views, should they form the basis of the law, would most certainly be directly denying the rights of other people.  Mine most certainly would not.  My views would be allowing them a choice.  Yours would not.

That much is basic.

In many cases the human rights I enjoy were brought about despite Judeo-Christian principles, as those same principles were consigned to history's dustbin.  There are a few religions on the planet that should follow, as quickly as possible, in my opinion.

I probably have no view on Communist China that differs from yours.

[Cannucklehead]

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The accident theory has been dismissed by many famous scientists  because it provides no explanation for the complexity of creation and life for example.  The claim of some kind of cosmic accident explains nothing really.  It doesn't even explain how the atomic particles and the laws of physics that govern their motions and actions came into existence.   The existence of a Creator who designed and created everything seems far more logical than to say it all came about by accident.  

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/01/how-ancient-cataclysm-may-have-jump-started-life-earth

 

There are scientific theories available.  

 

[blackbird]

Just now, bcsapper said:

The government should certainly consider all views when making laws.  Sometimes the laws are reasonable, sometimes they are not.  Can't win them all.

Your views, should they form the basis of the law, would most certainly be directly denying the rights of other people.  Mine most certainly would not.  My views would be allowing them a choice.  Yours would not.

That much is basic.

In many cases the human rights I enjoy were brought about despite Judeo-Christian principles, as those same principles were consigned to history's dustbin.  There are a few religions on the planet that should follow, as quickly as possible, in my opinion.

I probably have no view on Communist China that differs from yours.

Western civilization is built on Judeo-Christian principles that recognize the rights and dignity of the individual.  Eastern civilization does not.

The complexity of the creation is evident in millions of ways that should demonstrate that the idea of an accident is nonsensical.  

gene:   

In biology, a gene (from Greek, meaning generation) is a basic unit of heredity and a sequence of nucleotides in DNA or RNA that encodes the synthesis of a gene product, either RNA or protein. During gene expression, the DNA is first copied into RNA. The RNA can be directly functional or be the intermediate template for a protein that performs a function. The transmission of genes to an organism's offspring is the basis of the inheritance of phenotypic traits. These genes make up different DNA sequences called genotypes.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The accident theory has been dismissed by many famous scientists  because it provides no explanation for the complexity of creation and life for example.  The claim of some kind of cosmic accident explains nothing really.  It doesn't even explain how the atomic particles and the laws of physics that govern their motions and actions came into existence.   The existence of a Creator who designed and created everything seems far more logical than to say it all came about by accident.  Even microscopic things like the genes are so complex that it is unimaginable that they just happened by accident.

I completely disagree, but allowing, just for the moment, that you are right. 

Why should the Bible be the word of such a being?  More to the point, why should such a being be concerned over whether my life is ended in months of pain and suffering, or with the tender ministrations of an angel of mercy?

Edited February 15, 2021 by bcsapper

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/01/how-ancient-cataclysm-may-have-jump-started-life-earth

 

There are scientific theories available.  

 

Yes, I know there are theories, like Darwins Theory of Evolution.  This has been debunked by many scientists.  I have a little book called "Refuting Evolution" by Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D.  You may want to read that too.  The website creation.com also has articles.  The faulty theory of evolution has had terrible consequences for the world.  The book carefully refutes evolution theory on a number of basis.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Western civilization is built on Judeo-Christian principles that recognize the rights and dignity of the individual.  Eastern civilization does not.

The complexity of the creation is evident in millions of ways that should demonstrate that the idea of an accident is nonsensical.  

gene:   

In biology, a gene (from Greek, meaning generation) is a basic unit of heredity and a sequence of nucleotides in DNA or RNA that encodes the synthesis of a gene product, either RNA or protein. During gene expression, the DNA is first copied into RNA. The RNA can be directly functional or be the intermediate template for a protein that performs a function. The transmission of genes to an organism's offspring is the basis of the inheritance of phenotypic traits. These genes make up different DNA sequences called genotypes.

Western civilization was burning witches and heretics just a few centuries ago.  They didn't do that out of offended secular sensibilities.  There are still those today who would deny homosexuals a right to a happy life.  Eastern civilization, in some areas, has fallen so far behind as to be almost unrecognizable as a civilization.  But that's another thread.

Complexity does not negate the idea of an accidental creation, as the current universe shows.

Edited February 15, 2021 by bcsapper

[blackbird]

5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I completely disagree, but allowing, just for the moment, that you are right. 

Why should the Bible be the word of such a being?  More to the point, why should such a being be concerned over whether my life is ended in months of pain and suffering, or with the tender minstrations of an angel of mercy?

Hopefully your life won't end that way, but the health care system does have many kinds of pain medications they use for people who have a lot of pain.  You sound like you are willing to give up right away and call for the death needle.  

[Guest]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

Hopefully your life won't end that way, but the health care system does have many kinds of pain medications they use for people who have a lot of pain.  You sound like you are willing to give up right away and call for the death needle.  

I do have a particarly troublesome hangnail at the moment.  I'll probably choose life.

You didn't address my question though. 

[blackbird]

Just now, bcsapper said:

Western civilization was burning witches and heretics just a few centuries ago.  They didn't do that out of offended secular sensibilities.  There are still those today who would deny homosexuals a right to a happy life.  Eastern civilization, in some areas, has fallen so fay behind as to be almost unrecognizable as a civilization.  But that's another thread.

Complexity does not negate the idea of an accidental creation, as the current universe shows.

I believe complexity of life does negate the accident theory.   Yes bad things happened in history.  That was partly because the Holy Roman Empire controlled the western world and even controlled kings, rulers, and everyone.  That was a false religion not based on the Bible.  It was tyrannical.  Fortunately many western countries had the Reformation and broke free from it.  Still bad things happened in countries that were still under it's influence or control, like Hitler and the Nazis.

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I do have a particarly troublesome hangnail at the moment.  I'll probably choose life.

You didn't address my question though. 

I thought I answered you.  What specifically was your question?  I don't agree with anybody denying homosexuals their rights.  They should not be persecuted or harassed. Everyone should have the same human rights.  I think they have the same rights as everyone else. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I thought I answered you.  What specifically was your question?  I don't agree with anybody denying homosexuals their rights.  They should not be persecuted or harassed. Everyone should have the same human rights.  I think they have the same rights as everyone else. 

I asked:

Why should the Bible be the word of such a being?  More to the point, why should such a being be concerned over whether my life is ended in months of pain and suffering, or with the tender ministrations of an angel of mercy?

[cougar]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

I don't think you can compare humans with animals.  God has given man dominion over all animals.  This is why we eat animals, fish, and fowl.

" 7  All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; {All…: Heb. Flocks and oxen all of them} 8  The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9  O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!" Psalm 8:3-9 KJB

You can keep the archaic primitive views of the Bible to yourself.

Those were drawn when man was still fighting nature, believing there is no end to land and that land was flat.

Denying other forms of life the right to land and the right to exist for the sake of expanding your own useless population is PERVERSE !

 

[blackbird]

3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I asked:

Why should the Bible be the word of such a being?  More to the point, why should such a being be concerned over whether my life is ended in months of pain and suffering, or with the tender ministrations of an angel of mercy?

The Bible says God created us in his own image and he loves us.  He does care what happens to us.  He has ordained that no one should kill another.  Once that command is violated, a pandora's box is opened and there is no limit to what man can think he can do.

[cougar]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The Bible says God created us in his own image and he loves us.  He does care what happens to us.  He has ordained that no one should kill another.  Once that command is violated, a pandora's box is opened and there is no limit to what man can think he can do.

Just about every US president has opened that Pandora box.

You think the Bible came straight from the hands of God?  I can let the crazy stick to their craziness, but only as long as it does not affect me!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The Bible says God created us in his own image and he loves us.  He does care what happens to us.  He has ordained that no one should kill another.  Once that command is violated, a pandora's box is opened and there is no limit to what man can think he can do.

Yes, but the Bible is a creation of men.  If there is a God, who created this universe and all the other possible universes, do you not see how unlikely it is that someone managed to get its thoughts and wants down on papyrus a couple of millennia ago.

[blackbird]

9 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Yes, but the Bible is a creation of men.  If there is a God, who created this universe and all the other possible universes, do you not see how unlikely it is that someone managed to get its thoughts and wants down on papyrus a couple of millennia ago.

There is proof in the Bible that it did come from God.

“Remember what I accomplished in antiquity! Truly I am God, I have no peer; I am God, and there is none like me, who announces the end from the beginning and reveals beforehand what has not yet occurred, who says, ‘My plan will be realized, I will accomplish what I desire,’ who summons an eagle from the east, from a distant land, one who carries out my plan. Yes, I have decreed, yes, I will bring it to pass; I have formulated a plan, yes, I will carry it out” (Isaiah 46:9-11).

These verses clearly teach that the fact of inspiration and the facts of history when taken together will prove whether or not a prophet had written the words of God. One unique feature of the Bible is the vast amount of prophecy or prediction concerning future events it contains. God challenges men to examine these, prophecies to see whether or not they have been fulfilled! For a prediction to be fulfilled in the way and in the time foretold by the prophet is proof that God spoke through the prophet. We will study this in detail in later lessons. This test can be applied to thousands of predictions in the Bible leading to the conclusion that God has spoken. The Bible’s claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit is the only possible answer to the amazing mystery of the foretelling of the future in accurate detail."  - bible.org

[blackbird]

13 minutes ago, cougar said:

Just about every US president has opened that Pandora box.

You think the Bible came straight from the hands of God?  I can let the crazy stick to their craziness, but only as long as it does not affect me!

There is proof the Bible came from God.  Google authority of the Bible and read some of the article.  One is at bible.org 

 

[cougar]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

There is proof the Bible came from God.  Google authority of the Bible and read some of the article.  One is at bible.org 

 

I will continue laughing all week.....

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

There is proof in the Bible that it did come from God.

“Remember what I accomplished in antiquity! Truly I am God, I have no peer; I am God, and there is none like me, who announces the end from the beginning and reveals beforehand what has not yet occurred, who says, ‘My plan will be realized, I will accomplish what I desire,’ who summons an eagle from the east, from a distant land, one who carries out my plan. Yes, I have decreed, yes, I will bring it to pass; I have formulated a plan, yes, I will carry it out” (Isaiah 46:9-11).

These verses clearly teach that the fact of inspiration and the facts of history when taken together will prove whether or not a prophet had written the words of God. One unique feature of the Bible is the vast amount of prophecy or prediction concerning future events it contains. God challenges men to examine these, prophecies to see whether or not they have been fulfilled! For a prediction to be fulfilled in the way and in the time foretold by the prophet is proof that God spoke through the prophet. We will study this in detail in later lessons. This test can be applied to thousands of predictions in the Bible leading to the conclusion that God has spoken. The Bible’s claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit is the only possible answer to the amazing mystery of the foretelling of the future in accurate detail."  - bible.org

That is not proof.  That is your belief, and the beliefs of others who start from the same position as you. 

Believe the Bible is the word of God, and find things you can say proves it, as opposed to witness things that prove it, and develop your beliefs from them.

There is no reason to believe there is a God.  But, having said that, if there were a God, there is no reason to believe it is your God, as opposed to any of the other Gods populating the myths and legends of the people of the planet.

[blackbird]

22 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

That is not proof.  That is your belief, and the beliefs of others who start from the same position as you. 

Believe the Bible is the word of God, and find things you can say proves it, as opposed to witness things that prove it, and develop your beliefs from them.

There is no reason to believe there is a God.  But, having said that, if there were a God, there is no reason to believe it is your God, as opposed to any of the other Gods populating the myths and legends of the people of the planet.

"19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Romans 1:19, 20

So you see, the proof of God is all around you in the creation, but you can't see it.

[Guest]

Just now, blackbird said:

"19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Romans 1:19, 20

So you see, the proof of God is all around you in the creation, but you can't see it.

I think the problem here is one of word definition. 

"Proof" is irrefutable evidence of a fact.  What you quoted there is just what someone wrote a long time ago, that has quite likely been altered in revisions and translations since, and is just an opinion.  Not proof of anything.

[blackbird]

24 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I think the problem here is one of word definition. 

"Proof" is irrefutable evidence of a fact.  What you quoted there is just what someone wrote a long time ago, that has quite likely been altered in revisions and translations since, and is just an opinion.  Not proof of anything.

"THE AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE Richard L. Mayhue Senior Vice President and Dean Professor of Theology and Pastoral Ministries After a brief look at the general concept of “authority,” this essay continues with an introductory discussion concerning the authority of God. It is developed in terms of (1) the declarations of Scripture; (2) the displays in God’s names, nature, and prerogatives; and (3) Satan’s denial. Then, God’s authority is discussed as it is invested in Scripture in the sense that the Bible is the voice of God and therefore speaks with His full authority. God’s authority in Scripture can thus be described as original, unalterable, exclusive, permanent, ultimate, obligatory, and consequential. Scripture is to be authoritatively preached and submissively obeyed since the Author of and the authority within will reward righteous obedience and condemn those who disregard and disobey His authority in Scripture. * * * * * The concept of authority is thoroughly woven into the fabric of Scripture. It is unmistakably obvious from Gen 1:1 (“In the beginning God created …” 1 ) to Rev 22:20 (“Yes, I am coming quickly.”) and everywhere between. This idea of “ultimate right” is inextricably linked with God’s sovereignty (Rom 11:36). Just how important is the authority of Scripture? Listen carefully to one of the preeminent Reformers when he spoke to this very question at the Diet of Worms in April, 1521. Martin Luther, under intense pressure to recant regarding “justification by faith” and other recently embraced truths from the Bible, responded to Meister Eck in this fashion: Since then Your Majesty and your lordships desire a simple reply, I will answer without horns and without teeth. Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason—I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other—my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen.

 What is truly known about authority did not originate outside of Scripture, but rather within. Thus, it is not a secular concept that has been co-opted by religion. On the contrary, it is a sacred element of the very Person of God. What Scripture properly teaches about authority has actually been shamefully distorted by this world’s system and wrongfully employed by all world religions. This essay intends to explore what Scripture itself teaches about authority, especially its own. AUTHORITY The rightful idea of authority has fallen on hard times at the start of the twenty-first century. Illegitimate forms and expressions of authority range from the illegal and abusive exercise of authoritarianism/totalitarianism to individual authority which emerges from a postmodern mindset of selfishness. The appropriate approach to the discussion commences with a working definition of authority in general, especially legitimate authority exercised in a proper fashion. A representative dictionary definition records that authority is the “Power or right to enforce obedience; moral or legal supremacy; right to command or give a final decision.” 3 Bernard Ramm suggests, Authority itself means that right or power to command action or compliance, or to determine belief or custom, expecting obedience from those under authority, and in turn giving responsible account for the claim to right or power.4 The NT noun (102 times) most commonly translated “authority” is ¦>@LF\" (exousia). A representative lexical definition reads, “The power exercised by rulers or others in high position by virtue of their office.” 5 There are many approaches to authority in a secular worldview, e.g., 1. oligarchical – authority exercised by a powerful few. 2. democratic – authority exercised by the people. 3. hereditary – authority exercised by those in a particular family. 4. despotic – authority exercised by one or more in an evil fashion. 5. personal – authority exercised by one person. However, with a biblical worldview, original authority and ultimate authority reside with God and God alone. God did not inherit His authority—there was no one to bequeath it to Him. God did not receive His authority—there was no one to bestow it on Him. God’s authority did not come by way of an election—there was no one to vote for Him. God did not seize His authority—there was no one to steal it from. God did not earn His authority—it was already His. God inherentl yembodies authority because He is the great “I AM” (Exod 3:14; John 8:58)   -tms.edu

Notice the article says God will reward righteous obedience to Scripture and condemn those who disregard and disobey His authority in Scripture.  The fact that there is a God who revealed himself in his creation and communicated his revelation to man in the Holy Scripture means we are accountable to Him.

Edited February 15, 2021 by blackbird

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

"THE AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE Richard L. Mayhue Senior Vice President and Dean Professor of Theology and Pastoral Ministries After a brief look at the general concept of “authority,” this essay continues with an introductory discussion concerning the authority of God. It is developed in terms of (1) the declarations of Scripture; (2) the displays in God’s names, nature, and prerogatives; and (3) Satan’s denial. Then, God’s authority is discussed as it is invested in Scripture in the sense that the Bible is the voice of God and therefore speaks with His full authority. God’s authority in Scripture can thus be described as original, unalterable, exclusive, permanent, ultimate, obligatory, and consequential. Scripture is to be authoritatively preached and submissively obeyed since the Author of and the authority within will reward righteous obedience and condemn those who disregard and disobey His authority in Scripture. * * * * * The concept of authority is thoroughly woven into the fabric of Scripture. It is unmistakably obvious from Gen 1:1 (“In the beginning God created …” 1 ) to Rev 22:20 (“Yes, I am coming quickly.”) and everywhere between. This idea of “ultimate right” is inextricably linked with God’s sovereignty (Rom 11:36). Just how important is the authority of Scripture? Listen carefully to one of the preeminent Reformers when he spoke to this very question at the Diet of Worms in April, 1521. Martin Luther, under intense pressure to recant regarding “justification by faith” and other recently embraced truths from the Bible, responded to Meister Eck in this fashion: Since then Your Majesty and your lordships desire a simple reply, I will answer without horns and without teeth. Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason—I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other—my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen.

 What is truly known about authority did not originate outside of Scripture, but rather within. Thus, it is not a secular concept that has been co-opted by religion. On the contrary, it is a sacred element of the very Person of God. What Scripture properly teaches about authority has actually been shamefully distorted by this world’s system and wrongfully employed by all world religions. This essay intends to explore what Scripture itself teaches about authority, especially its own. AUTHORITY The rightful idea of authority has fallen on hard times at the start of the twenty-first century. Illegitimate forms and expressions of authority range from the illegal and abusive exercise of authoritarianism/totalitarianism to individual authority which emerges from a postmodern mindset of selfishness. The appropriate approach to the discussion commences with a working definition of authority in general, especially legitimate authority exercised in a proper fashion. A representative dictionary definition records that authority is the “Power or right to enforce obedience; moral or legal supremacy; right to command or give a final decision.” 3 Bernard Ramm suggests, Authority itself means that right or power to command action or compliance, or to determine belief or custom, expecting obedience from those under authority, and in turn giving responsible account for the claim to right or power.4 The NT noun (102 times) most commonly translated “authority” is ¦>@LF\" (exousia). A representative lexical definition reads, “The power exercised by rulers or others in high position by virtue of their office.” 5 There are many approaches to authority in a secular worldview, e.g., 1. oligarchical – authority exercised by a powerful few. 2. democratic – authority exercised by the people. 3. hereditary – authority exercised by those in a particular family. 4. despotic – authority exercised by one or more in an evil fashion. 5. personal – authority exercised by one person. However, with a biblical worldview, original authority and ultimate authority reside with God and God alone. God did not inherit His authority—there was no one to bequeath it to Him. God did not receive His authority—there was no one to bestow it on Him. God’s authority did not come by way of an election—there was no one to vote for Him. God did not seize His authority—there was no one to steal it from. God did not earn His authority—it was already His. God inherentl yembodies authority because He is the great “I AM” (Exod 3:14; John 8:58)   -tms.edu

 

That's actually just a word salad of meaningless sophistry.  It says nothing about proof. 

Which is not surprising, because if there were actual proof of the existence of a God, we would all be being really nice to each other and not fighting and killing and doing mean and nasty things to each other.

But, we're getting into pantomime now, (actually we've been there for a while) on the issue of the existence or non-existence of a Supreme Being.  There seems little point in continuing down this particular path.  So go ahead and have the last word on it.  I won't reply.

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Him. God did not seize His authority—there was no one to steal it from. God did not earn His authority—it was alre

 

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

That's actually just a word salad of meaningless sophistry.  It says nothing about proof. 

Which is not surprising, because if there were actual proof of the existence of a God, we would all be being really nice to each other and not fighting and killing and doing mean and nasty things to each other.

But, we're getting into pantomime now, (actually we've been there for a while) on the issue of the existence or non-existence of a Supreme Being.  There seems little point in continuing down this particular path.  So go ahead and have the last word on it.  I won't reply.

You wanted some proof about God and the Bible.  There is proof in the Bible.  If you knew that a book made numerous predictions about the future and then these predictions came to pass, would that mean anything to you?

There are a number of such predictions or prophecies in the Bible that came to pass.  One of the important ones is written by the prophet Isaiah in chapter 53.  This was written 700 years before Christ, but describes what happened to Christ very well.  Isaiah is part of the Old Testament or Jewish Bible.  Yet this chapter predicts what happened to Christ 700 years before it happened.  Such an accurate prediction could not be invented by man and had to be the work of God.

A one hour video explaining this prophecy would be worth watching.  This is very strong proof that the Old Testament was written by men inspired by God.

youtube.com/watch?v=E97P-wTAzfc

Or go to youtube and search for John MacArthur:  For the Authority of Scripture

Edited February 16, 2021 by blackbird

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, cougar said:

I will continue laughing all week.....

The Bible has many predictions about the future that came to pass.  Like Isaiah ch53 predicted 700 years before it came to pass.  Hardly something mere men could predict.  Proof that it originated from God.