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How to cripple a healthcare system


oops

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I confess, my minimal knowledge of healthcare is confined to Saskatchewan. In the last two years, my wife received world class surgery to remove a benign tumor from her spinal cord, saving her from life in a wheel chair and my son, who shattered his ankle into "bone mush," is fully recovered. This was all before the pandemic. All this with a shortage of healthcare workers who go to extraordinary lengths for their patients. But I agree we have an over abundance of MBA's in all fields of endeavour.

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7 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

You’re not comparing like with like there. The Nordic countries are a distinct group. That is where you should look for Sweden’s peers. Supporters of Sweden’s approach did that at first until it became untenable. 

I was off topic

Edited by Queenmandy85
off topic
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2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

What if they die of the virus due to government inaction?

I am going to go off topic a bit here, but this is what Dr. David Nabarro said about lockdowns.

 

 

Destructive actions are worse than no action.  Think before you destroy.  Of course as was posted earlier the appropriate action would have been maximum testing, contact tracing, and isolating those who were likely to infect others.

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3 hours ago, oops said:

I am going to go off topic a bit here, but this is what Dr. David Nabarro said about lockdowns.

 

 

Destructive actions are worse than no action.  Think before you destroy.  Of course as was posted earlier the appropriate action would have been maximum testing, contact tracing, and isolating those who were likely to infect others.

Yeah, I'm sure lock downs had their proponents too.  Otherwise, why lock down?  That said, we still have no idea what the consequences would have been of government inaction, or different actions. 

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24 minutes ago, Aristides said:

But if people with Covid die because they are denied treatment, that is OK.

There are a total of 1200 hospitals in Canada, and 4706 hospitalizations for covid19, 885 of them in ICU> This is an average of 4 patients per hospital, less than 1 ICU  per hospital.  Not the story you government and media would have you believe.

1,200 hospitals

In total, there were over 1,200 hospitals in Canada as of 2019
 

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGRV_enCA911CA911&biw=1600&bih=757&sxsrf=ALeKk03ynaWUUrnwacjD7-OjTjaormC1Ig%3A1610843366304&ei=5oQDYNOGEumq0PEP8eCHsAo&q=total+number+of+hospitals+in+canada&oq=+total+hospitals+canada+how+many&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQARgAMgUIABDNAjoECAAQRzoECCMQJzoGCAAQCBAeOggIABAIEAcQHlCbe1jXqAFg2sMBaABwAngAgAHAAYgB8QSSAQM2LjGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6yAEIwAEB&sclient=psy-ab


 


 

HOSPITALIZATIONS

COMPARED TO PREVIOUS DAY

Currently*4,706

- 81

 

ICU885

+ 4

 


 

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/info/2020/coronavirus-covid-19-pandemie-cas-carte-maladie-symptomes-propagation/index-en.html

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On 1/15/2021 at 11:24 AM, cougar said:

This is because a large number of immigrants from countries with non-existent health care systems get imported year after year.  They wouldn't know better.    Also if you make sure you import only young and healthy people, there is little need of healthcare.   Wasn't health one of the pre immigration criteria?

We need to import immigrants to offset the fact that Canadians are not having enough children to offset our elderly population. The average family now has 1.5 children, which is not enough to replace all the baby boomers, who are now in their Golden years. Unless the fertility rate increases, we have to rely on immigration.  

It should also be note that immigrants tend to be healthier, and are less of a strain on our health care system than non-immigrants. Don't let right wing propaganda fool you.

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Quote

 

There are a total of 1200 hospitals in Canada, and 4706 hospitalizations for covid19, 885 of them in ICU> This is an average of 4 patients per hospital, less than 1 ICU  per hospital.  Not the story you government and media would have you believe.

In many places you will find a lot more than 1 person in ICU.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-transfer-patients-1.5865452

The GTA is transporting patients to other regions because they are running out of room. Last week LA county had over 1600 in ICU. They had 16 empty beds. They were telling EMT's to triage people before they transported them and to conserve oxygen because they are running short. That where you want to go?

Edited by Aristides
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17 minutes ago, Aristides said:

In many places you will find a lot more than 1 person in ICU.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-transfer-patients-1.5865452

The GTA is transporting patients to other regions because they are running out of room. Last week LA county had over 1600 in ICU. They had 16 empty beds. They were telling EMT's to triage people before they transported them and to conserve oxygen because they are running short. That where you want to go?

L.A. is not actually in Canada. Their citizens go to non Canadian hospitals as a rule. If you have knowledge of any Canadian hospitals that are full of covid19 patients, please provide a source.

Edited by oops
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1 minute ago, oops said:

L.A. is not actually in Canada. Their citizens go to non Canadian hospitals as a rule. If you have knowledge of any Canadian hospitals that are full of covid19 patients, please provide a source.

I just gave you one. Here is another.

https://globalnews.ca/video/7581404/coronavirus-critically-ill-patients-flown-to-other-regions-due-to-icu-bed-shortage/

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Years of restraint straining Ontario's hospital system: report


 

The report reveals just how lean the province’s 141 hospitals have become in recent years. Not only does Ontario have the lowest hospital expenditure per capita by a provincial government, at $1,494 compared to an average of $1,772, but Ontario is tied with Mexico for the fewest acute care hospital beds per capita in the world.

Ontario’s hospitals have faced low or nearly flat funding over recent years. Between 2012 and 2019, government funding to Ontario hospitals increased by a total of 5.4 per cent, compared to an average of 12.9 per cent among other provinces, while wages and population increased.

 

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/years-of-restraint-straining-ontarios-hospital-system-report#:~:text=Not only does Ontario have,flat funding over recent years.

 

It seems that Ontario has done more to cripple it's healthcare system than most. That with added opiod cases longer waiting lists, has really diminished their capacity to cope. I believe that there may be some Ontario hospitals that have more than one covid19 patient in ICU, but you have not named one yet.

Edited by oops
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2 hours ago, Petros said:

 The average family now has 1.5 children, which is not enough to replace all the baby boomers,

 

There is a reason for this average.  As to the baby boomers, I am sick and tired of listening to this SCAM!

These are stories I heard 30 years ago, and since I have never seen those same baby boomers retiring in30 years, they must be people my age, or maybe my kid's age, or maybe the unborn kids of my kid's age!  Total SCAM!

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3 hours ago, oops said:

There are a total of 1200 hospitals in Canada, and 4706 hospitalizations for covid19, 885 of them in ICU> This is an average of 4 patients per hospital, less than 1 ICU  per hospital.  Not the story you government and media would have you believe.
 

One big problem in Canada is how few spare beds we have in our hospitals. They are already stuffed to the gills with patients, along American lines, so any unexpected increase in admissions inundates them. Even ‘normal’ flu seasons are a big challenge in my local hospital. In this regard, Germany has more bed capacity than we do and is better prepared for the inevitable crises that arise from time to time. Any discussion about health care metrics in Canada should be benchmarked against countries like Germany and the Netherlands which seem to do a better job than us overall. Forget about the US - that’s too low a bar. At the very least, we should be doing better than Australia which has many of our geographic challenges. They were one of the first countries to have a national Covid plan. 

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Our healthcare system has been suffering from underfunding for years, and the lockdowns will make this much worse.

Canadian government debt, also called Canada’s “public debt,” is the liabilities of the government sector. For 2019 (the fiscal year ending 31 March 2020), total financial liabilities or gross debt was $2434 billion ($64,087 per capita) for the consolidated Canadian general government (federal, provincial, territorial, and local governments combined). This corresponds to 105.3% as a ratio of GDP (GDP was $2311 billion). Of the gross debt, $1145 billion or 47% was federal (central) government liabilities (49.6% as a ratio to GDP). Provincial government liabilities comprise most of the remaining liabilities.

Statistics Canada says debt is expected to rise significantly in 2020 due to massive new borrowing to cover expected historic deficits from measures implemented in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. As of the third quarter of 2020, the ratio of gross debt to GDP for the federal government reached 59.5% while the ratio for the federal plus other levels of government had climbed to 131.1%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_public_debt

Of course with the economy tanking it will be necessary to reduce hospital funding, and every month of restrictions makes the funding gap worse. Trudeau says that we can expect herd immunity by September. This is another 8 months, does anyone think that recognize Canada by then?

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21 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

 ....Any discussion about health care metrics in Canada should be benchmarked against countries like Germany and the Netherlands which seem to do a better job than us overall. Forget about the US - that’s too low a bar.

 

Not going to happen...comparisons to the US will always dominate health care system discussions in Canada because it is in Canada's political and cultural DNA.  The "American style" bogeyman is used to bludgeon any proposals for public/private solutions that would provide more capital spending and operating revenue despite other higher ranked nations doing exactly that (e.g. France).

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23 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Am I correct in thinking you and I are on common ground that the healthcare system needs more money?

OECD: $5,175 per person; 8.8% of GDP; 73% public/27% private.
Canada: $6,448 per person; 10.7% of GDP; 70% public/30% private.
France: $6,436 per person; 11.2% of GDP; 83% public/17% private.

https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-canadas-health-spending-compare

I'm not sure spending is the main cause. It might be that our system is simply very inefficient - in part because we have ten (13 if you include the territories) separate health care systems instead of 1 like most countries.

We have had a shortage of doctors for decades because of deliberate government policies which limit the number of spaces in medical schools and the number of residencies in hospitals. Why has no one ever assailed our governments over this?

Why do we have about 2.52 hospital beds per 100k people while France has 5.98 when we spend more per person than they do?

Edited by Argus
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23 hours ago, oops said:

I am going to go off topic a bit here, but this is what Dr. David Nabarro said about lockdowns.

So, you expect me to sacrifice the lives of my friends and families so you can gloat over the virtue signaling of some poor person in another country having greater income.  My reply to you would be in two words totally seven letters and quite rude (but appropriate).

BTW: there are just over 4,000 hospitalizations right now, with about 900 in ICUs.  You assume the 1,200 hospitals in Canada have 1,200 ICUs and that is far from the case.  Canada has under 5,000 ICU beds, so right now, 20% are tied up with Covid patients.  Load on medical staff is another and greater problem, as is supply of PPE.

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2 hours ago, cannuck said:

Canada has under 5,000 ICU beds, so right now, 20% are tied up with Covid patients.  Load on medical staff is another and greater problem, as is supply of PPE.

Sadly mismanagement of our healthcare system has left us unable to handle a crisis. Of course lockdowns have done much to fill the other 80% of ICU beds. If we had a crisis management system in place, maybe our hospital administrators would provide space for emergency, and post op patients in community centers or temporary shelters, move non critical patients to emergency rooms, and make use of the vacated beds for critical cases. Perhaps our crippled healthcare system doesn't have enough funding to hire administrators with problem solving abilities.

With irresponsible government borrowing and a diminished economy expect our ability to respond to future crises to be much less.

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On 1/17/2021 at 1:44 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not going to happen...comparisons to the US will always dominate health care system discussions in Canada because it is in Canada's political and cultural DNA.  The "American style" bogeyman is used to bludgeon any proposals for public/private solutions that would provide more capital spending and operating revenue despite other higher ranked nations doing exactly that (e.g. France).

The American system is horrendously inefficient. No serious person wants to emulate that any more. In our national CIHI reports, Canada is compared with many other countries and is found wanting in multiple areas. The world is a small place now. 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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42 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The American system is horrendously inefficient. No serious person wants to emulate that any more. In our national CIHI reports, Canada is compared with many other countries and is found wanting in multiple areas. The world is a small place now. 

 

And yet, Canadians and Canadian political parties still focus their attention on the American system to help perpetuate the starvation (under capitalization) and paralysis in the Canadian system.   More Canadian trained doctors go to the U.S. than vice versa, and Canada has a much smaller population.

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2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The American system is horrendously inefficient. No serious person wants to emulate that any more. In our national CIHI reports, Canada is compared with many other countries and is found wanting in multiple areas. The world is a small place now. 

 The US is too often used as an excuse for not making changes to our own system.

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