The Progressive Conservatives are back

[Argus]

I don't always agree with Coyne, but I do with this. O'Toole, after tracking to the Right during the election for leader, seems to have dumped everything he said overboard and is now tracking strongly to the Left. In fact, he reminds me very much of the PC leaders of the past. No vision, no ideology, no goals other than power. He's trying to be Liberal Light, just like the PCs did. But as Coyne points out, that has never worked very well, and has left the PCs/Conservatives with little success over the decades, and even less influence. Can anyone point to anything Stephen Harper's nine years in office changed or accomplished? Any legacy? Any shifts in the policies or governance of this country not immediately reversed by his successor? I can't.  Stephen Harper ruled with one goal in mind, to stay in power. That's all he cared about. And it seems to be all O'Toole cares about.

The Conservatives would seem to occupy a unique position in Canadian political life, combining (as I’ve written before) the commitment to principle of the Liberals with the electoral success of the NDP. The party has taken each new defeat as a signal to reinvent itself yet again, jettisoning policies it had only recently adopted and adopting new ones just in time to toss them aside. It is perpetually dismayed to discover the public does not find this approach terribly persuasive – with the result that the party has neither governed much, historically, nor been particularly influential.

So unsuccessful has the party been that many Conservatives have convinced themselves the problem is not with the messengers but the message – their inability to persuade Canadians to support either their principles or the party has not been because they have generally not had any principles and done a miserable job of selling the ones they had, but because the country is innately hostile to both, party and principle. “Canada,” as more than one Conservative has put it, “is a Liberal country.” Which is, at least, a belief system, even if it’s one they share with the Liberals.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-the-tories-reinvent-themselves-again-only-this-time-as-more-of-the/

[Moonlight Graham]

I would think that if you want to govern a country it would be smart to have policies and ideology that most Canadians agree with.

I have a bunch of moderate and conservative views along with leftwing views but none of them have anything to do with the Bible.  Most Canadians don't want Alberta's BS forced on them.

[Argus]

51 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I would think that if you want to govern a country it would be smart to have policies and ideology that most Canadians agree with.

I have a bunch of moderate and conservative views along with leftwing views but none of them have anything to do with the Bible.  Most Canadians don't want Alberta's BS forced on them.

What bible stuff are you referring to? What bible stuff was forced on Canadians by any previous Conservative government? What 'bible stuff' was part of the Conservative Party's last election platform?

It seems to me that what irks you is there are some religious Christians in the Conservative Party.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Argus

[Moonlight Graham]

36 minutes ago, Argus said:

What bible stuff are you referring to? What bible stuff was forced on Canadians by any previous Conservative government? What 'bible stuff' was part of the Conservative Party's last election platform?

It seems to me that what irks you is there are some religious Christians in the Conservative Party.

Crap like Scheer and Harper refusing to march in the Pride parades, and Harper gov omitting birth control from foreign aid plans in Africa, which is one of their biggest problems if not biggest problem given HIV, birth rates, and single motherhood there.

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Crap like Scheer and Harper refusing to march in the Pride parades, and Harper gov omitting birth control from foreign aid plans in Africa, which is one of their biggest problems if not biggest problem given HIV, birth rates, and single motherhood there.

So Scheer and Harper refusing to march in a pride parade is 'forcing' their religious views on Canada? Sorry, bud, but your insisting they march, regardless of their religious views sounds like you trying to force your beliefs on them.

And I could care less about birth control in Africa. I'm not real happy our present idiot PM is pouring billions of dollars into Africa we could use to help Canadians here.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Argus

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

So Scheer and Harper refusing to march in a pride parade is 'forcing' their religious views on Canada? Sorry, bud, but you're insisting they march, regardless of their religious views sounds like you trying to force your beliefs on them.

And I could care less about birth control in Africa. I'm not real happy our present idiot PM is pouring billions of dollars into Africa we could use to help Canadians here.

If their religious views are against supporting people celebrating being LGBT then their religious views are bigoted garbage.  I don't want homophobic bigots as my PM.

What you think about African aid is irrelevant.  Our government gives foreign aid no matter what you think, and Harper, being the Christian nutjob that he is, apparently thinks Africans shouldn't wear condoms in order to prevent HIV and unwanted pregnancy.  Anyone who thinks condoms are more evil than millions dying from HIV and children living in dire poverty is insane.

[bush_cheney2004]

33 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

If their religious views are against supporting people celebrating being LGBT then their religious views are bigoted garbage.  I don't want homophobic bigots as my PM.

 

But racist blackface PMs are OK ?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

If their religious views are against supporting people celebrating being LGBT then their religious views are bigoted garbage.  I don't want homophobic bigots as my PM.

What you think about African aid is irrelevant.  Our government gives foreign aid no matter what you think, and Harper, being the Christian nutjob that he is, apparently thinks Africans shouldn't wear condoms in order to prevent HIV and unwanted pregnancy.  Anyone who thinks condoms are more evil than millions dying from HIV and children living in dire poverty is insane.

Were they against allowing the parade, or did they just not want to go themselves? I don't think anyone should be forced to go to any parade they don't want to.  I bow to no-one in my support for equality for gay people and I've never been to one.  I'm probably never going to one.

As long as their religious views are not reflected in their policy making I don't think it matters.

As with any religious person, if their views are reflected in their policy making they must never be allowed within a light year of power.

I'm with you on condoms.  I would make them mandatory.

[Nefarious Banana]

5 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I would think that if you want to govern a country it would be smart to have policies and ideology that most Canadians agree with.

A good portion of the country (the portion with all the food & fuel) don't like the policies of your Liberals.  The last Federal Election is a reflection of of their rejection.

You're a reflection of that entitled Liberal mindset.

[Moonlight Graham]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

But racist blackface PMs are OK ?

I never said that.  I can't stand Trudeau.

[Moonlight Graham]

34 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

A good portion of the country (the portion with all the food & fuel) don't like the policies of your Liberals.  The last Federal Election is a reflection of of their rejection.

You're a reflection of that entitled Liberal mindset.

Where did I say I support the Liberals?  The Liberals are vile corrupt traitors.  If there were an election today i'd likely vote CPC.  That doesn't mean I like religious nutters.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Moonlight Graham

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I never said that.  I can't stand Trudeau.

 

Well, regardless of your personal opinion of him, clearly his racist blackface past is acceptable to millions of Liberal voters.   I guess "homophobic bigots" are just lower on the political food chain ?

[Argus]

11 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

If their religious views are against supporting people celebrating being LGBT then their religious views are bigoted garbage.  I don't want homophobic bigots as my PM.

So you feel that all political leaders should be required to go to gay pride parades? Have I got that right? What about Muslims and Hindus and Orthodox Jews? What else? Attend BLM protests and bend the knee? Is that a requirement too?

11 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

What you think about African aid is irrelevant.  Our government gives foreign aid no matter what you think, and Harper, being the Christian nutjob that he is, apparently thinks Africans shouldn't wear condoms in order to prevent HIV and unwanted pregnancy.  Anyone who thinks condoms are more evil than millions dying from HIV and children living in dire poverty is insane.

The Harper government DID, in fact, fund contraceptives, just not abortion.

And I'm still waiting for you to show me how they forced their religious views on you.

[Army Guy]

11 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Were they against allowing the parade, or did they just not want to go themselves? I don't think anyone should be forced to go to any parade they don't want to.  I bow to no-one in my support for equality for gay people and I've never been to one.  I'm probably never going to one.

As long as their religious views are not reflected in their policy making I don't think it matters.

As with any religious person, if their views are reflected in their policy making they must never be allowed within a light year of power.

I'm with you on condoms.  I would make them mandatory.

That is not happening today, one large special interest group has the floor, and the attention of the public and is pushing their ideals to everyone, and if you disagree then your branded, cast to the side your ideas and opinions are labeled as garbage. Just as you have done here with religion.

I believe in god, I have attended church, does this automatically mean my opinions are to be disagreed with... religion has played a huge role in our countries development, how it was shaped, it is reflected in our laws, policies, our values even today it shapes things in this country. And now we have to abandon it because it has been replaced by other major special interest groups. Thats horse shit... when has it been acceptable to treat one group better than another.

 

 

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

That is not happening today, one large special interest group has the floor, and the attention of the public and is pushing their ideals to everyone, and if you disagree then your branded, cast to the side your ideas and opinions are labeled as garbage. Just as you have done here with religion.

I believe in god, I have attended church, does this automatically mean my opinions are to be disagreed with... religion has played a huge role in our countries development, how it was shaped, it is reflected in our laws, policies, our values even today it shapes things in this country. And now we have to abandon it because it has been replaced by other major special interest groups. Thats horse shit... when has it been acceptable to treat one group better than another.

 

 

 

Your opinions can be agreed with or disagreed with, depending on the views of those you are discussing them with.  You have no right to have them agreed with.  What you have is the right to have them, and live your life according to them.    What you don't have is the right to dictate to anyone else based on them. (Or rather, shouldn't have)

I agree all groups should be treated the same.

Edited November 14, 2020 by bcsapper

[Army Guy]

I agree everyone has the right to agree or disagree with what ever they want... just like Harper taking a pass at dancing in the streets with the gay community, and to do so without being judged. That did not happen did it ? in fact it was the gay community that started questioning why and did the government even support them and it grew from there.

 

 

Quote

What you don't have is the right to dictate to anyone else based on them

your statement below sounds like a dictation or condition to me. The gay community has dozens of new laws and policies  that protect them , please note every Canadian is already protected under our rights and laws, and yet we found the need to endorse new policies that state the same thing but included special attention to them,  so much for not having their views reflected in policy.. Sounds like a double standard.  

 

Quote

As long as their religious views are not reflected in their policy making I don't think it matters.

   

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I agree everyone has the right to agree or disagree with what ever they want... just like Harper taking a pass at dancing in the streets with the gay community, and to do so without being judged. That did not happen did it ? in fact it was the gay community that started questioning why and did the government even support them and it grew from there.

 

 

your statement below sounds like a dictation or condition to me. The gay community has dozens of new laws and policies  that protect them , please note every Canadian is already protected under our rights and laws, and yet we found the need to endorse new policies that state the same thing but included special attention to them,  so much for not having their views reflected in policy.. Sounds like a double standard.  

 

   

Like I said above, I have never been to a Gay Pride parade.  If the gay community wants to take umbrage with that, they can do what they want, it won't bother me.  I still won't go.  I can't stop people judging, regardless of the side of the political divide they come from.  I'll just disagree with them.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the rest.  No laws should be made based on religion, and everyone should follow the same laws.  We seem to agree and disagree in parts.

[SpankyMcFarland]

The political marketplace is what it is. If you want to try and sell a platform way to the right, prepare for nobody to buy it. I suspect there may be room for deep right populist, Trumpian ideas, e.g. anti-immgration, anti-free trade, but out-and-out libertarianism isn’t going to fly. Despite flirting with the Christian crowd during the leadership contest, O’Toole sounds reasonable again, closer to the traditional Chrétienist centre of Candian politics than Trudeau, more concerned about deficits and reassuringly dull. I would consider voting for him. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by SpankyMcFarland

[Argus]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The political marketplace is what it is. If you want to try and sell a platform way to the right, prepare for nobody to buy it.

Way to the right? Can you even name one right wing policy the Tories had in their platform last election?

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I suspect there may be room for deep right populist, Trumpian ideas, e.g. anti-immgration,

Anti-immigration is not a Trumpian idea. Immigration and migration have been upsetting growing numbers of people across Europe, America and Canada for several years, mainly because the elites in charge have sneered at their concerns and ignored them. Trump simply took advantage of that existing sentiment.

 

[Army Guy]

5 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Like I said above, I have never been to a Gay Pride parade.  If the gay community wants to take umbrage with that, they can do what they want, it won't bother me.  I still won't go.  I can't stop people judging, regardless of the side of the political divide they come from.  I'll just disagree with them.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the rest.  No laws should be made based on religion, and everyone should follow the same laws.  We seem to agree and disagree in parts.

My entire point is this, IF no laws should be based on religion, then to be fair across the board no laws should be based on any other special interest group, such as the gay community, which have dozens of laws and policies written strictly for them.. they are after all they are covered by the same laws and policies as every other Canadian is. 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

My entire point is this, IF no laws should be based on religion, then to be fair across the board no laws should be based on any other special interest group, such as the gay community, which have dozens of laws and policies written strictly for them.. they are after all they are covered by the same laws and policies as every other Canadian is. 

 

I agree.  Which laws are those specifically?  I'm against hate laws, which I am led to believe do apply based on sexual orientation as well as other things.

[Moonlight Graham]

11 hours ago, Argus said:

So you feel that all political leaders should be required to go to gay pride parades? Have I got that right? What about Muslims and Hindus and Orthodox Jews? What else? Attend BLM protests and bend the knee? Is that a requirement too?

If you represent Canadians as the PM you could bother to swing by at least one of the parades, especially if all the other parties are.

If you disagree with homosexuality you're a turd bigot and your religious beliefs shouldn't be a cover for it.  In several Muslim countries homosexuals are put to death.

[Moonlight Graham]

20 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Well, regardless of your personal opinion of him, clearly his racist blackface past is acceptable to millions of Liberal voters.   I guess "homophobic bigots" are just lower on the political food chain ?

Trudeau has an approval rating lower than Trump's.  When the choice is between mr. blackface and Andrew Scheer of Nazareth I guess voters flipped a coin.

[Army Guy]

14 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I agree.  Which laws are those specifically?  I'm against hate laws, which I am led to believe do apply based on sexual orientation as well as other things.

There is the hate laws , discrimination laws, now gender identification laws, etc . Why do we as a people need to list out every person or group that we can or can not discriminate against, or what ever , do we now need to include all the different genders, and people who think they are planes, trains and automobiles , are we not smart enough to just not discriminate, or hate. I guess not , as for religion i get it not everyone practices it , but our morals and values are based upon our religion, many of our laws are based on religion, religion has played a major role in shaping our country.  while it plays more of a faded role today, do we need to cancel it all together ?

 

[Guest]

There are gender identification laws?  I'm probably going to break those.  I'm not going to be doing any studying.

I can see laws against discrimination.  One can cross the street if one wants.  I don't think there would be arrests for that, but refusing service or making hiring preferences based on who or what a person is should not be allowed.  I mean, that can come back to haunt you pretty quickly.

Nobody says you have to cancel religion.  I don't know how I can make this any clearer.  Go ahead and practice your religion.  Don't have a homosexual relationship.  Pray five times a day.  Don't commit suicide with the help of a medical professional.  Go to Church on Sundays.  Don't eat beef, change your sex, commit adultery, have an abortion, eat meat on Fridays, blaspheme, eat pork, etc. 

Just don't try and make anyone else do what you do, if they have indicated they would rather not.

Edited November 15, 2020 by bcsapper