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Democracy Falters in the US


ReeferMadness

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19 minutes ago, Aristides said:

It will come down to how the law defines it and how courts have ruled on in the past.

Overall this protest matched the form of Trump's own words which were about peaceful protest, his words didn't give anyone cause to use force or violence, and like I said before, your false assertion that he told lies to start that protest is meaningless.

You could make the point that Giuliani or Don Jr treaded loosely around the line that shouldn't be crossed, but theirs were far from the worst examples of sedition over the past 4 years. 

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His words were (after his speech)...

"Let's march up to the Capitol and see if we can give some of the faltering Republicans some courage to do their jobs."

Not verbatim...but you can check the exact words he said in his speech. 

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34 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

His words were (after his speech)...

"Let's march up to the Capitol and see if we can give some of the faltering Republicans some courage to do their jobs."

Not verbatim...but you can check the exact words he said in his speech. 

No need to check. Your track record for honesty is enough.

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5 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

No need to check. Your track record for honesty is enough.

 

There was certainly NO talk from him about storming the building or doing ANYTHING illegal. 

Anyways...the whole thing is fucked, now. If the Democrats and their fascist troops think it's back to the old ways...think again.

Edited by DogOnPorch
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44 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

There was certainly NO talk from him about storming the building or doing ANYTHING illegal. 

Anyways...the whole thing is fucked, now. If the Democrats and their fascist troops think it's back to the old ways...think again.

It was really galling/ironic to see the Dems/CNN suddenly claiming to be the defenders of law and order. Literally nothing on earth could be further from the truth. 

Edited by WestCanMan
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3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

That's not germane to this discussion. Fact is that you can't just say that Trump is a liar for repeating things that several people testified to under oath. Get it

LMAO there you are lying gaslighting again. So now Trump was just innocently repeating the fraud claims because he heard some other people making them!  😂😂 It’s a lie HE STARTED and he even promised to tell months before the election even started.  And he continued to tell it and attack the character of even his own people after the bs claims were debunked and dismissed and then he tried to pressure all kinds ofstate and federal officials to just declare him the winner anyway. He said HE knew for a fact he won by millions of votes nationwide which is not something that would be in any local poll worker’s affidavit. You Lying liars jusr can’t stop lying. 

 

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Sure it is. Lying to achieve that end is not an established legal means though. Libel and slander are not recognized means for a legal regime change.

When Brennan, Clapper etc were saying those things to muppets who watch CNN they were creating an environment in which idiots felt justified to participate in verbal and physical attacks on members of the GOP. Members of the government were harassed, assaulted and shot. 

Last I checked nobody’s been found guilty of libel or slander, unlike all the guilty crooks uncovered and convicted  in Trump camp. And Trumps impeachment failed because the Republican senate protected him saying that all of a sudden you cannot impeach a president for minor crimes like obstruction of Justice. I guess getting a blowjob is a major crime to all those pearl-clutching conservatives 

 

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

He said "walk down to the Capitol' you liar.

Same thing moron, nice try. Also just to be clear Eric Trump also spoke to the crowd and said “Have some backbone. Show some fight. Learn from Donald Trump and we need to MARCH on the Capitol today.” Giuliani  also told them to do “trial by combat” and Trump also said fight like hell” and “Have some backbone. Show some fight. ” and 

 

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

t was half of 2014, all of 2015 and all of 2016, but they didn't instantly stop when Trump took over. The atmosphere where idiots felt like it was the will of their anointed one that there should be rioting, looting arson, cop-killing and murder didn't go away overnight. 

The riots under Trump were nowhere near 3 years long fool. Floyd was killed on May 25th and to that point there hadn't been a single riot. The Bodycam footage was leaked in early August, effectively ending the Obama's beloved riots. Only the ultra-dolts in Portland were still acting up after that.

Chaz was cleared and the BLM cops stopped murdering black kids on July 1.

This is all nonsense including your continued reference to this magic video which did absolutely nothing. 
 

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

You're wrong again, as usual.

Geez, I wonder why that is.

FYI Russia was a nobody on the international scene for over a decade before Obama came along and muttered his famous quote to Romney to the effect that: "The 1990's called - they want their Russian foreign policy back" or whatever. He was convinced that the Russians were no longer a threat and he ignored them. Nunes and the House Intel Committee warned Obi-wrong that the Russians were working hard at interfering in the US elections and Obi-wrong droned on interminably about how it was impossible. 

Then during Obama's weak and stupid terms in office, Russia bought a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of FB ads and gave Trump a victory lol (I'm joking, but a lot of completely worthless idiots actually still believe that). They also took over Crimea and some territory along their border with Ukraine. In short, they took what they wanted while Obi-wrong wrung his hands and fretted.

Russia didn't manage to sweet FA while Trump was POTUS though, aside from helping to kill islamic state, and getting a bunch of their own soldiers wasted when they approached a US base. 

I'm sure this is all news to you but you don't need to Google it all, because in stark contrast with you, I only say things that are true.

More right wing alternate reality. It’s like you never heard of the Magnitsky act which Trump tried to trade away in exchange for diet on Clinton or all the powers struggles to influence the Ukraine or the unprecedented Russian cyberattacks on the US government that just happened in recent months which to nobody’s surprise Trump tried to pin on everyone EXCEPT Russia despite all expert analysis to the contrary.  Or you don’t recall the absolute ball-washing and tongue bath Trump gave Putin in Helsinki denigrating his own US intelligence service while saying he believes a Putin over them and  praising Putin as being “very powerful”. 

 

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Blah, blah, blah (translates to "wrong, wrong, wrong", as usual).

They say a picture is worth a thousand words,

Intelligent people understand words. Idiots  only want a picture you can’t understand or put in context.   So here you go dummy 

image.gif

 

 

Edited by BeaverFever
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3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Whatever there was when Bush took over, it wasn't a large country Beave, and you know that but you are too much of a liar and Obama sycophant to admit it. Follow the numbers Beave... They go, "1, 2, 3, 4", from top to bottom.

FYI:

1) when Bush left office there was no country known as islamic state, there was an unstable Iraq which was being successfully propped by US troops (albeit at the cost of many casualties) and a stable Syria, 

 2) by Obama's own words, islamic state was "just a Jr Varsity terrorist squad" when he took office,

3) islamic state grew to be one of the 100 largest COUNTRIES on earth while Obama was POTUS,

4) by Obama's estimate it would take 5 years to get islamic state off the map.

 

In summary: islamic state was officially a Jr Varisty terrorist squad in Nov 2008, islamic state became one of the largest 100 countries in the world and they grabeed 100% of that land mass during the Obi-wrong Presidency, islamic state was on pace to remain a nation for 5 years under Obi-wrong's plan, but Trump had them whipped like dogs after 3 months and almost entirely wiped off the map within 6 months. IE, islamic state for all intents and purposes was really just a thing under Obama. 0 minutes before his Presidency and a few short months after his Presidency.

 

 

And further to another idiotic post that you had above, questioning what Trump did to stop terrorism in the US and abroad... - Trump filled Iraq and Syria with islamic state corpses and created a new world where no one puffs out their chest and says "I'm the leader of this terrorist group!" by killing all of their leaders, including Suleimani. 

When there isn't anyone bold enough to crow, there are far less people willing to 'follow'. History is rife with armies and mobs that vanished when their leaders fell. It's the norm. Bite the head off the snake. 

Don't worry Beave, you'll see soon enough what foolish & feckless leadership can do to prop up your enemies once Biden is at the helm. The contrast will be stark and very unfortunate for a lot of decent, innocent, freedom-loving people. You'll get your chance to repeat the leftist mantra: "It's too early to say whether or not islamic terrorism was to blame, this van/bomb attack is just a gun control issue right now" over and over again. 

 

Like I said before the morons who set the house on fire in the first place don’t get to play Monday morning quarterback and criticize the people who had to respond to it. Iraq was already a 6-year colossal disaster under Bush. Even if Bush found a magic wand on his last day in office and won the whole conflict that day his fraudulent war waged under false pretences would still go down as one of history’s greatest crimes and blunders.  Remember in 2003 he promised the “liberation” would last only a few months at most would wouldn’t have many casualties. The war wasn’t under control and there was no “trajectory to victory”  not that it would matter at that point anyway  

You keep side-stepping the fact that ISIS is the result of Bush’s invasion  while continually failing to point to anything that Trump did to end it.   He just happened to be president when an already declining ISIS finally ran out of steam  is all. 

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56 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

LMAO 

 

You have no shame dude. It's pathetic.

Trump knew, just like the rest of the world, that the Dems were going to commit fraud based on the fact that they're slimy liars and everyone on earth knows how much easier to commit mail-in fraud than to commit fraud right at the ballot box.

Dead people almost never show up at the ballot box, for one.

Quote

Last I checked nobody’s been found guilty of libel or slander, unlike all the guilty crooks uncovered and convicted  in Trump camp. And Trumps impeachment failed because the Republican senate protected him saying that all of a sudden you cannot impeach a president for minor crimes like obstruction of Justice. I guess getting a blowjob is a major crime to all those pearl-clutching conservatives 

And that's why I'm saying that no one will be charged with sedition. This kind of thing is tolerated in America, much like the rioting and looting and attacks on police.

Quote

Same thing moron, nice try. 

OMG you're so stupid it's just unbearable.

Anyone who has been speaking English for twenty years knows the difference between "March on the Capitol" and "Walk down to the Capitol". 

Quote

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/march on

Definition of march on

1: to come toward (a place) in order to attack it

 

Leftists need to stop using big words, and apparently in your case that's down two to four letters lol. I'm not here to be the grammar police. 

 

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8 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Like I said before the morons who set the house on fire in the first place don’t get to play Monday morning quarterback and criticize the people who had to respond to it. Iraq was already a 6-year colossal disaster under Bush.

Like I said before, nothing that you say really matters because you've been caught lying so many times.

Dubya was an actual idiot, not many people would argue that, but the rise of islamic state is all on Obama. He created the power vacuum which everyone else in the world knew would lead to trouble and then he left that Jr Varsity terrorist squad to grow unimpeded.

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He just happened to be president when an already declining ISIS finally ran out of steam  is all. 

According to one internet liar. Wow. That carries a lot of weight.

Obama himself said that it would take 5 years, I didn't pull that out of my arse like some leftist loser. He joked about Trump's impossible claim. 

Trump got the last laugh, just like I get the last laugh here.

Begone peasant.

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21 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

They used the word sedition wrong on CNN yesterday (I saw a clip of Joke Yapper), no surprises there because they're dolts at the very best, and you just copied them.

For your edification:

se·di·tion
/səˈdiSH(ə)n/
noun
  1. conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch.

 

I didn't use the noun sedition, I used the adjective seditious.  Most people would double-check before they correct someone so they don't look foolish.  Good on you for not caring.

 

Quote

Definition of seditious

 

1 : disposed to arouse or take part in or guilty of sedition
2 : of, relating to, or tending toward sedition

 

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8 hours ago, Argus said:

Pictures of protesters who entered the Capitol with zip ties, presumably to use on the politicians they got their hands on.

Pic

That guy is wearing tactical gear and a face mask obviously worn to conceal his identity.  He's not one of the "yeehadi" patsies that comprised most of the mob.  The question is whether he was there of his own volition or was he sent in.

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Today I am briefing my government that we believe with a reasonable level of certainty that Donald Trump attempted a coup

US allies are reporting that they're aware this was an attempt at a coup.

Quote

A law-enforcement official who trains with US forces believes someone interfered with the proper deployment of officers around Congress

Link

People who support this guy would normally lose their shit about stuff like this.  But the fact that people are still sticking up for him just shows there is no bottom to the level of hypocrisy.

 

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29 minutes ago, ReeferMadness said:

I didn't use the noun sedition, I used the adjective seditious.  Most people would double-check before they correct someone so they don't look foolish.  Good on you for not caring.

Lol, you're still wrong reefer.

If one is seditious they're committing the crime of sedition. Seditious still just means being one of the people who is calling for action against the government.

Do the noun fury and the adjective furious describe different states of mind? Does one mean feeling angry and the other means committing an act of violence? No, you can be furious and it doesn't mean that you're doing anything. At the point where you're demolishing things you're demolishing things while you're furious

I can't think of a single word where the noun and it's adjective form mean different things and I'm not going to rack my brain over it. (I bet you're Googling wrack right now :P)

Sedition = talking, treason = doing. 

The people in the crowds could be rebellious or treasonous, they'd only be seditious at the point in time when they're trying to get other people to do bad things but they're not doing those things themselves.

Eg, a wizened imam is telling young men that the right thing to do is to strap explosives to their torsos and go blow up government buildings so that they can go to heaven and get a bunch of virgins, while the imam stays on earth and marries their younger sisters. If you take the word 'terrorism' out of the equation then the imam is guilty of sedition and the dudes blowing themselves to hell are guilty of treason. A group of dudes with explosives strapped to them is not a seditious mob, they are a treasonous mob. 

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3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Trump knew, just like the rest of the world, that the Dems were going to commit fraud based on the fact that they're slimy liars and everyone on earth knows how much easier to commit mail-in fraud than to commit fraud right at the ballot box.

Dead people almost never show up at the ballot box, for one.

Trump is an idiot his false claims have been debunked and rejected by every authority  including Trump appointees who have e protected amd promoted this scumbag for 4 years  and would have zero reason to lie. The shrinking circle of Republicans willing to support him says it all. Anyone who continues to believe these obviously fake and ridiculous fraud claims is just a brainwashed follower and that’s a fact because when you choose to believe that Trumps word alone is infallible and the entire world must be wrong that’s all you are. 

 

4 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Anyone who has been speaking English for twenty years knows the difference between "March on the Capitol" and "Walk down to the Capitol". 

No not it’s not different at protests rally only a brainwashed retard would think otherwise.... and as I fucking told you Eric trump used the word “MARCH” anyways. DIDYOU HEAR THAT?  ERIC TRUMP SAID “MARCH”TO THE CAPITAL...not that it makes any difference 

 

4 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Dubya was an actual idiot

Of course he was he was Republican. We agree on something!

 

4 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

the rise of islamic state is all on Obama. He created the power vacuum which everyone else in the world knew would lead to trouble

No he didn’t . The power vacuum that everyone knew would lead to trouble was created when Saddam Hussein was removed from office. 

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6 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

According to one internet liar. Wow. That carries a lot of weight.

Obama himself said that it would take 5 years, I didn't pull that out of my arse like some leftist loser. He joked about Trump's impossible claim. 

Trump got the last laugh, just like I get the last laugh here.

So tell me what exactly did Trump do that wasn’t already being done?Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Bueller?

Oh wait here’s an expert analysis

Taking territory

image.thumb.jpeg.6d92969b41892b404a07b89fb73731fc.jpeg


In this map, light green territory was taken back from the Islamic State group under the Obama administration; dark green territory was taken back under the Trump administration.

https://mappingisis.com/maps/

 

In 2014, the Obama administration launched a military campaign called Operation Inherent Resolve to use U.S. and allied troops and provide aid to other groups to fight the Islamic State group.

Military, government and outside analysts agree that the campaign was successful on all fronts before Trump took office in January 2017. For instance, the U.S. envoy to the international anti-ISIS coalition testified in June 2016 – seven months before Trump became president – that the Islamic State “has lost 47% of its territory in Iraq, and 20% in Syria.”

The 72-nation coalition stated “by November 2016 Islamic State had lost 62% of its mid-2014 ‘peak’ territory in Iraq, and 30% in Syria.” And the British think tank IHS Markit reported that by the final months of Obama’s presidency, Islamic State territory in Iraq had shrunk from 40% of the country to just 10%. 

Pentagon and State Department maps further demonstrate that in the two and half years the war was fought under Obama, the Islamic State lost its only international border (with Turkey) and vast swaths of territory. They clearly show that approximately half of the Islamic State’s territory had been liberated by the time Obama left office.

image.thumb.png.449a389729ff35402f534281c6b33add.png

A Pentagon map of progress against the Islamic State by October 2016 shows the group had already lost the territory marked in green.
U.S. Department of Defense via U.S. Institute of Peace

 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.60b1f98bf42efa2afa69e46dfc435668.jpeg

In this U.S. State Department map dated December 2017, light green shows the area the Obama administration took from the Islamic State. Dark green is the area the Trump administration took in its first year in office. Red areas were still under IS control in late December 2017.
U.S. State Department
 

 


image.thumb.png.c210b64cb5aceda30f60138fbd68f955.png

Under the Obama administration, the Islamic State was driven out of most of Iraq.
Brian Glynn Williams/MappingISIS.com, CC BY-ND
 

 

Killing IS fighters

The Islamic State group also lost large numbers of fighters under Obama. In December 2016, a month before Obama’s term ended, CNN reported that the Pentagon said it had killed 50,000 militants in airstrikes since 2014, leaving no more than 15,000 Islamic State fighters to defend their collapsing state. Just weeks after Obama left the White House, Gen. Raymond Thomas, head of U.S. Special Operations Command, told a symposium in Maryland, “We have killed over 60,000 [ISIS members].”

In addition to losing territory and fighters under Obama, the Islamic State lost most of its oil-producing capacityin 2015, as a result of a massive bombing campaign known as Tidal Wave II, which drastically limited the group’s ability to fund its operations.
 

https://theconversation.com/who-really-defeated-the-islamic-state-obama-or-trump-148066

 

Edited by BeaverFever
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2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Trump is an idiot his false claims have been debunked and rejected by every authority  

Wrong. It's 100% certain that bad things happened, it's just hard to prove that it was fraud.

Quote

No not it’s not different at protests rally only a brainwashed retard would think otherwise.... and as I fucking told you Eric trump used the word “MARCH” anyways. DIDYOU HEAR THAT?  ERIC TRUMP SAID “MARCH”TO THE CAPITAL...not that it makes any difference 

:lol:

There's a really, really big difference between "March on Washington" and "March to Washington". Just because you don't understand it doesn't make a lick of difference. Grow up and admit that you're wrong again, as usual. 

FYI you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with the dictionary

Quote

No he didn’t . The power vacuum that everyone knew would lead to trouble was created when Saddam Hussein was removed from office. 

:lol:

From a random internet poster with a history of consistently lying and being wrong:

Quote

So tell me what exactly did Trump do that wasn’t already being done?Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Bueller?

From a member of the Unites States Air Force:

Quote

“The rules of engagement under the Obama administration were onerous. I mean what are we doing having individual target determination being conducted in the White House, which in some cases adds weeks and weeks,” said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. David Deptula, the former head of U.S. Air Force intelligence. “The limitations that were put on actually resulted in greater civilian casualties.”

FYI the rise of islamic state wasn't inevitable. It was the result of weakness and a glaring lack of foresight.

 

Trump inherited a world where terrorist attacks were quite normal, a massive genocide was underway, America's adversaries (NoKo, Russia, Iran, islamic state, China) were all running amok, and America was reeling from 3 years of continuous racial violence and rioting.

Terrorist attacks are quite rare now, the people who were committing genocide were obliterated, Russia has been brought to heel, NoKo is quiet, Iran is sulking, islamic state is now islamic village, even Chuck Schumer applauded Trump's dealings with China, and despite the best efforts of the Obamas/CNN and the Dems America still only managed to bring about 4 months of civil unrest in 4 years. 

Trump rocked it. 

Biden is inheriting a tidied-up world which will be unrecognizable in 4 years. 

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Reporter interviewing weeping rioter:

Ma'am, what happened to you?

"I got maced. I made it like a foot inside and they pushed me out and they maced me."

...Why did you want to go in?

"We're storming the Capitol. It's a revolution!"

 

Pussies.  A lot of other places it would have been a bayonet!

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12 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Wrong. It's 100% certain that bad things happened,

Wrong. You’re just gullible easily fooled by people you really really really want to believe no matter what. 

 

12 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

There's a really, really big difference between "March on Washington" and "March to Washington". Just because you don't understand it doesn't make a lick of difference. Grow up and admit that you're wrong again, as usual. 

FYI you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with the dictionary

LMAO no I’m arguing with an idiot who is just desperately trying to split hairs and play word games. First you idiotically said since Trump told the rioters  to “walk” to the capital and not “march” it didn’t count (even though the event was called the “Save America March”) which is stupid enough in and of itself. Then when confronted with Eric Trumps called on the mob to March ON the Capitol you’re making up another nonsense rule that says it only counts if he told them to march TO the capitol. You’re a desperate loser just like your emasculated impotent lame duck leader that foolishly worship like a god. 

 

12 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

From a member of the Unites States Air Force:

Some what some guy’s criticism of the ROE at a point in time doesn’t prove your broader point. You conveniently ignore everything else including the maps and data of territory captured and fighters killed. 

America and the white house in particular has been a chaotic  dysfunctional dumpster fire for the past 4 years . America’s  slow, long-term decline of American civilization and continued  rule by corporate oligarchy is something hat neither Trump nor Biden nor Obama can stop (or want to stop) and it’s been going on for 40 years under Republican and Democrat alike. But at least an unstable idiot won’t be disgracing the country and accelerating the decline on a daily basis with erratic and absurd policies and matching personal conduct. 

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1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Wrong. You’re just gullible easily fooled by people you really really really want to believe no matter what. 

 

LMAO no I’m arguing with an idiot who is just desperately trying to split hairs and play word games. First you idiotically said since Trump told the rioters  to “walk” to the capital and not “march” it didn’t count (even though the event was called the “Save America March”) which is stupid enough in and of itself. 

LMAO Beavie.

I'm arguing with a person who got busted for telling an extremely serious and consequential lie about the President of the USA, and who's now pretending not to believe what is plainly written for all to see in the dictionary.

It's that simple. You've turned your one lie into two lies now.

FYI "March on Washington" means "attack Washington", period. Full stop. By definition. It's as plain as the day is long.

The significance of that turn of phrase cannot be understated in light of the fact that buildings in Washington DC were attacked.

What you did was put words in the President's mouth that he absolutely did not say at all. You are the lowest form of liar that there is and that's an absolute fact. Just own it. Everyone here already knows that you're a liar anyways Beave, this is nothing new. 

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18 hours ago, bcsapper said:

"Remember this day forever!"
-- Trump tweet to rioters on Wednesday

"Like all Americans, I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness and mayhem."
-- Trump in video on Thursday

What an difference a day makes, eh?

He tosses Pence under the bus and the rioters scream to hang Pence. The next day they're tossed under the bus, too.

Whoops.

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14 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Terrorist attacks are quite rare now, the people who were committing genocide were obliterated, Russia has been brought to heel,

Brought to heel? Trump was Russia's bitch for four years terrified Putin would release the information his money laundering activities with Russian oligarchs. Russia flexes its muscles daily, grows and modernizes its military, and continues to undermine democratic countries, including the US.

14 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

NoKo is quiet,

While they further develop their nukes.

14 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Iran is sulking,

While they enrich uranium and continue to develop their nuclear program. Well, unless you count the piracy of a south korean tanker last week which they dragged back into their waters to try and blackmail south korea into releasing funds it froze due to American sanctions.

14 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

islamic state is now islamic village,

Thanks to Turkey and Russia. Trump had piss all to do with it.

14 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

even Chuck Schumer applauded Trump's dealings with China,

China continues to develop its influence around the world, grows its military, buys up foreign governments, and elbows all its neighbors while hacking every advanced technological project in America for its own people to use and develop, while using its purchasing power to influence what kind of movies are made in America and what kind of TV shows are allowed to air. As well as what is taught in American universities. Oh, and it's trade surplus with the US is bigger than it was when Trump was elected.

14 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Biden is inheriting a tidied-up world which will be unrecognizable in 4 years. 

Biden is inheriting a shit show, with American debt hugely increased even before the pandemic that Trump totally screwed up, and America's enemies on the rise while its allies shrink away from it.

Nice alternative world you live in.

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