Wet Got Bigger Problems Than George Floyd

[Infidel Dog]

This was mentioned earlier by somebody but why didn't the case of Minneapolis cop Mohamed Noor shooting the  women in her pyjamas cause a race riot?

 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6758077/Minneapolis-cop-killed-Australian-woman-pointed-gun-driver-traffic-stop.html

I already know the answer, of course, and so do those of you who are honest with yourselves. It wasn't because blacks are a special sort of victim. It was because they're told they are.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Infidel Dog

[Infidel Dog]

Quote

What are the facts about the extremely high rate of African American victims? One might get the impression from the energetic campaigns of Black Lives Matter that African Americans are murdered by white racists, especially police. But, according to the FBI, in 2013, of the 2,491 “Black or African American” murdered, 189 were murdered by “whites,” 20 by “other,” 37 by “unknown,” and 2,245 by “Black or African American.” In other words, in 2013, 90.12% of African Americans murdered were murdered by other African Americans.

The years since are much the same, e.g. in 2018 , of 2,925 African Americans murdered, 2,600 or 89% were murdered by other African Americans. It is difficult to attribute this to white racism. And while in 2013, 189 African Americans were murdered by whites, 409 whites were murdered by African-Americans. In cross-race murders, more than twice as many whites have been murdered as African Americans. 

The other side of the coin is that 48% of all murders are committed by African Americans, more than three times what would be expected from African-Americans’ 13% of the population. So African Americans are involved in the most serious crime, either as victims or perpetrators, at a rate that far exceeds other American communities. This cannot be considered a direct effect of anti-African American racism.

African Americans, like all Americans, have choices and make decisions. They are not automatons mechanically reacting to an adverse environment. African Americans have agency, select their goals, and act to achieve them. Most African-Americans do not choose to engage in crime; most choose to become productive citizens. 

But too many African Americans do choose to engage in crime, and too many African-Americans have been their victims. How has Black Lives Matter addressed this sad fact? What campaigns are they carrying out to correct this catastrophic loss of their fellow citizens?

Why is Black Lives Matter shouting “racism” rather than looking at the difficulties in their community? It is the African-American community that needs emergency aid. How will increasing race bating and fueling the fire of race hatred contribute to healing the black community? 

https://pjmedia.com/columns/philip-carl-salzman/2020/05/31/who-kills-african-americans-n472072

[Hal 9000]

The cop that eventually killed the guy was white, but none of the other 3 cops were white.

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

1. This was mentioned earlier by somebody but why didn't the case of Minneapolis cop Mohamed Noor shooting the  women in her pyjamas cause a race riot?
2. I already know the answer, of course, and so do those of you who are honest with yourselves. It wasn't because blacks are a special sort of victim. It was because they're told they are.

1. I can take this example back to you - why don't people complain that people are shot in their pajamas too often ?  Maybe because it's not perceived as something that happens so often that it's a problem.
2. And yet the same media gets a pass if they play up a single murder from an illegal immigrant ?  

Which racial group should get the luxury of being over sensitive about their people getting murdered, do you think ?

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

Why is Black Lives Matter shouting “racism” rather than looking at the difficulties in their community? 

And the difficulties have nothing to do with racism, of course... am I right ?  They are just ... I don't know finish the sentence ... genetically inferior ?  Unhealthily focussed on their poverty and lack of resources allocated to ....

I don't know... What do you think ?

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I can take this example back to you - why don't people complain that people are shot in their pajamas too often ?  Maybe because it's not perceived as something that happens so often that it's a problem.

I saw some data here that shows this perception to be false; more "whites" killed by police. It only makes sense given the population.

But I do not believe that data. It too is false.

Instead of by skin colour, it should be compared by level of poverty, education, and social factors like being raised with a father, etc. I believe in these things more.

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by OftenWrong

[Independent1986]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

And the difficulties have nothing to do with racism, of course... am I right ?  

You are insulting minorities and immigrants in my case that succeeded in life through hard work and struggle.

Some of us experienced racism, some of us experienced homelessness to get personal through bad luck and other factors. Thank God I did not meet people like you or some socialist on the other side to keep repeating the big lie that the reason I am not succeeding is because of the system. I was lucky in that aspect and it never once crossed my mind to steal or do something illegal for my benefit. Is funny what happens when you put your mind to being productive. My first job was as a dishwasher in a pizza place now I can walk anytime I want and buy a take out meal without worrying for the cost.

This arrogance comes from people from both the left and right, people that got everything handed to them on a silver plate, never struggled for a dime and they feel so superior lecturing everyone else on what their problems is. It might work for people that are too afraid and they buy your big lie. Many more however will get up today and look for opportunities to become successful. That is the beauty of our western system, it gives opportunity to everyone. Is up to the individual if they want to take it.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Independent1986

[Michael Hardner]

59 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

1. I saw some data here that shows this perception to be false; more "whites" killed by police. It only makes sense given the population.

2. But I do not believe that data. It too is false.

3. Instead of by skin colour, it should be compared by level of poverty, education, and social factors like being raised with a father, etc. I believe in these things more.

 

1. Exactly right, this is about perception.
2. Why do you think that ?
3. Your beliefs ?  Ok.  Skin colour does matter, but perceptions matter more.  

Welcome to politics.

[Boges]

This narrative that white people are killed at a higher percentage is a red herring. Even if it was relevant, it should just bolster the idea that Cops are just trigger happy thugs and their authority needs to be checked. 

I think when Whitey, in all his/her privilege says that a POC's fear when they encounter police is statistically unfounded, they're not being helpful. 

We have two incidents of outright murder of POCs at the hands of police. (George Floyd and Breonna Taylor)  Show the example of an innocent white person being murdered by the police that somehow minimizes the outrage of such events. 

The other narrative that isn't helpful is talking about property. The Spike Lee movie Do the Right Thing is a litmus test on Racism. 

SPOILER ALERT!!!!

Do you find the murder of Radio Raheem more upsetting or the destruction of the Pizza Parlour? The riots that ensued when Radio Raheem gets murder often is what is more unsettling about the end of that movie and it shows that often white people consider private property more important than the lives of POCs. 

Why are Right-Wing talking heads more outraged that a Target got looted than a man getting choked out over 9 minutes or a front-line worker getting murdered in her own home? 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Boges

[OftenWrong]

56 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. Why do you think that ?

Read my post as a single cohesive statement and the answer will reveal itself.

 

As I said about two posts up, what would cops do to an old grandmother black lady doing this instead, would they shoot her in the head right away? No. Probably not. I said other stuff earlier that was pretty good too.

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

1. Read my post as a single cohesive statement and the answer will reveal itself.

2. As I said about two posts up, what would cops do to an old grandmother black lady doing this instead, would they shoot her in the head right away? No. Probably not.

1. Ok, I see.  I imagine if you look hard enough at sociological studies (and understand that there will be studies that contradict each other, so try to look at a wide sample) you will get some
answers.
2. Comforting: "Hey Mick, should we shoot this old black grandmother in the head right away ?" "Nah, let's take her down to the station and shoot her there." 

[Boges]

8 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

This was mentioned earlier by somebody but why didn't the case of Minneapolis cop Mohamed Noor shooting the  women in her pyjamas cause a race riot?

 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6758077/Minneapolis-cop-killed-Australian-woman-pointed-gun-driver-traffic-stop.html

I already know the answer, of course, and so do those of you who are honest with yourselves. It wasn't because blacks are a special sort of victim. It was because they're told they are.

Well he was charged with 2nd Degree murder. 

The George Floyd killer wasn't even charged with 2nd Degree Murder. 

BTW, I remember this was news. It speaks to the same problem. 

[Michael Hardner]

This is being shared now, and is the prevailing perception among African Canadians (I am assuming "we" means Canadians).  It's all well and good to ask people to "look at the data" but as I said, that is a good way to tell someone to f*** off.  I know because I do it constantly.

[Hal 9000]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

This is being shared now, and is the prevailing perception among African Canadians (I am assuming "we" means Canadians).  It's all well and good to ask people to "look at the data" but as I said, that is a good way to tell someone to f*** off.  I know because I do it constantly.

Are we comparing white vs. black or male to female?  

[Independent1986]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

more outraged that a Target got looted than a man getting choked out ?

Not all of us are right wing, who is more outraged than who ? Is the murderer cop walking around free ? Last time I checked he was charged with third degree murder ?

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

This arrogance comes from people from both the left and right, people that got everything handed to them on a silver plate, never struggled for a dime and they feel so superior lecturing everyone else on what their problems is. It might work for people that are too afraid and they buy your big lie. Many more however will get up today and look for opportunities to become successful. That is the beauty of our western system, it gives opportunity to everyone. Is up to the individual if they want to take it.

I recall the lectures I've been given that explain how thousands of people on the coast lost their livelihoods and business' when salmon fishing collapsed how this hard-working self-made billionaire wound up with 40% of the coastwide quota in his pocket.  All you need to succeed is a more powerful lobbyist. Good to know.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Independent1986 said:

Not all of us are right wing, who is more outraged than who ? Is the murderer cop walking around free ? Last time I checked he was charged with third degree murder ?

Took a few days. And the other cops that cared more about people filming than their co-worker committing murder are still free. 

I'm not going to speak to the outrage the POC feels to this. I've never feared for my life when seeing a cop.

These fears are certainly based on experience many POC have. And politely protesting doesn't seem to ever stop it. So I can understand the outrage.  

[Hal 9000]

I actually believe that it's not about racism so much as it's about the douche bag or skid quotient.  I think what happened to Floyd could easily happen to a white guy if he was perceived as a skid.  As an anecdote, I worked in finance for a number of years and you constantly have people lying to you and evading their debts.  Pretty soon you start to look at most people as deadbeats and begin to prejudge them for eg. A 20 YO minimum wage worker is more likely to pay back their loan than a 30 YO cabbie (that's a fact) etc etc.  So yes, the stereotyping is there, but arrived at from facts.  A cop sees skids every day, and regardless of skin colour, he'll perceive you as either a skid or not a skid.

P.S - None of this means that racism is not real, or that the cop that killed that guy wasn't racist, just simply that you don't have to be black to become the victim of police brutality. 

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

This narrative that white people are killed at a higher percentage is a red herring. Even if it was relevant, it should just bolster the idea that Cops are just trigger happy thugs and their authority needs to be checked. 

I think when Whitey, in all his/her privilege says that a POC's fear when they encounter police is statistically unfounded, they're not being helpful. 

We have two incidents of outright murder of POCs at the hands of police. (George Floyd and Breonna Taylor)  Show the example of an innocent white person being murdered by the police that somehow minimizes the outrage of such events. 

The other narrative that isn't helpful is talking about property. The Spike Lee movie Do the Right Thing is a litmus test on Racism. 

SPOILER ALERT!!!!

Do you find the murder of Radio Raheem more upsetting or the destruction of the Pizza Parlour? The riots that ensued when Radio Raheem gets murder often is what is more unsettling about the end of that movie and it shows that often white people consider private property more important than the lives of POCs. 

Why are Right-Wing talking heads more outraged that a Target got looted than a man getting choked out over 9 minutes or a front-line worker getting murdered in her own home? 

If you go back and look at this again I think you'll see some things that you'd reconsider.

Quote

I think when Whitey, in all his/her privilege

You need to stick that idiotic "white privilege" comment where the sun doesn't shine. My family has fought in wars and worked in coal mines and sawmills and all those fun things that are not the result of privilege. On average the people in my family work more than 40 hrs/week. If your family is part of some racist group that conveys privileges to it's members then you can speak to that personally but don't include me in it, thanks. 

Quote

says that a POC's fear when they encounter police is statistically unfounded, they're not being helpful. 

No one is comfortable dealing with police. Flynn though that he could trust the FBI, they were crooked AF. You always have to be very mindful of what you say and just remember that getting wrongfully thrown in jail isn't the worst thing that can happen to you.

Quote

Show the example of an innocent white person being murdered by the police that somehow minimizes the outrage of such events. 

Are you honestly saying that you've never seen the police murder a white person? 

I don't go looking for such things but I can recall 4 right now and I know there are more.

The police in Vancouver were even caught in Canada murdering "a white person" a few years ago and they hardly ever kill anyone in Canada. Then there was the Dazanski thing in the airport where after 10 hrs the cops never thought to try to find someone who could speak polish, they eventually killed that guy. For some reason they didn't have someone working at the 3rd largest international airport in Canada that could translate. They didn't have anyone on call. It's stupid. 

Quote

Why are Right-Wing talking heads more outraged that a Target got looted than a man getting choked out over 9 minutes or a front-line worker getting murdered in her own home? 

This is just counter-productive drivel that comes from people whose pov is maxed at about 8 feet. 

The rioting and the incident are two separate things. Just because one is wrong doesn't mean both are wrong.

There was never a need for any rioting at all over the Michael Brown shooting. He was a violent person who tried to take the gun from a cop in his car. He would have been shot if he was a white Senator from a wealthy old-money family. But the victim narrative is so sexy and so powerful that the media can't resist.

Until we get to see footage that goes right from the start of this situation to the end we'll never really know what happened. We see a bit, then we don't see anything until he's on the ground. He must have resisted at some point but we don't see it.

That doesn't mean that the cops didn't kill him, because they clearly did, but right now people are responding to a guy who was on his best behaviour for the whole time and 52 years of life experience tells me that's not the case either. I've seen plenty of videos that are edited to make police look bad. It's a full-time job for some people. I've even seen video of what some people consider police abuse where the police are being yelled at and wrestled with the whole time. SOme people just don't understand that being a cop isn't super-duper easy.

Remember when, just a few months ago, it was considered sporting to throw water on police? Did you see the videos of cops leaving when people were dousing them? There are a-holes on both sides of this story, more on one than the other. 

[Shady]

16 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I guess you can call antifa alt-left.  They're not an organization though.

Yes they are.  They have websites.  You can donate money to them.  They're more of an organization than the KKK.

[New World Disorder]

10 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

There is racism in America (and Canada too, for that matter) and sure, that sucks, but it isn't institutionalized. White cops aren't cruising the streets looking for blacks to shoot as a matter of policy or even as a general rule.

Yet somehow we're being brain-trained to believe that's the case. If we could somehow put the kibosh on that lie the commies of BLM would be neutered and the commies

of antifa wouldn't have race riots to hide in. That's my point.

Stop n Frisk. NYC is a perfect example of institutionalized racism.

[Rue]

8 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

I actually believe that it's not about racism so much as it's about the douche bag or skid quotient.  I think what happened to Floyd could easily happen to a white guy if he was perceived as a skid.  As an anecdote, I worked in finance for a number of years and you constantly have people lying to you and evading their debts.  Pretty soon you start to look at most people as deadbeats and begin to prejudge them for eg. A 20 YO minimum wage worker is more likely to pay back their loan than a 30 YO cabbie (that's a fact) etc etc.  So yes, the stereotyping is there, but arrived at from facts.  A cop sees skids every day, and regardless of skin colour, he'll perceive you as either a skid or not a skid.

P.S - None of this means that racism is not real, or that the cop that killed that guy wasn't racist, just simply that you don't have to be black to become the victim of police brutality. 

I suspect you are dead on Hal but the problem is when you kill someone black and you are white the added perception is like a flame to gasoline and trying to then put the fire out once its lit is the damn problem.

I just do not know what to tell you.  So much emotion is triggered. Racists use it as a platform. Extremist agitators use it as a platform. Angry citizens with their own distrust of police for many reasons get triggered and police get triggered.  Its a vivious cycle. For a lot of cops when they see this shit they get even more paranoid then they were before tensing them up and making them over-react on the most routine stops with black people when they are white and vice versa black people are all tensed up about any ecounter with white cops. How to de-escalate that cycle of negative reaction which spins into further bad behaviour is the issue. It requires long term solutions of course, but in the short term people need to see tangible signs to cool off. Sometimes that requires a politician doing that. Trump certainly does not. Sometimes it requires leaders all sides respect saying cool it. We don't seem to see people like that emerging. Sometimes a musician or actor  or sports figure tries but hey have limited effect and some of them simply use it for their own personal agendas.

 

 

[Rue]

8 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

Stop n Frisk. NYC is a perfect example of institutionalized racism.

Is it only used against blacks or anyone that looks poor in which case then Eye's blaming it on capitalism raises its ugly head which was his point. Is it a class war or a race war or both?

I think with respect to you stop n frisk targetted anyone who looked homeless or was panhandling and was designed to take them off the streets to protect tourism in New York in Manhattan.

[Boges]

24 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

You need to stick that idiotic "white privilege" comment where the sun doesn't shine. My family has fought in wars and worked in coal mines and sawmills and all those fun things that are not the result of privilege. On average the people in my family work more than 40 hrs/week. If your family is part of some racist group that conveys privileges to it's members then you can speak to that personally but don't include me in it, thanks. 

Perhaps you should educate yourself with Red-lining and how it created a level of privilege and way for white people to accumulate wealth and banned POC from benefitting from Real Estate and Land ownership. 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/redlining.asp

For centuries, white people have had a huge head start. 

My parents are immigrants and have worked very hard to achieve what they have. But to ignore that they had an upper hand because of things that preceded them is willful ignorance. 

Quote

No one is comfortable dealing with police. Flynn though that he could trust the FBI, they were crooked AF. You always have to be very mindful of what you say and just remember that getting wrongfully thrown in jail isn't the worst thing that can happen to you.

Are you honestly saying that you've never seen the police murder a white person? 

Nope, but were those murders racial motivated? And where those murders seen as excusable? Poor Micheal Flynn, he was making deals regarding sanctions before Trump even took office and got caught. Apparently, that's illegal. 

Quote

I don't go looking for such things but I can recall 4 right now and I know there are more.

Then don't go around saying that Cops treat white people the same. You just ignore the fear POC have when dealing with police.

Quote

The police in Vancouver were even caught in Canada murdering "a white person" a few years ago and they hardly ever kill anyone in Canada. Then there was the Dazanski thing in the airport where after 10 hrs the cops never thought to try to find someone who could speak polish, they eventually killed that guy. For some reason they didn't have someone working at the 3rd largest international airport in Canada that could translate. They didn't have anyone on call. It's stupid. 

That was a huge story. Spoke to how poorly some police are at deescalating situations. 

Quote

The rioting and the incident are two separate things. Just because one is wrong doesn't mean both are wrong.

Not when the murders are what caused the riots. 

Quote

Until we get to see footage that goes right from the start of this situation to the end we'll never really know what happened. We see a bit, then we don't see anything until he's on the ground. He must have resisted at some point but we don't see it.

Ahhh so you're still holding out hope that George Floyd did something to deserved what happened to him. That's very telling. 

Quote

That doesn't mean that the cops didn't kill him, because they clearly did, but right now people are responding to a guy who was on his best behaviour for the whole time and 52 years of life experience tells me that's not the case either. I've seen plenty of videos that are edited to make police look bad. It's a full-time job for some people. I've even seen video of what some people consider police abuse where the police are being yelled at and wrestled with the whole time. SOme people just don't understand that being a cop isn't super-duper easy.

The video in question was 9 minutes un-edited. This is actually what bugs me about the Conservative response to all this. They always deserve what happened to them. They must have been completely agreeable to what a cop wanted, if not he deserved to die. HE WAS UNARMED AND CONTROLLED. 

As mentioned in another thread, this is just the inciting incident. Obviously The US has reached the breaking point. IMHO the Breonna Taylor murder is even more troubling. She was in her own home!

Quote

Remember when, just a few months ago, it was considered sporting to throw water on police? Did you see the videos of cops leaving when people were dousing them? There are a-holes on both sides of this story, more on one than the other. 

Ahhh poor cops with guns got water thrown on them. I guess they should be given a cookie for not resorting to murder. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Boges

[Rue]

14 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

I will like to hear your opinion about this, I am willing to learn as Ayn Rand says: “If you don't know, the thing to do is not to get scared, but to learn.”  I think the first 7 years of a child's life are the most important, it is the time when he/she absorbs information that will stay ingrained in the brain. 

Lots of opportunities were denied to African Americans resulting in poverty to this day and as a result of this lots of families ended up with no father figure or broken family structure. 

I grew up without my father and I remember always I used to look around for someone, a role model to learn from, I think every kid does, is it an instinct and when nobody is there you look at people that "achieved success, fast" without any hard work and it becomes attractive.

Isn't appropriate to bring up an argument that also the entertainment industry holds some responsibility. Millions of dollars are made through songs that are promoting violence and shootings. They make money and kids end up in jail or in the ground. 

I will quote from my Jewish Friend: "Jewish youngsters after WW2 when they arrived in America and Canada started becoming active in gang life". The Jewish elders which were the role models at the time had a lot of power in the community and managed to turn things around. That comes from him, not me, so I can't verify what he is saying is true. And where is the Jewish community today ? Lawyers, doctors, politicians, etc.

But then you can argue that the entertainment is created by the people, is what we want, there is no easy answer and who exactly draws the line what is acceptable and not ? Because then you can go to the other side of religious rule which also not good. Time to sleep been a long week all this agitation in the world is not helping.

All I can say is positive change begins when we decide at an individual level not because we are ordered to by anyone let alone government. I myself don't buy into crime as being excused because of being poor. That is too simplistic. Certainly crime can become an alternative commercial source of finance to those who feel they have no fair chance to make it in legitimate business dealings but why is it you have two guys that come out of the same poverty, one is a terrorist the other a doctor, one a legitimate businessman, the other a "made" man, one a cop, one a bank robber, one a priest the other a pimp? 

I appreciate environment shapes our lives, but so surely does an inner voice inside us? Am I naive about that? Am I naive to believe anyone can pull their way out of shit?  Where should our compassion lie? Should it lie with people who have tried and failed or people who have never tried at all/ 

These are complex issues. So all I can say Indy is we shouldn't use social issues as an excuse to avoid responsibility for our individual choices, but on the other hand we both know a guy with a job and some feeling of self decency because he works, is less likely to commit crimes.

I have no answer for you on how much a government should play a positive role in helping people and how much of a role people should play in helping others and themselves other than to say both can help.

I do agree with FDR's new deal for example. I think that prevented far worse issues but I can also see how a permanent new deal could cause the opposite effect of what it intended as well.

Balance. How do you find that balance.

In regards to racism, I have no answers. I can only speak for myself. I have experienced bigotry like you and many others but I can only explain how I dealt with it. I can't presume to know how others deal with such crap. All I know expressed with humility is I had to learn to not be so damn angry and ignore a lot of people I would otherwise react to. I had to learn to believe in myself and not allow others to define me.  Those are abstract things I still work on of course but help when you think you live in a hostile word that has no respect for you. If you don't respect yourself first, of course you think the world does not respect you. You project it outwards. At least I think so. So self-esteem..how do you build that. Black or white if you don't have a strong family, strong faith values, a belief in something bigger than you out there, I am not sure how you go about finding that self esteem. Seems to be  people who are racist over compensate for their own feelings of self loathing and people who face racism might at times over react if they do not feel confident in themselves and need to learn how to feel strong so when the ignorance comes it rolls off them easy.

Easy for me to say.