How did the US defeat the Soviets and win the Cold War?

[August1991]

The CCP of China and Putin's Russia are both "Authoritarian States". Is America, the USA an Authoritorian State. No! 

1. Define "Authoritarian State". I have a simple definition: the Head of State changes without death or violence.

In America, the Head of State can peacefully change. In the UK, China and Russia, the Head of State only changes when someone dies or is killed.

2. The Head of State in America transfers peacefully between two people still alive., who possibly hate each other. 1798, 2016, 1960 etc, etc.

====

Billions of people around the world, ordinary people - Russians, Chinese - have seen how Americans decide their Head of State - and how this person changes.

In America, there is no stability but everyone knows what will happen.

In China and Russia, there is stability but everyone is afraid of what will happen.

In America, everyone knows there will be a President. We don't know who the President will be.

In China and Russia, people worry - like Haiti - if there will even be a president.

Edited July 9, 2021 by August1991

[Yzermandius19]

20 minutes ago, August1991 said:

The CCP of China and Putin's Russia are both "Authoritarian States". Is America, the USA an Authoritorian State. No! 

1. Define "Authoritarian State". I have a simple definition: the Head of State changes without death or violence.

In America, the Head of State can peacefully change. In the UK, China and Russia, the Head of State only changes when someone dies or is killed.

2. The Head of State in America transfers peacefully between two people still alive., who possibly hate each other. 1798, 2016, 1960 etc, etc.

not all authoritarian states interests are aligned

they are not a monolith

and the non-authoritarian states can exploit that

to divide the authoritarian states against each other

instead of against the non-authoritarian state

that is what Nixon did when he went to China

divide the Chinese against the Soviets instead of against America

and it worked

Edited July 9, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[August1991]

On 7/9/2021 at 12:15 AM, Yzermandius19 said:

going to China won the Cold War

 

No. 

Nixon going to China did not win the Cold war.

=====

The West won the Cold War because of some 50,000 guys who died in Korea and Vietnam.

Eventually, the Berlin Wall fell.

===

Everyone around the world knows this. The Berlin Wall no longer exists; and people in Vietnam use US dollars - while naming their city "Ho Chi Minh", when everyone knows it's Saigon.

We all know, names change. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by August1991

[OftenWrong]

USSR fell not due to direct military conflict but by economic failure. They were bled white as snow.

[Yzermandius19]

8 hours ago, August1991 said:

No. 

Nixon going to China did not win the Cold war.

=====

The West won the Cold War because of some 50,000 guys who died in Korea and Vietnam.

Eventually, the Berlin Wall fell.

===

Everyone around the world knows this. The Berlin Wall no longer exists; and people in Vietnam use US dollars - while naming their city "Ho Chi Minh", when everyone knows it's Saigon.

We all know, names change. 

the wall fell because Nixon went to China

Vietnam and Korea had very little to do with the fall of the wall

Vietnam in particular set America back in the Cold War

they would have been in a far better position to turn Vietnam into.an eventual ally if they never fought a war against them

the Soviets engaging in their own Vietnam in Afghanistan was a big reason they collapsed as quickly as they did

chasing after falling dominoes was a bad strategy when either side did it

Edited July 12, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[OftenWrong]

I recently came across an article that coincidentally referred to the role of the Pope in the fall of the USSR. Pope John Paul II was of Polish descent and lived through hard times under soviet rule. He specifically encouraged the Polish solidarnosk, and influenced Gorbachev to think differently on the future of Russia.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saint-John-Paul-II/Political-and-cultural-messages

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by OftenWrong

[August1991]

On 7/12/2021 at 9:00 AM, Yzermandius19 said:

the wall fell because Nixon went to China

Vietnam and Korea had very little to do with the fall of the wall

Vietnam in particular set America back in the Cold War

they would have been in a far better position to turn Vietnam into.an eventual ally if they never fought a war against them

the Soviets engaging in their own Vietnam in Afghanistan was a big reason they collapsed as quickly as they did

chasing after falling dominoes was a bad strategy when either side did it

Vietnam and Korea had everything to do with the defeat of the Soviet Union.

Could have leaders decided the battle in Korea and Vietnam better? Of course.

But make no mistake: America defeated the Soviets (the Berlin Wall fell) because of guys who fought in Korea and Vietnam, among other places.

======

Vietnam/Korea wars showed the Soviets, Maoists, Communists - like England showed Hitler at Dunkerque - that America would prevail.

Nowadays, the Soviet Union is no more. Red China is no more.

And the only communists (foolish leftists) are in America.

[August1991]

On 7/13/2021 at 8:07 PM, OftenWrong said:

I recently came across an article that coincidentally referred to the role of the Pope in the fall of the USSR....

 

The Polish Pope John-Paul and the Warsaw Pact is interesting but irrelevant.

With a healthy Andropov, the Soviet system was sustainable for a decade or two more. 

But as Thatcher famously said, ""The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

=====

Vietnam was an important battle of attrition. 

[August1991]

Just now, August1991 said:

The Polish Pope John-Paul and the Warsaw Pact is interesting but irrelevant.

With a healthy Andropov, the Soviet system was sustainable for a decade or two more. 

But as Thatcher famously said, ""The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

=====

Vietnam was an important battle in a Cold War of attrition.  Like Dunkerque - or Smolensk, to turn a phrase - the Soviets/Communists/Maoists knew that the West had courage.

 In Vietnam nowadays, people use US dollars. Why? The US dollar is a symbol of liberty. 

 

[Yzermandius19]

On 7/24/2021 at 9:03 PM, August1991 said:

Vietnam and Korea had everything to do with the defeat of the Soviet Union.

Could have leaders decided the battle in Korea and Vietnam better? Of course.

But make no mistake: America defeated the Soviets (the Berlin Wall fell) because of guys who fought in Korea and Vietnam, among other places.

======

Vietnam/Korea wars showed the Soviets, Maoists, Communists - like England showed Hitler at Dunkerque - that America would prevail.

Nowadays, the Soviet Union is no more. Red China is no more.

And the only communists (foolish leftists) are in America.

those two wars emboldened the Soviets and showed America wasn't good at picking it's battles

they prolonged the Cold War and slowed America down

those were setbacks, not victories

America won the Cold War in spite of those wars, not because of them

Edited July 26, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[August1991]

On 7/26/2021 at 5:36 PM, Yzermandius19 said:

those two wars emboldened the Soviets and showed America wasn't good at picking it's battles

they prolonged the Cold War and slowed America down

those were setbacks, not victories

America won the Cold War in spite of those wars, not because of them

Strongly disagree.

Britain did not pick Dunkerque, nor Russia choose to lose Rostov. But ultimately, Hitler lost.

To defeat an enemy, it requires - as maybe Hitler would say - the triumph of the will.

====

America won the Cold War and defeated the Soviet Union because Americans had the will.

[August1991]

Yzermandius,

Reading through your posts, I reckon that we have a different view of history - maybe life.

IMHO, if something can't continue forever, it won't.

[Yzermandius19]

5 hours ago, August1991 said:

America won the Cold War and defeated the Soviet Union because Americans had the will.

having the will has nothing to do with Vietnam or Korea

where America did not have the will to continue those wars until they won and instead packed up and went home after not winning

those wars were a waste of time and set America back in the Cold War just as Afghanistan set the Soviets back

America overcame those setbacks, but that doesn't magically make them victories

Edited July 30, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[OftenWrong]

On 7/25/2021 at 1:25 AM, August1991 said:

The Polish Pope John-Paul and the Warsaw Pact is interesting but irrelevant.

Ok. I’ll send a note to the folks at Encyclopedia Brittanica, let ‘em know.

[August1991]

On 7/30/2021 at 7:34 AM, Yzermandius19 said:

having the will has nothing to do with Vietnam or Korea

where America did not have the will to continue those wars until they won and instead packed up and went home after not winning

those wars were a waste of time and set America back in the Cold War just as Afghanistan set the Soviets back

America overcame those setbacks, but that doesn't magically make them victories

Was Dieppe a victory?

Certainly not. But it showed the enemy, and ourselves, that we were determined.

IMHO, the Vietnam War is evidence of how much Americans are prepared to go to show that they believe in what their country represents to the world.

====

Like Dieppe, eventually, the Berlin Wall fell, the Soviet Union collapsed (ran out of money) and this threat to America no longer exists.

Because, in part, of the guys who fought in Vietnam.

[Yzermandius19]

On 7/31/2021 at 10:07 PM, August1991 said:

Was Dieppe a victory?

Certainly not. But it showed the enemy, and ourselves, that we were determined.

IMHO, the Vietnam War is evidence of how much Americans are prepared to go to show that they believe in what their country represents to the world.

====

Like Dieppe, eventually, the Berlin Wall fell, the Soviet Union collapsed (ran out of money) and this threat to America no longer exists.

Because, in part, of the guys who fought in Vietnam.

Dieppe was a victory because they grabbed an enigma machine

otherwise no, it would have been a setback, just as Vietnam and Korea were

the Soviet Union's collapse had nothing to do with Vietnam, Vietnam did not help America win the Cold War, it showed America lacked resolve when it bailed on a war that wasn't a cakewalk

America's having more resolve than Soviets was shown at other times, not during Vietnam

you want the Cold War being won to be chalked up to American soldiers dying in wars, but reality doesn't comport to your narrative, that was entirely incidental to the win

Edited August 2, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

you seem to want to give credit to Democrat Presidents who prolonged the Cold War by getting involved in quagmires

while refusing to give credit to the Republican President who is most responsible for winning the Cold War

Nixon and Reagan were right

Truman, Kennedy and LBJ were wrong

Edited August 2, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[August1991]

On 8/2/2021 at 1:19 AM, Yzermandius19 said:

you seem to want to give credit to Democrat Presidents who prolonged the Cold War by getting involved in quagmires

while refusing to give credit to the Republican President who is most responsible for winning the Cold War

Nixon and Reagan were right

Truman, Kennedy and LBJ were wrong

How do you understand a totalitarian regime?

I like the Sharansky approach: thinkers and double-thinkers.

How do you deal with a totalitarian regime?

Let individuals know that they are not alone.

 

[Yzermandius19]

34 minutes ago, August1991 said:

How do you understand a totalitarian regime?

I like the Sharansky approach: thinkers and double-thinkers.

How do you deal with a totalitarian regime?

Let individuals know that they are not alone.

there are much better ways to deal with totalitarian regimes than getting involved in quagmires

the Cold War proves that

the key was to flip important allies to your side like China, bait them into quagmires like Afghanistan, and wait for their dependence on high oil prices and massive military spending to try and keep up with your side bankrupt them

Vietnam and Korea was the Soviets baiting America into quagmires, and delayed America's victory, buying into the domino theory for the fail

Edited August 4, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

1. there are much better ways to deal with totalitarian regimes than getting involved in quagmires

2. the key was to flip important allies to your side like China,

3.bait them into quagmires like Afghanistan, and wait for their dependence on high oil prices and massive military spending to try and keep up with your side bankrupt them

4. Vietnam and Korea was the Soviets baiting America into quagmires, and delayed America's victory, buying into the domino theory for the fail

1. I think that's right.
2. That was one example - were there others ?
3. Really ?  Do you think that a country that 'baited' the Soviets into Afghanistan in 1980 would have done the same thing 20 years later ?
4. I think America baited itself.  And how much the victory was 'delayed' is an open question

[OftenWrong]

14 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I think America baited itself.  And how much the victory was 'delayed' is an open question

America was fighting against the efforts of the COMINTERN. 

[Yzermandius19]

16 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. Really ?  Do you think that a country that 'baited' the Soviets into Afghanistan in 1980 would have done the same thing 20 years later ?

Yeah, that's exactly what they did

they forgot the lessons of the Cold War after 9/11 and fell for the same trap the Soviets did

Edited August 5, 2021 by Yzermandius19